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My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 9:11:36 PM

Femmeorfoe

Posts: 1
Joined: 5/8/2008
Status: offline

As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many female "slaves" who live with their "masters" and I don't know what to think... does it cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman? How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control? And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.

Post #: 1

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 9:19:36 PM

mbes

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline

From my understanding, feminism is about choice and self-determination. Choosing to give to another, and determining that I am happiest in x role fall under that umbrella.
I can't answer your question about abuse, as mine would never abuse me; he uses me quite well.

I'm not one to stick around for mistreatment.
As for letting a man have control, this has taken more self-control than anything I've ever done. It's quite satisfying.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 2

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 9:21:53 PM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

It's your freedom of equality that makes these choices possible.

Try looking beyond the stereotypes.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 3

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 9:27:27 PM

SwtJadedGrl

Posts: 60
Joined: 10/20/2005
Status: offline

It is all a matter of perspective.....

~ she kneels before him. eyes lowered. mouth closed. he strokes her cheek and she shivers~
This same scene if played out in different groups of people would elicit many different reactions.Some would say that she
is shivering out of fear. that this man is a threat to her and she is
the victim that needs to be rescued.
others would see her as a
mere sex toy. a tool for pleasure and pain. they would look simply at
what she can offer him physically.
yet there are some who
would hide their eyes in disgust. they would see only perversion and
sin. they would look away in repulsion.
some would ask why this
women degrades herself for this man. if given the chance they would
tell her to stand tall. they would tell her that she is his equal and
deserves to be treated as such.
they all would have
passed judgment without knowledge. none would have thought to ask her
why she was there. if they did they would hear the truth and maybe come
to understand her.
she would say.......................
i kneel before Him not
out of fear nor sexual pleasure. not out of sick perversion or
humiliation. i kneel before Him out of love and devotion, out of
respect and honor. i lower my eyes not because i am below Him, but out
of gratitude that He has helped me rise to new heights within myself. i
close my mouth not for fear of speaking, but because He knows my mind,
heart and soul, i need not speak. i shiver at His touch because to me
His touch means freedom, peace, and complete oneness. it is the most
intense feeling i have ever felt. i know that kneeling here before Him
i am safer then i have or will ever be. here i know pure freedom. that
is why i am His and His alone. that is why i have given Him the most
meaningful thing i have........... myself.

_____________________________

~~I'll never claim to be your equal, but never mistake me for weak~~

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 4

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 10:05:53 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

Last things first. There are fewer dominants of either sex, and many more submissives of both sexes. And in my observation many more male subs than females.
Second, the line is crossed when you cross it. Why care what other people do in their relationships? Or even if they find fulfillment or not? If there is a line, and it bothers you to think that people may enjoy it, you don't have to do it. There will be a few people who will tell you,. that you must cross A to get to B. But it is your choice, your life, your body. If you see the line and you feel that way, step back.
And let other people do what they do without feeling badly for their choices.
Kyst

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 5

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 10:21:28 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

How can any woman who truly respects a woman's right to choose demean those who choose differently than her?

This is my choice. My free choice. This is what makes me happy. How are you any better than any man of any previous generation when you dare to tell me how I have to live my life?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 6

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 10:34:55 PM

chaosforge

Posts: 397
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: The Abyss
Status: offline

to be a feminist means to believe in the idea that we are all equal.

men have the right to submit to another if it makes them happy, as do women have the same right.

would you deny a woman her happiniess or keep her trapped in the role society has now assigned her to?

phoenixinchains

< Message edited by chaosforge -- 5/8/2008 10:36:12 PM >

_____________________________

Chaosforge
All begins in chaos and all will end in chaos.
I am that which has always been and will always be.
CHAOS !!!

I am Legion, for we are many.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 7

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 10:46:10 PM

Valyraen

Posts: 746
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe

As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many female "slaves" who live with their "masters" and I don't know what to think... does it cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman? How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control? And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.

As a gender equalist, I had my qualms about the lifestyle when I was first introduced to it, and the first person that learned about those qualms was Aqua, pretty much as soon as I knew about them. It took me a very long time and a great deal of soul-searching to be comfortable with who and what I am - a sadist and a dominant, the owner of a kitten, and someone who believes passionately in the right of a woman to determine her own path in life.

Does it cross a line? I think the better question to ask would be, does it cross one of your lines. As with almost everything in this lifestyle, it's subjective. If you're not comfortable with it, that's your prerogative... but the second that you try to force your viewpoint onto someone else, you turn yourself into the oppressor. Let's not forget that the feminist who insists that every woman stand up and burn her bra is every bit as much of an intolerant bigot as the chauvanist who thinks that every woman should be in the kitchen. The Women's Liberation movement fought for a woman's right to choose what to do with her life, and there are some women who exercise that right by being subservient, just like there are some women who exercise that right by wearing a power suit and running a company. Is either one of them a whit less in control of her own life? If Kitten really didn't want me to do something to her, she's quite easily capable of breaking the arm that I raise to discipline her. And yet, she glories in our relationship and in the way that we interact with one another, because it's what makes her happy.

There are as many paths in this lifestyle as there are people to walk them, and some of those paths lead to places that some of us aren't comfortable going. However, that doesn't mean that any of us have the right to tell other people which paths they should and should not take.

Femmeorfoe, here's a question that I pose to you. If you were to take every gender-specific word in your OP and replace it with its counterpart, would you be nearly as conflicted?

_____________________________

CM's Resident Fuzzy Kitteh

There is no creature more loving than a hungry cat.

Valyraen in ValyraenandAqua

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 8

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 10:47:29 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Valyraen

There are as many paths in this lifestyle as there are people to walk them, and some of those paths lead to places that some of us aren't comfortable going. However, that doesn't mean that any of us have the right to tell other people which paths they should and should not take.

Femmeorfoe, here's a question that I pose to you. If you were to take every gender-specific word in your OP and replace it with its counterpart, would you be nearly as conflicted?

As they say where we come from...

Friend speaks my mind.

A lot better than I did. I love you.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Valyraen)

Post #: 9

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 11:04:11 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

Feminism is about choice and doing what one's soul wants.

One of the major perversions popular with those who cry "freedom" is they mean "the kind of freedom I want for everyone." Freedom isn't freedom if it only means "freedom from his restrictions" and doesn't include "freedom from mine."

Have you ever looked into the eyes of a submissive, male or female" after a scene? I don't believe one could do that and ever use the word "abuse."

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 10

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 11:04:46 PM

StormsSlave

Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline

I absolutely believe that embracing my sexuality, taking responsibility for my own choices and satisfaction, and being bluntly honest with my partner about my feelings and needs is what feminism was supposed to be all about. I think I laid this internal conflict to rest for myself long ago when I stopped worrying about what people thought about me and started making myself happy.

I can't say I always make the right choices, but they are my choices and I am happy with them.

_____________________________

Congratulate me...I'm a missus!!

--nobody's resident anything.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 11

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 11:22:25 PM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

I can totally understand your confusion since this is a bit of a mystery to those that have not experienced it.

Sure, BDSM on the outside might appear to be all about kink and sex. Actually in many ways it is,  all depends if you include D/s or not.   There is a lot that goes on mentally with kink and even with sex.

OK, somebody who is not a chauvanistic pig can in fact take somebody they actually love and respect and engage in verbal and physical humilation.   Even more so, if the other person actually enjoys it.   Ok, so it's not true abuse.   But what is abuse to somebody else, might be something they enjoy the Hell out of.

I would just say this, look for somebody with similar views and mindset as you have.   Yes, there are chauvanistic pigs that hang out in the world of BDSM, but ever Dom/Master is one.    People are People and everybody is different.

My advice is to toss all this business of gender roles aside, and focus upon clicking with somebody one on one.   Not everybody has nor does a D/s relationship. Yes, there are many kinky BDSM people who don't have D/s, and there are many that have going on.

Take any combination of what the Letters of BDSM represents and you are doing BDSM.   You don't have to do all the letters.   You don't even have to do S&M to be into BDSM.   Everybody is different.

What's important is that you figure out where you fit in, and find what you are looking for.   At times it's good to not get too caught up in labels, roles and etc.. and remember that we are just human beings.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 12

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/8/2008 11:49:49 PM

Second2U

Posts: 8
Joined: 5/1/2006
Status: offline

I agree with you - it is a predicament. I don't think you are questioning the fact that a woman has the freedom to choose to be a slave - if I understand you right you are saying that she probably wants to be a slave as a result of her mind, desires and sexuality playing with the traditional gender roles that she learnt in her youth. Instead of opposing those roles she has assimilated them at a certain level and expresses this through her submissiveness. If this is what you are saying I think you have a very interesting point which lies at the heart of many slaves' difficulties accepting themselves. However, we need to accept ourselves and accept that our subconscious does not follow the same rules as our consciousness. It is not a contradiction to be consciously a feminist and need to feel submissive to satisfy our subconscious desires.

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)

Post #: 13

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 2:21:31 AM

OldBastardly1

Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

What they said. Now be a sweet girl and bake a pie or something.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad

(in reply to Second2U)

Post #: 14

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 2:35:18 AM

Evility

Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline

Another incendiary first day first post.

Yawn.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 15

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 3:05:43 AM

HalloweenWhite

Posts: 1028
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe

As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many female "slaves" who live with their "masters" and I don't know what to think... does it cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman? How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control? And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.

I'm a male straight Dominant so I want/enjoy controlling women and the idea of feminism go right against that "formula" lol, but I'm also a huge supporter of women's rights,equality etc. I show all women in My life as much as I show men and get irrate if I see a woman being spoken down to, I even stay away from some movies because I learned a long time ago how the women in them will be portrayed.

I struggled too, still do sometimes, but I tell Myself there are men who want and enjoy submitting to women and anyone in the lifestlye worth their salt believes in "S.S.C." The point is, in terms of female and male subs and female (Dommes) and male Doms. I think it all evens out ultimately, also, it's all about consent-no one does and is expected to do something they don't like or want, thats what "S.S.C" is partly about. The exception to that is slaves, but again, there are males slaves just as there are female slaves and they are "given" limits so their saftey etc. is not compromised.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 16

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 3:15:26 AM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.

       i don't see why that is so surprising. i am a firm supporter in equal rights before the law. However, in general women and men are wired differently.
              You always have the exceptions to the rule....Dominant women are exciting to watch, for example, and there are men who will tell you that since childhood, they have been subservient to women. Gender, and what we do with it has nothing to do with equal rights.
               i am a submissive women in relationships...but at work? Aw hell no!!!   In the supermarket, or anywhere else i deal with men...no. i am only submissive to my partner. Not just anyone wih a dangling appendage.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 17

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 3:17:07 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

I think you have the wrong idea about femanism! There are a few very vocal women who use the lable who aren't IMO femanists at all but femimazi's, not looking for equality but following a vanilla version of female supremacist bullshit.

The main thing that was fought for was a right to have a choise, the same choise as men. That is what you have... and that includes the right to give those choises to another.

All to often feminazi's berate femsubs for the choise they have made.... hypocracy at work there because after actual femanists fighting for so long to get the right for women to choose, here is a group of women trying to deny the right to those choises simply because THEY don't like the choises being made.

Does it matter that there are more femsubs/slaves than male subs/slaves? Or is it the point that they have an equal oportunity to make the choise to give their choises into the hands of their respective Dominants?

As for "How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman?"... take your head out of your ass. WIITWD is FAR FAR from 'abuse'... My girl is a maso, she has a need for pain and it would be more abusive NOT to address that need than to take a cane to her.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 18

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 3:52:31 AM

TysGalilah

Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe

As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many female "slaves" who live with their "masters" and I don't know what to think... does it cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman? How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control? And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.

I don't see feminism defined as a sexual position ie who's on top.

In an effort to claim rights and liberties/freedom of will> the scales became tipped and overcompensated ....hence the stereotype that to be a feminist you need to be/have to be stronger than, in charge and a bitchy man-eater.

Feminism is about empowerment
and
expression of self

(mentally and emotionally)
My submission comes from a place of strength, and his dominance empowers ( and celebrates) that strength in me.

(physically)
What he does to my body is not abuse
and, trust me, my reaction is definately expression of self. My experiences and reactions are ohhh so liberating.

< Message edited by TysGalilah -- 5/9/2008 4:03:30 AM >

_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 19

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 3:57:54 AM

summersprite

Posts: 101
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline

Femmeorfoe's quote: "How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control?"

I only struggled with this for a very short while. But now I'm beginning to see that my decision, my choice, my right to give up my control to this one man, and his respect for my submission, has increased my self-respect.

And besides, BDSM is only a part of my life. In my day to day life, I'm a kick-arse bitch who doesn't taken any sh*t from anyone... male or female. Lol.

-edited to show the first sentence is Femmeorfoe's NOT mine ;-)

< Message edited by summersprite -- 5/9/2008 4:01:55 AM >

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 20

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