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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/5/2006 8:39:13 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

LOL I love something I read on the Butchmann's website years ago.
Paraphrased
A Master is not always right, but the slave does not submit to the Master's rightness, they submit to the Master.
Obedince is not contingent on the Master being right.

I pulled this out of another thread so as not to hijack.

Suppose a Master told His slave to rob a bank, spread a disease, kill someone, etc. I realized this is extreme but it leaves room for a great gray area of discussion. Where does one draw the line at following a direct order from her Master / Dominant?

Well I think common sense would be a good starting point...Tempting

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/5/2006 9:08:21 PM

Celeste43

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This is why the rules in my relationship are tiered. Some are more important than others. If a lesser rule violates a more important one, then I'm to draw his attention to the problem.

Being a moral person is one of the important rules. So if I was given too much change in a store and he told me to keep it, I would remind him that doing so broke a more important rule.

But overall, I wouldn't be with someone who didn't have the same morals and values that I do.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/5/2006 9:14:20 PM

RiotGirl

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i obey myself before i obey anyone else. I have loyalty to me, before i give it to anyone else. I trust myself, before i trust anyone else.

So no, i dont obey the Master first and foremost, i obey myself. If the Master asked me to do something that was wrong; obeying would break trust, loyalty and obedience to myself. No one is worth more to me then myself. i will always be true to myself first. In the end, when all said is done, all i will have is myself and if i have broken my trust, broken my loyalty and not been true to myself - i will have nothing.

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 12/5/2006 9:18:03 PM >

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/5/2006 9:52:54 PM

ShreveportMaster

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Tal and greetings all,
The answers here are remarkably similar, and quite cogent. It boils down to first, making sure your Master is indeed first and foremost in control of Himself. (I.E. He is not drunk, under the influence of some type of substance temporarily altering His brain chemistry, having a Psycho-Motor Fugue, etc) Also, for many slaves who are religious it also falls in line with first being surrendered unto God, and then to their Master. If the slaves Master ordered her to do something that her faith forbids, then obviously that is going to result in obedience to God over the Owner. Again, the advice I have given so many times comes into play, before you surrender everything you are to this Man, truly get to know Him as well as humanly possible, ask, ask and ask more questions, and if you are not totally comfortable with the answers you are getting...RUN, don't walk to the nearest exit. Anyone who would have a slave robbing banks, spreading disease,etc has no business owning a houseplant, let alone another human being. And finally, just about all Men I know want an intelligent girl, since she is presupposed to have a good mind, she would be expected to use it.

I wish you well,
Shreve

_____________________________

"And to sooth the Bosk, there was found a Singing Cowboy. To soothe the Cowboy, a kajira is needed."

Riders of Gor
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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 2:50:12 AM

julietsierra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme

Suppose a Master told His slave to rob a bank, spread a disease, kill someone, etc. I realized this is extreme but it leaves room for a great gray area of discussion. Where does one draw the line at following a direct order from her Master / Dominant?

Well, it's pretty simple to me. I have a limit in place that takes care of that pretty easily. My limit is that I don't do anything that's unhealthy for me. Beat my ass till it turns purple and my biggest problem is sitting down. Sitting down or not, does not cross my line of poor health, so it's great.

Robbing a bank, killing someone, spreading diseases (which would infer that I too would have to catch that disease) and the like would definitely be contrary to good health, and so, out of bounds for me.

How hard is that?

juliet

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 3:25:21 AM

MrrPete

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Right on kyst.

Having spent more than one hitch in the Navy weswear an oath to obey the orders of our superiors BUT they have to be LAWFUL orders. "I was just following orders" doesn't cut it.

For disobeying an order you will still have to face the music at Capt.'s Mast or a courts-martial.

I personally wouldn't give my obedient woman an unlawful command

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 3:25:30 AM

bandit25

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I agree with most here also. My biggest problem with "blindly" obeying is that people can and do change. Of course, we all try and find the "ideal" dom (or sub)...the one who is right for us; however, it doesn't always happen. I'd either do something or I wouldn't...pretty much sums it up.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 4:46:06 AM

SusanofO

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I love this question; it's a great question, and I loved the way you phrased it.

I don't have "the answer" (everyone's opinion will be different on this question, I am pretty sure - but some will maybe say: "I'd never get involved with anyone whom I wasn't sure didn't share my values" (which is a pretty good way to go, I guess. I'd look for someone who shared mine too, as far as one can ever be "sure" about that kind of thing).

Except - that if that's the case, then you never really have to answer this question, do you? (at least not in a "real-life" context). Because you're never in a situation where someone would be asking you to do anything you considered "wrong." Because you're with somebody (supposedly) "just like you" (or a lot like you) as far as "morals" go. Which is probably a good thing. But - how do you find that out? (Besides time with them and talking about things, I mean?)

I also like this question particularly because - there are things that I think are wrong that aren't necessarily against the law, and some things that are against the law that I think aren't wrong - and so if someone says: "Well, if it's against the law, then I don't do it, or ask anyone else to do it" - then I sometimes think to myself: "Well okay, but - isn't there any scenario you can imagine where something that's "legally okay" might still be "morally challenging"? (or vice-versa)?

Can't your Master think of one "what if this particular instance happened and I asked you to ______. What do you think I'd do? What would you do?" scenario? Or can you? I am meaning no disrespect, btw (I just really want to know why "the law", which is perhaps the entire reason some people feel forced to keep their bdsm lives "hidden" sometimes, is held up as the main reason to do or not to do X___________(besides the fact that disobeying it can sometimes land one in prison, which is a fairly good reason, I'll admit, to obey it)?

The arena in which we are operating here (WIIWD - bdsm) is, to many, "just this side of "the law", as far as whether it is generally accepted by the "general public" - and so, it's interesting (to me) in a way, that some people would just say: "Well - if it's illegal, then I'd not do it (or ask anyone else to do it)." And just leave it at that.

Okay, it's good to be a "good citizen" (but all of Hitler's henchmen were also "just following orders" too... ) I guess this question has come up before and right about now I am thinking to myself:

Well, if I had a Master that couldn't think of any scenario except an "illegal" one to illustrate what he wouldn't ask me to do - then I'd be tempted to waft away due to his lack of imagination, more than anything else.

Sorry. It's early and I need more sleep. I am not usually "snippy" (at all). No offense intended toward anyone (truly).

I (really) can think of an example (or two) examples - but I'm not posting them until I've had a nap (I am not usually grouchy in the a.m. It's not "personal" toward anyone else. Sorry for the mini "rant").

Good question!

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/6/2006 5:23:55 AM >

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 4:55:26 AM

marieToo

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Hmmm...Good question.....

I think it can be very rewarding obviously for alot of submissives to place complete trust in their Dom/Master and in an ideal situation that can and may be enjoyed for the duration, but similar to what RiotGirl said, I feel that ultimately we are all responsible for our own decisions.
Given the fact that doms/masters are human (or so I would hope, lol) they are not infallible, so the sub/slave (imo) should never completely lose themselves in their dom/master. Subs/slaves still have to maintain their own sense of right and wrong in order to chose every single day whether or not the person they submit to remains "obey-worthy".
I think I would personally resist the type of brainwashing-type mindset that goes on in some Ms relationships where some of the slaves seem almost robotic in their thoughts.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 5:52:22 AM

LVpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

They want a submissive with a mind who can challenge them when needed to make them better people overall.
Yet you obey when needed as well. Just because one asks a question does not mean they are not obeying.

As with any relationship, if something is unclear or goes against what you know or believe, questions will only improve and strenghten what you have because they allow you to continue to learn about your partner. To do something that you do not understand or believe in would be a betrayal to yourself and to who you are as an individual.

I am one who has to understand things and will ask a million questions until I have enough information to make "informed decision". My Master has the right to refuse to answer my questions but has never chosen to exercise this right. Why? My guess would be that it is because He knows me well enough to know that, if I do not have the information needed to make the decision, I will get extremely frustrated and that will not be good for the realtionship.

Being a submissive or a slave does not mean that you are a robot with no feelings and thoughts. It does not mean that you no longer have a responsibility to yourself. You are the one that has to be able to look yourself in the mirror when everything is said and done and if you do not like or respect who and what you see then you can not expect anyone else to do so.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 6:42:17 AM

Archer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well, if I had a Master that couldn't think of any scenario except an "illegal" one to illustrate what he wouldn't ask me to do - then I'd be tempted to waft away due to his lack of imagination, more than anything else.

- Susan

And I like the way this reply will take the issue

Lets look at where the line gets drawn in the legal area more closely and with less extream cases.

If illegal is the standard then:

You would not speed while driving for Master?

You would not Flash a passing trucker on the highway?

You would not carry 10 dildoes into Texas? (illegal since over 5 makes you a distributor)

You would not perform civil disobediance in Alabama protesting their adult toy laws?

So have not found simply being illegal is not the standard?

There are some laws that most people are willing to break for their own reasons or the sake of obediance to the D typethey serve. So where that line is seems to remain nebulous and individual.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 7:02:45 AM

SusanofO

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Archer: Thank you. Yes that's what I mean. I am a dildo fan, too - so you've hit my soft spot (ha, you are so funny)....also the rest isn't "out of line" (to me - not really anyway). Yes, you understood what I meant. I'm saying that "what's legal" is an okay answer, but not a complete one (and not always "right", necessarily (to me). I wouldn't want to be with anyone who would ask me to do illegal things generally, but in 'extenuating circumstances' (Master really is counting on those dildoes tonight for the party?... Well....maaaaaybe, in some circumstances, I wouldn't give it a second thought. HMmm - okay). Flashing is pretty harmless, isn't it? The civil protest sounds like FUN.

For also instance, if someone was needing a particular (prescribed, usually) drug to stay alive (like an anti-Cancer drug, for instance) I had to steal it from a drug store because it was the only way I could get it (and I'd exhausted "legal" avenues as far as getting them), I'd probably do it. And without feeling a whole lot of guilt, too. If they can't see there are times when "the law" is wrong, or when things that are legal are maybe wrong, I wouldn't want to be with them, or I'd at least want to discuss how they viewed various different situations (and how they'd expect me to act in their parameters) in more detail.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/6/2006 7:37:34 AM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 7:31:50 AM

reverendtorres

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I hate to use a copout reply like this, but it really does depend on the situation and the other person (or people) involved. The deeper my like or love for someone, the further I am willing to go.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 7:42:52 AM

SusanofO

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Like for instance: Go read the "Removal of clitoris" thread (currently in "Ask a Master" section. Really. You have to read this (it's a hoot). You'll either roll off the floor laughing (my personal choice at the moment) or get so mad you maybe want to punch a wall. But the example there could be used here, maybe (you gotta read that thread - too funny - or sad. Or perhaps neutral depending on one's mood I guess).

Would I do this - or help do it to someone. or let someone do it to me? (it's illegal in the U.S.. But - if I had a "religious conviction" it was "the right thing to do?" or something?

I don't (have a moral conviction re: Clitoral removal being necessary). But if I did...(personally I think it's really icky, so No. But that's not a valid reason - really). But if I did, maybe that is a good example of the kind of situation that could be used here (but maybe not. My guess is it's pretty uncommon).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/6/2006 8:06:50 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 9:01:32 AM

Missokyst

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That is why I always rely on what is acceptable in my morality. Legality aside, (and I have crossed that line on occasion) if I am going to do something it is my responsibility. I don't care if I was so besotted with someone I just fell into line and did it. Doesn't matter to me if Moses came down from the mount and told me to do it. Ultimately if I cross my line, I am the one at fault.

As a crime junkie, I have read more than a few cases where women participated in illegal acts, claiming when caught, "He told me to do it." Gaakkk.. I am disgusted by how many of them get off lightly on that defense. Ptui.
Kyst

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 9:06:28 AM

daddysprop247

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like some others have said, i don't have a line. my Master alone decides if and where any lines will be drawn. but unlike some, i don't live by the qualifiers of "oh i have complete trust in him", or "oh we are completely compatible". it's pretty simple really. He Master. me slave. lol.

now that does not mean that there are not things i am just physically incapable of doing...for instance i'm very submissive by nature, which is something separate from my being a slave. my submissive nature makes doing certain things very difficult for me (like giving orders to the repair man), and doing certain other things completely impossible. has nothing to do with making a choice or not making a choice, want or don't want, right or wrong. but simply about can and cannot. if he ordered me to just randomly kill another person, i most likely would be unable to do this because in my mind this is exerting dominance over another person, which i simply cannot do. same if he ordered me to whip someone. i'd long to obey him, but would probably be unable to physically carry it out. now if he ordered me to shoot myself in the head, cut off my two big toes, i could do it, no issue. theft? could probably do that also, as you don't have to commit robbery in a "dominant" way.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 3:12:13 PM

slavemaia

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quote:

Suppose a Master told His slave to rob a bank, spread a disease, kill someone, etc. I realized this is extreme but it leaves room for a great gray area of discussion. Where does one draw the line at following a direct order from her Master / Dominant?

When it comes to TPE, i think it's important to remember that TPE does not mean total power transference, it means total power exchange. So, for me there is no "i do whatever He says, no matter what." There are the conditions W/we agreed to before i accepted His collar. And i believe i have every right to question anything He commanded of me if it fell outside the lines of O/our initial agreement.

Although as a slave i keep my limits to a minimum, the fact is i do have some. Prior to accepting His collar He agreed to my hard limits. One of my hard limits is i will not obey anything that is illegal or is in conflict with my beliefs of right and wrong or spiritual beliefs.

It's been said before but i'll repeat it again. It's critical to know the person you choose to submit to and know them well. IMHO any Dominant who seeks to control their submissive by making unreasonable and damaging demands, is not worthy of the title and should be seen for who they really are - a sleezeball.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 8:04:36 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

quote:

Where does one draw the line at following a direct order from her Master / Dominant?

I don't draw the line. I rely on the trust that I placed in Master for him to draw the line for me.

I'll echo this one.

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/6/2006 10:14:03 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme
Where does one draw the line at following a direct order from her Master / Dominant?

I've spent years of my life shedding myself of expectations. Erasing lines is the goal, not drawing them. Honestly, I don't think it's within me to draw invisible lines regarding hypothetical situations. I will promise this, though.. as soon as Himself 'does', in fact, order me to rob a bank or something, I'll come to the boards and tell you if I did it or not..

.. as long as they have an Internet connection at the jail house.

What I do, I take personal responsiblity for doing, whether it's commanded or not. I'm still an adult.. I just happen to be one who's involved in an M/s relationship.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: I Walk the Line ... but where is it?? - 12/7/2006 7:20:39 AM

drawntothedark

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavemaia

quote:

Suppose a Master told His slave to rob a bank, spread a disease, kill someone, etc. I realized this is extreme but it leaves room for a great gray area of discussion. Where does one draw the line at following a direct order from her Master / Dominant?

When it comes to TPE, i think it's important to remember that TPE does not mean total power transference, it means total power exchange. So, for me there is no "i do whatever He says, no matter what." There are the conditions W/we agreed to before i accepted His collar. And i believe i have every right to question anything He commanded of me if it fell outside the lines of O/our initial agreement.

Although as a slave i keep my limits to a minimum, the fact is i do have some. Prior to accepting His collar He agreed to my hard limits. One of my hard limits is i will not obey anything that is illegal or is in conflict with my beliefs of right and wrong or spiritual beliefs.

It's been said before but i'll repeat it again. It's critical to know the person you choose to submit to and know them well. IMHO any Dominant who seeks to control their submissive by making unreasonable and damaging demands, is not worthy of the title and should be seen for who they really are - a sleezeball.

Exactly!

My limites are more of a moral compass. I will not do them because I have issues morally with them. To insure I will not have to break them, I try very hard to make sure the person I'm playing with has the same moral standards.

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