RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 12:47:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Liberalism has infected our public school system and any parent that does not sit down and read their child's history book is a fool. 

While the books in my kids schools weren't too bad, we did go over them together from time to time, and I was able to point out inconsistencies and pure propaganda, and teach them about bias, agenda's and how to see through a lot of propaganda.

Best lessons the boys ever had, because it has stuck to them to this day, and they are pretty good at sniffing out BS.

Firm



slvemike4u -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 1:08:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Really? "liberal pap" (in your own words) bears some sort of equivalency to Nazism?


What a stupid response.  Liberalism has infected our public school system and any parent that does not sit down and read their child's history book is a fool. 

So any parent who has a liberal bent is ,in fact,a fool.Tell me again how my post was a stupid response......lol.



philosophy -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 1:28:14 PM)

FR

No-one can argue with the idea that schools should, as a bare minimum, give students the skills of reading, writing, basic mathematics. a grounding in science and some sort of history of the culture they inhabit.

That's the bare minimum.

The question that remains is should they be doing anything else?

For myself, the answer is a resounding yes. I've seen families fail their children too many times to feel comfortable elaving everything up to parents.

so, what else?

I believe they should be given the tools to decide. To decide everything. That isn't a set of data, or even really a body of knowledge. It's something that only comes when a child is encouraged to think rather than accept. To ask a critical question respectfully, rather than stand on an opposite position and shout.

Some parents don't like that sort of education because what gets critically thought about by a child is, well, their life. Which means that kids sometimes are lead to question the beliefs that their parents raise them to hold. This is neither a good or a bad thing, because if the parents belief really does stand up to critical thinking it is clearly utilitarian at least.
It only becomes a problem when those parents beliefs do not stand up to critical thinking, or the parents themselves are unable to articulate such a defence.

In the 60's it was left wing parents who found themselves at odd with the educational system. My mother was called to school once and told that i was a problem because I seemed unwiling to conform. to which my mum replied that she didnt raise me to conform, which put a stop to that.

Nowadays, the pendulum has perhaps swung the other way. Non-liberals should remember that it is in living memory that text books, written by conquerors, often failed to tell the whole story.

Either way, as long as a child leaves school able to articulate a critical thought, in speech as well as in written form, along with an adequate knowledge of the world around them, then the school has done its job.



MileHighM -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 2:23:49 PM)


Philosophy, I love the point you make at the end.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Either way, as long as a child leaves school able to articulate a critical thought, in speech as well as in written form, along with an adequate knowledge of the world around them, then the school has done its job.



When I read so many of the response, I see so much concern that a child is leaving school without the ability to critically think. Left or right parents want their kids to have that ability. The problem is that schools (k-12) are mostly memorization factories. Standardized testing and the like do not test problem solving skills and creativity, they test how well a kid fits in the box.

Once schools might have asked kids to conform to a right-wing mold, and maybe they have them conforming to a left-wing mold now. The problem is there is a mold. Until, we figure out how to teach teachers to teach debate and provide an open diversity of thought this won't be accomplished.

I know kids are being woefully undereducated in this realm. The proof is to walk onto a college campus the day a controversial figure is there to give a speech. So many kids won't politely listen and then challenge the individual on the merits of his/her beliefs asking critical questions, as you put it. Too many will shout down the speaker and chant protests.

In many ways, we can only be thankful that most kids do graduate with the ability to read, write, and perform basic math.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 2:36:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM


Philosophy, I love the point you make at the end.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Either way, as long as a child leaves school able to articulate a critical thought, in speech as well as in written form, along with an adequate knowledge of the world around them, then the school has done its job.



When I read so many of the response, I see so much concern that a child is leaving school without the ability to critically think. Left or right parents want their kids to have that ability. The problem is that schools (k-12) are mostly memorization factories. Standardized testing and the like do not test problem solving skills and creativity, they test how well a kid fits in the box.

Once schools might have asked kids to conform to a right-wing mold, and maybe they have them conforming to a left-wing mold now. The problem is there is a mold. Until, we figure out how to teach teachers to teach debate and provide an open diversity of thought this won't be accomplished.

I know kids are being woefully undereducated in this realm. The proof is to walk onto a college campus the day a controversial figure is there to give a speech. So many kids won't politely listen and then challenge the individual on the merits of his/her beliefs asking critical questions, as you put it. Too many will shout down the speaker and chant protests.

In many ways, we can only be thankful that most kids do graduate with the ability to read, write, and perform basic math.




Great thoughts, both. Unfortunately there is scant evidence that critical thinking can be taught, particularly if there are attempts to teach it apart from specific areas of knowledge. I havent read the attached in depth, but summaries of it that Ive read pretty much agree with that.

By the time kids get to third or fourth grade it might very well be too late for most of them. The ones that already approach thought that way I suspect were Highlights for Children readers. Its anecdotal evidence only, but after observing my kids and their friends, the curiosity developed by HfC was a highly accurate early indicator of later success.

http://www.readingfirst.virginia.edu/elibrary_pdfs/Crit_Thinking.pdf



GreedyTop -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 2:40:47 PM)

*runs in and waves hi to Philo!* good to see ya!



kat321 -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 2:57:14 PM)

Current overriding liberal bias in school curriculum and texts?  California is the exception to a sea of conservative and corporate interests currently served by schools:

Tennessee ban on discussion of homosexuality in schools:    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-05-21/news/29588548_1_gay-bill-gay-rights-activists-homosexuality
Scholastic introduces free pro-coal curriculum for 4th grade:  http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/25_04/25_04_bigelow2.shtml  (The program was recently pulled, but other corporate sponsored curriculum still remain in schools.)
From VA textbook- thousands of Black soldiers fought for interests of the Confederacy:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/28/AR2010122804332.html?hpid=topnews
American Library Association lists of books challenged or banned 2009-2010 (most from public schools by conservative groups:  http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocacy/banned/bannedbooksweek/ideasandresources/free_downloads/2010banned.pdf
WSJ author attacks adolescent literature as too dark and inappropriate:  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303657404576357622592697038.html
Texas Social Studies Controversy (by the way, most of the conservative school board members who approved this curriculum were voted out of office... in Texas.... Unfortunately, the state is stuck with the curriculum until it is up for review ten years from now.)  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/17/AR2010031700560.html
Ban on Ethnic Studies curriculum in Arizona http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37112122/ns/us_news-life/t/ethnic-studies-target-new-ariz-law/#.TjhrJ4JvCso  despite the fact that the state's own audit demonstrates students in the program have higher test scores and graduation rates and that the curriculum is not separatist:  http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2011/06/16/20110616tucson-ethnic-studies-audit0616.html  (the entire audit is available from Cambrium, who did the study, but the file is very large.)
Approval for teaching intelligent design in schools:  http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2009/01/louisiana-creat.html
Majority of teens still receive abstinence-only sex education:  http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Teen-Sex-Ed.html

I could go on...



kat321 -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 3:06:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Great thoughts, both. Unfortunately there is scant evidence that critical thinking can be taught, particularly if there are attempts to teach it apart from specific areas of knowledge. I havent read the attached in depth, but summaries of it that Ive read pretty much agree with that.

By the time kids get to third or fourth grade it might very well be too late for most of them. The ones that already approach thought that way I suspect were Highlights for Children readers. Its anecdotal evidence only, but after observing my kids and their friends, the curiosity developed by HfC was a highly accurate early indicator of later success.

http://www.readingfirst.virginia.edu/elibrary_pdfs/Crit_Thinking.pdf


There are many programs that successfully teach critical thinking.  Check the work of  Kieren Eigen, Gareth Matthews and Mathew Lipman.  You are correct in that there is an on-going debate about whether critical thinking is subject-area specific or a more generalized process.  Right now there is a test used at the college level to determine growth in critical thinking over time. As one might suspect, it is based on more generalized processes.

It is interesting that you bring up "Highlights" after saying that critical thinking is more likely to be learned through individual subjects.  Your "Highlights" example would be an argument in favor of more generalized processing.



Lucylastic -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 3:10:10 PM)

Bloody awesome list thankyou for the information Kat.
this is gonna be interesting



DomKen -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 3:10:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

No-one can argue with the idea that schools should, as a bare minimum, give students the skills of reading, writing, basic mathematics. a grounding in science and some sort of history of the culture they inhabit.

That's the bare minimum.

The question that remains is should they be doing anything else?

For myself, the answer is a resounding yes. I've seen families fail their children too many times to feel comfortable elaving everything up to parents.

I'm a product of public schools in a middle class suburb of Atlanta with parents that were usually too drunk to care hwat kind of education I got. If it wasn't for great teachers, who were making less money than my drunkard father the truck driver, I would have gotten no education to speak of.


quote:

so, what else?

I believe they should be given the tools to decide. To decide everything. That isn't a set of data, or even really a body of knowledge. It's something that only comes when a child is encouraged to think rather than accept. To ask a critical question respectfully, rather than stand on an opposite position and shout.

Critical thinking also requires the ability to research and understand presented data. This is where a lot of people fail at critical thinking. They automatically agree with everything that meets their preconceived notions and reject everything that doesn't. They never learned to look at the next level and determine how the source is biased.

Of course many are ridiculously underprepared to deal with any decision. Too many have no understanding or capability to do math more involved than counting change. In the age of the internet it is shocking how few can do basic google searches for information, to the point that a sarcastic site exists to make the point (http://lmgtfy.com/). So few have any exposure to classic logic that most do not even understand why an appeal to the majority is logically fallacious.

Changing the educational system to fix the problem would simply require children be taught how to do research and be required from an early grade to do research and write papers presenting their own conclusions graded and dsicussed by teachers not afraid of being fired or harassed because little johnny had to work too hard or had his feelings hurt by the teachers critique of his work.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 3:28:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kat321


It is interesting that you bring up "Highlights" after saying that critical thinking is more likely to be learned through individual subjects.  Your "Highlights" example would be an argument in favor of more generalized processing.



Apologies that I wasnt clear. I think critical thinking (or the skills that lead to it) can be taught/developed at very young ages, but by 3rd/4th grade its generally too late. Im also not necessarily comfortable with "taught" in the context of HfC, which is the reason for the "/developed". My (again admittedly anecdotal) experience is that the kids who get into it do so out of their own curiosity and they develop the skills to solve the puzzles etc on their own rather than being taught those skills.



kat321 -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 3:35:09 PM)

DK- it would require more than that.  Research in schools wasn't taught at all K-12 until probably the mid-1970s, and from then on it largely consisted of glorified book/periodical reports (read everything you can on a topic and tell the teacher about it.)   There are library/media standards; however, the time to teach this is generally handed to a school media specialist as part of a larger project in an English or history class.  While this worked for a while, two factors overrode the practice: more time spent teaching for testing requirements and cuts in funding for the library/media specialist nationwide.  To put that job in perspective, it is cut more often that arts and world languages programs which are usually seen as among the first to go.

There is another issue as well.  Have you ever graded 150 four-to-five-page papers (5 classes, 30 kids per class)? At twenty minutes a paper (which I think is woefully inadequate to do a sufficient assessment of a developing writer and critical thinker) that would be fifty hours of work for one assignment.  I think, in the end, this is why detailed research was never taught K-12 and was always seen as the domain of the college.  While we can argue that times are changing (cue Bob Dylan here) and that this should be part of a school's curriculum, there are still issues with the workload associated with the task. 



rulemylife -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 3:38:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Liberalism has infected our public school system and any parent that does not sit down and read their child's history book is a fool. 

While the books in my kids schools weren't too bad, we did go over them together from time to time, and I was able to point out inconsistencies and pure propaganda, and teach them about bias, agenda's and how to see through a lot of propaganda.

Best lessons the boys ever had, because it has stuck to them to this day, and they are pretty good at sniffing out BS.

Firm


And there is not conservative bias in history books?

You know the examples are readily available.

But I don't suppose you taught them about that.



rulemylife -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 3:45:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kat321

DK- it would require more than that.  Research in schools wasn't taught at all K-12 until probably the mid-1970s, and from then on it largely consisted of glorified book/periodical reports (read everything you can on a topic and tell the teacher about it).



Uhhh.........well maybe you can clarify for me what research consists of if not studying books and reports.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 4:16:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Liberalism has infected our public school system and any parent that does not sit down and read their child's history book is a fool. 

While the books in my kids schools weren't too bad, we did go over them together from time to time, and I was able to point out inconsistencies and pure propaganda, and teach them about bias, agenda's and how to see through a lot of propaganda.

Best lessons the boys ever had, because it has stuck to them to this day, and they are pretty good at sniffing out BS.


And there is not conservative bias in history books?

You know the examples are readily available.

But I don't suppose you taught them about that.

Then you suppose wrong.

Firm



kat321 -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 5:06:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: kat321

DK- it would require more than that.  Research in schools wasn't taught at all K-12 until probably the mid-1970s, and from then on it largely consisted of glorified book/periodical reports (read everything you can on a topic and tell the teacher about it).



Uhhh.........well maybe you can clarify for me what research consists of if not studying books and reports.


Studying books and reports is really called a review of literature... it is stating what is known before conducting an actual study.  Research is generating knew knowledge, which for young students means new knowledge for them (for an adult researcher, it would mean new to the field.)

And example of young children conducting research:  A fourth grader might pose a question about how people in his or her community decided to move there.  Once the question is posed, the student can read a variety of texts about how people have chosen to move historically.  This gives the student background from which he or she can make some sort of hypothesis about the idea of human movement- and is usually as far as 'research' goes in schools.  The actual research phase concerning the community would have the student talk to family members and other local adults (maybe at a retirement home) or go to the local history museum to look at primary sources pertaining specifically to the community.  Once this data is gathered, the student goes back to the initial hypothesis and decides if what he or she found matches the information from the literature review.  If it does, great; if not the student should have enough information to make a plausible explanation for the difference.

I guess a way to look at the difference is that a report simply has a student tell what someone else found.  Research has the student engaging in subject-specific methods to create or add to a knowledge base- of course in an age-appropriate manner.

And yes... I have watched teachers implement this type of program with much success.



TheHeretic -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 5:42:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
How about

 " Republican candidate for the Aug. 9 recall election of Democratic state Sen. Jim Holperin".

Not exactly NOBODY from NOWHERE dug up by some ACTIVIST is it?

  

Exactly.  A losing candidate on the ballot in a recall election.  Nobody, from nowhere. 



lockedaway -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 5:44:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Really? "liberal pap" (in your own words) bears some sort of equivalency to Nazism?


What a stupid response.  Liberalism has infected our public school system and any parent that does not sit down and read their child's history book is a fool. 

So any parent who has a liberal bent is ,in fact,a fool.Tell me again how my post was a stupid response......lol.


LOLOLOLOL exactly!  Now you're getting it!



FirmhandKY -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 5:46:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
How about

 " Republican candidate for the Aug. 9 recall election of Democratic state Sen. Jim Holperin".

Not exactly NOBODY from NOWHERE dug up by some ACTIVIST is it?
  

Exactly.  A losing candidate on the ballot in a recall election.  Nobody, from nowhere.

Rich,

You can make sense out of fl's inane remarks?

You're a better man than I, sir.  [8D][:)]

Firm



TheHeretic -> RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schools To Nazi Regime (8/2/2011 5:56:23 PM)

Comprehension is easy, resisting the urge to respond, not so much.  I'll have to disagree with you, Firm.



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