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RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 4:06:24 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: summersprite
And besides, BDSM is only a part of my life. In my day to day life, I'm a kick-arse bitch who doesn't taken any sh*t from anyone... male or female. Lol.

Even if it wasn't 'just part', like My girl... she is in submission to ONE person... Me and that actualy helps her have the confidence to take the rest of the world head on, go toe to toe with anyone trying to stop her regardless of their gender.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to summersprite)

Post #: 21

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 4:17:28 AM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe

As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many male "slaves" who live with their "mistresses" and I don't know what to think... does it cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total weak pussy physically submit to a woman? How can a man who has any self respect let a woman have so much control? And why are there so many more male subs than male doms? You have to think that feminism is the reason why.

Different day, different version, nothing new.

The issue really isn't feminism, gender roles, or male/female supremacy, but rather the perspective and ignorance that someone is debasing themselves by submitting to another person.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 5/9/2008 4:36:00 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

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(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 22

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 4:37:57 AM

SoulPiercer

Posts: 374
Joined: 5/27/2007
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Well now ... I suppose I could start a new thread .. My Black self is conflicted ..

Afterall .. considering my family tree .. how could I in good conscience take another human being, put them in chains, call them demeaning names, make them clean my house and use them for my own selfish sexual desires all without a paycheck?

Actually .. I sleep quite well at night and I got great t-shirt!

See.. it never once occurred to me to make a correlation between BDSM and slavery.

If you talk to my slave (I won't even stand there with a knife to her throat) she will tell you that I anything but chauvanistic. We talked at great length about her choices. We are blessed in that my income is more than sufficient to support the two of us. If she absolutely wanted to work, she was free to do so. However, she chooses to take care of our home and started a home business instead. Choice.

Previous contributors have said feminism is about Choice. I'm not so sure I agree with that. If that were true, feminists should applaud a woman for choosing to be a prostitute, exoctic dancer, housewife or mother (please .. no flames saying I'm comparing being a prostitute to being a mother, I'm merely grouping together choices that women make which tend to rouse the disdain of many a feminist).

_____________________________

Do you have any idea how many bones you have left for me to break? - Batman

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 23

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 4:42:05 AM

Lashra

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Feminism is about having the ability to make choices and as far as I am concerned, feminism is a great thing. A woman can choose to be a CEO, a stay at home Mom, a lawyer, a teacher, president, a slave etc etc..because of feminism.

I do not think most slaves consider themselves "abused" or they shouldn't be anyway. They should be content in a situation to which they themselves helped to form. If they do feel abused then they should have enough self respect and instinct for survival to get out of the situation however they can.

Yes you will find quite a few chauvnists in BDSM, just like anywhere in life. However there are women out there that love them. If it makes them happy, I say let them live their lives, its their choice.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 24

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 4:54:17 AM

pettingdragons

Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
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the is no profile!!!! so its a mute point.

pettingdragons
**Master Dragons considered slave**

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 25

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 6:07:48 AM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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Hello Femmeorfoe. ''Feminism'' is gender centered politics (you leave submissive males out of your post, why is that?)

Submission is not centered on the female gender and all it's political ramifications. It is centered on a dynamic (male-female, female-female, male-male, transgendered included!). You have males and females in position of power who submit in a dynamic. You have males and females in positions of subservience who are nasty doms in private life.

It is not a gender role thingie, it is a power dynamic preference thingie. Your conflict stems from a subjective political view that concerns ''neo gender roles'' in ''opposition'' to traditional gender roles.

A Feminist may kiss her dominant's feet at home and still kick ass in the work place. If you are conflicted, you should stop comparing apples to oranges and try to have less dogma in your private aspirations. Just my opinion, (I'm a guy, what do I know?). RL.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 26

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 7:03:13 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pettingdragons
the is no profile!!!! so its a mute point.

Not really, even the posting of someone attempting to troll CAN lead to an interesting discussion about the subject.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to pettingdragons)

Post #: 27

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 7:39:30 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe

As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many female "slaves" who live with their "masters" and I don't know what to think... does it cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman? How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control? And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.

Feminism is a parth you choose for what ever reason. being a Feminist is what you become by your choice. The right to make such choices is something which every person should defend. However no one on such a path has the right to attempt to force their beliefs/choices upon others with whom they either disagree with or whose paths they do not understand.

Abuse is generally in the eye of the beholder and the "Abuses" inherent in BDSM are usually consensual but in the eyes of the Law in many areas are Illegal.

Most women I know and know of who submit to either a Man or a Woman are oft very strong but have the need to hand over control to another. That takes a gteat deal of courage and strength.

In closing, I say thus: Don't knock what you don't understand for to do so invites others to knock your choices of lifestyle and beliefs, and may show a fear of the unknown. Rather agree to disagree and walk away or, learn more about that which you don't understand and/or find abhorent.

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does." (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 28

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 8:16:20 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe

As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many female "slaves" who live with their "masters" and I don't know what to think... does it cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman? How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control? And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.

I am a feminist slave.
It's the core way in which I exchange power with a man.
I tried for many many years to be other than I was BUT unless I fully submit I simply found that men felt they needed power OVER me, containing me and competing.
There is no conflict, as it is when I serve that I have, I feel, most power. I serve in many ways: as teacher, writer, mother, breadwinner, sexually, and in charity work and in friendship etc etc.
No conflict within me. It's a very creative period right now for me finding a Master who truly understands this and wants this and sees it as the way in which I am powerful as a woman.
Gender has nothing to do with it though., saveI that I think it's terminology and language (as language unfortuneately is gender bound). Is there an equivalent 'male' word for feminist? Then if I was a man would be that.
I just happen t have been born a woman and orientate myself that way. But I know natural born men who orientate as women who also get stuck as to whether to call themselves feminists or not.
I am reminded of the furore Germaine Greer caused when she resigned over a transgender and feminism issue.
PS and agreeing with robertolapiedra...I do kiss domiants arses yet kick butt in the work place. My favourite colour is also pink.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 5/9/2008 8:21:20 AM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 29

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 8:20:46 AM

OmegaG

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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FR

I think Aqua spoke my thoughts most eloquently. My mother was a "feminist" to the core, meaning that she wanted her daughters to make life choices based on her paradigms. When we didn't she felt that she had failed at raising good feminists, what she failed to see is the years of turmoil that I went though because I tried to be the good little feminist soldiar that she wanted but I hated it, hated it to my core and was miserable. Don't get me wrong, I was a good militant feminist (some would say too good as I failed on the relationship front) but it didn't give me the happiness and fufilment that I desired.

I am not going to preach at any Domme or CEO that her place is not where she wants to be and all I ask from them is the same respect for my choices.

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 30

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 9:19:55 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SwtJadedGrl

It is all a matter of perspective.....

~ she kneels before him. eyes lowered. mouth closed. he strokes her cheek and she shivers~
This same scene if played out in different groups of people would elicit many different reactions.Some would say that she
is shivering out of fear. that this man is a threat to her and she is
the victim that needs to be rescued.
others would see her as a
mere sex toy. a tool for pleasure and pain. they would look simply at
what she can offer him physically.
yet there are some who
would hide their eyes in disgust. they would see only perversion and
sin. they would look away in repulsion.
some would ask why this
women degrades herself for this man. if given the chance they would
tell her to stand tall. they would tell her that she is his equal and
deserves to be treated as such.
they all would have
passed judgment without knowledge. none would have thought to ask her
why she was there. if they did they would hear the truth and maybe come
to understand her.
she would say.......................
i kneel before Him not
out of fear nor sexual pleasure. not out of sick perversion or
humiliation. i kneel before Him out of love and devotion, out of
respect and honor. i lower my eyes not because i am below Him, but out
of gratitude that He has helped me rise to new heights within myself. i
close my mouth not for fear of speaking, but because He knows my mind,
heart and soul, i need not speak. i shiver at His touch because to me
His touch means freedom, peace, and complete oneness. it is the most
intense feeling i have ever felt. i know that kneeling here before Him
i am safer then i have or will ever be. here i know pure freedom. that
is why i am His and His alone. that is why i have given Him the most
meaningful thing i have........... myself.

That's really clever Swtjade

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to SwtJadedGrl)

Post #: 31

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 10:55:13 AM

pettingdragons

Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: pettingdragons
the is no profile!!!! so its a mute point.

Not really, even the posting of someone attempting to troll CAN lead to an interesting discussion about the subject.

agreed....it can lead to interesting conversation....and it may help someone along the way...it can also lead to arguements....so ill sit back with my tea on my pillow and enjoy the show...."any one like a refill?"

pettingdragons
**Master Dragons considered slave**

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 32

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 11:11:34 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pettingdragons
agreed....it can lead to interesting conversation....and it may help someone along the way...it can also lead to arguements....so ill sit back with my tea on my pillow and enjoy the show...."any one like a refill?"

Wouldn't you be better having your tea in a cup? sucking it from a soggy pillow seems an unusual quirk... I'll stick to coffee.... from a mug

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to pettingdragons)

Post #: 33

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 12:19:14 PM

PainSmith

Posts: 53
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: the Republic
Status: offline

To me, the OP is about a surface conflict between civilised values and our animal nature, which vanishes when you look deeper into it.

Sophisticated civilised values insist we make no presumption about someone merely because of their colour, gender, culture, etc.. Our animal nature gives each of us sexualities which demand certain behaviours from us. So, apparently, there's a conflict between standing up for your rights as a woman, and giving up your rights into slavery.

The important thing, though, surely, is not that a feminist choses to become a slave, but that she can make that choice herself. If you're a feminist because you fight bigotry, then there is no conflict between being a feminist and being a slave, provided it's the slave's choice, even if she chooses non-consensual slavery, because she has the right, the opportunity, and the knowledge to make that choice herself. On the other hand, if you're a feminist for shallow tribal or selfish reasons, say a British Home Secretary, then of course might feel a conflict if you see another woman giving up her freedom to become a slave, because, only thinking of yourself, you don't want that to happen to you, & you can't understand other people have other needs because you can't see beyond you own burnt bra. Anyone who makes negative presumptions about someone because they were born a sadist, or masochist, might as well make negative presumptions about someone because they were born a woman.

So, to me, a feminist society is one in which people don't make assumptions about someone because she can't aim when she pees, but rather ensures a woman has the opportunity, right, and knowledge to choose for herself, even if her choice is slavery.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 34

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 12:39:06 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe

And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.

Agreed.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)

Post #: 35

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 12:41:57 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mbes

From my understanding, feminism is about choice and self-determination.

Choice can be manipulated.

Self-determination is a different matter.

Women of the 19th century chose subservience - does this equate to feminism? I don't think so.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to mbes)

Post #: 36

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 12:45:53 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

i am a submissive women in relationships...but at work? Aw hell no!!! In the supermarket, or anywhere else i deal with men...no. i am only submissive to my partner. Not just anyone wih a dangling appendage.

Yes, but, the workplace etc is a game.

When the gloves are off, behind closed doors, you revert to submission.

The OP has two valid questions, why do the majority of women lean toward a submissive role? and how does this tie in with Feminism?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

Post #: 37

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 1:36:33 PM

summersprite

Posts: 101
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: summersprite
And besides, BDSM is only a part of my life. In my day to day life, I'm a kick-arse bitch who doesn't taken any sh*t from anyone... male or female. Lol.

Even if it wasn't 'just part', like My girl... she is in submission to ONE person... Me and that actualy helps her have the confidence to take the rest of the world head on, go toe to toe with anyone trying to stop her regardless of their gender.

;-) Yes, I'm happy to be in submission to ONE person only.
But I would have to say it is because I'm, first and foremost, a confident, secure person in my vanilla life, that I'm able to submit to this ONE person... not the other way around.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 38

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 1:51:10 PM

OmegaG

Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

I can't know what others want or desire, if they submit out of survival or if it's what truly makes them happy.

I do know that I've come to a point in my life where I would be still take the path I've chosen even if I'm the only person on that road.

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 39

RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 2:19:58 PM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

i am a submissive women in relationships...but at work? Aw hell no!!! In the supermarket, or anywhere else i deal with men...no. i am only submissive to my partner. Not just anyone wih a dangling appendage.

Yes, but, the workplace etc is a game.

When the gloves are off, behind closed doors, you revert to submission.

The OP has two valid questions, why do the majority of women lean toward a submissive role? and how does this tie in with Feminism?

I think i answered Your questions albeit not in GREAT detail....

quote:

i don't see why that is so surprising. i am a firm supporter in equal rights before the law. However, in general women and men are wired differently.
You always have the exceptions to the rule....Dominant women are exciting to watch, for example, and there are men who will tell you that since childhood, they have been subservient to women. Gender, and what we do with it has nothing to do with equal rights.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 40

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