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RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 3:51:05 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe


As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many female "slaves" who live with their "masters" and I don't know what to think... does it  cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman? How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control? And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.



What would you say if you were with a man who said, "Lunch was shitty. Make it again. Except this time don't use your hands." How fast would you tell him to get lost? Anybody can say "Fuck you, I'm not doing that." Submitting isn't easy. Being an s-type is damned hard. It takes serious control to be able to do it.

I need this control, not only his control, but to an even greater degree, my own control over my own impulses. It gives me a sense of purpose, a sense of belonging, a sense of being a part of something that is larger than I could ever be alone; and it's not just because of him, it's because he pisses me off and degrades me and humiliates me and mindfucks me, and I still have tremendous self-worth, an infinite amount of self-esteem.

Following orders, when it's hard ... and then when it's even harder ... and knowing I will come out the other side still intact because I have such self-respect and such respect for my Dom, is my expression of love (as well as self-love). Tell me what vanilla woman could stand to hear "you're my worthless cunt, aren't you?" on a regular basis and still feel strong in the relationship. (To some subs, such expressions are the equivalent to "I love you, Sweetheart.")

So it's not a matter of having no self-respect. If anything, maybe it's possessing an extreme amount.

Oh. And gender roles - maybe. It probably has something to do with genetic makeup, and we could probably also toss in some psychoanalytic theory, but without running some real emprical studies it would all just be educated guesswork.

Edited to add: I didn't get into the D-side of things, partly because I can't speak as a Dominant, and partly because we were speaking about subs' self-respect.

< Message edited by batshalom -- 5/9/2008 3:53:30 PM >

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 4:35:29 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe


As a feminist, I'm conflicted when it comes to BDSM. When I first got into BDSM, I just thought it was the sex...but now I see so many female "slaves" who live with their "masters" and I don't know what to think... does it  cross a line? How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman? How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control? And why are there so many more female subs than female doms? You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.



Huh?

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 4:47:13 PM   
Huntertn


Posts: 715
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		I remember watching on tv the bra burnings and the almost riots over this.  do what feel right for you if you want; after all, that's what the fight was all about.  However,no one ever said Your fight was for everyone to be a rude,nasty,man hating woman.  Instead, I though it was for the right to have choices in your life that your grandmothers and mothers never had.  And it turns out alot of subs [both male and female] can choice for themselfs.
          Huntertn

(in reply to summersprite)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 5:13:26 PM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Femmeorfoe
How can any man who isn't a total chauvanistic pig physically abuse a woman?


The same way that a woman who isn't a man-hater does it to a man--because it gets him off and he loves it.

quote:

How can a woman who has any self respect let a man have so much control?


Because it makes her wet and she loves it.

A pussy has no politics.

quote:

 And why are there so many more female subs than female doms?


I'm not sure there are, but if there are, it's because the former role is considered more socially acceptable and "natural" within the society that acculturates these women.

quote:

 You have to think that gender roles are the reason why.


Sure.  And?

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 5/9/2008 5:17:31 PM >

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to Femmeorfoe)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 5:17:25 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom



because of him, it's because he pisses me off and degrades me and humiliates me and mindfucks me, and I still have tremendous self-worth, an infinite amount of self-esteem.

Following orders, when it's hard ... and then when it's even harder ... and knowing I will come out the other side still intact because I have such self-respect and such respect for my Dom, is my expression of love (as well as self-love).

I applaud you. Beautifully written.


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to batshalom)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 5:19:23 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

A pussy has no politics.



Also an amzing statement. Wow this is producing some wonderful responsives.


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 5:27:17 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I am sub/slave - and i choose it.

If it were dictated that all women should be sub/slave - i would be on the front lines to fight against it.

It is about choice - the choice of every human to make in freedom, and joy. As i do, and did, and will do every day.  I love my life, and rejoice every day that i have my Sir.

(in reply to Prinsexx)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/9/2008 6:37:20 PM   
SwtJadedGrl


Posts: 60
Joined: 10/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

That's really clever Swtjade


Thank you Prin.  I wrote it a few years back.  Its actually the only thing on my profile right now cuz i just cant think of what i want to put up there at this time.


_____________________________

~~I'll never claim to be your equal, but never mistake me for weak~~

(in reply to Prinsexx)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/10/2008 5:55:35 AM   
Deliena


Posts: 623
Joined: 6/16/2007
From: Darlington, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Well I'm going to step in here as a student of psychology and a raging feminist - so be warned it's likely to be disjointed and ranty!

Feminism is a political movement, it's not a gender stereotype.  Therefore a female submissive gender stereotype being compared to feminism is a bit like attempting to compare the Liberal Democrat movement in the UK with sissy boys.  Just because something has a possible connection doesn't mean that the logical comparison makes sense.

However, the idea that a feminist can't also be a submissive female persona is something I find fascinating - because it's usually women who promulgate this view. This leads to the question must all feminists be the same?  Must all think the same?  Anyone who has ever been to a militant feminist event (meeting, rally, march, drinks <lol>) will know there's as many different types of militant feminist as there are militant feminists.  Possibly because people are individuals?  <sarcasm alert!> What the hell makes anyone think that their lifestyle is the one I should choose?  And why should any other woman think that just because it's her having a go that it's anymore valid than any guy telling me what to do???

I work as a computer programmer, I earn as good a wage as my father (an engineer), I was a trade union representative for 5,000 members from the age of 20.  I consider myself a capable and strong woman.  I have been a single parent (and currently am again), I run my household, I work bloody hard and when I get to bed I don't want to be in charge anymore - I refuse to accept that this tiny part of me makes me a bad feminist.  Because the idea that it does is BS.

Submission within a BDSM context (be it purely in the bedroom or in a more 24/7 context) isn't contradictory to feminism as many here have demonstrated with their eloqent and well thought out posts (thank you guys).  In fact in some ways it's an ultimate expression of feminism, the ability to choose whatever life course I want regardless of my gender ought to be the endgame for all equalists surely?

You may return to your lives now... rant over [wanders off muttering about people who read one bloody book by Germaine sodding Greer ....... mumble]

(in reply to SwtJadedGrl)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: My feminist self is conflicted... - 5/10/2008 6:04:28 AM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: pettingdragons
agreed....it can lead to interesting conversation....and it may help someone along the way...it can also lead to arguements....so ill sit back with my tea on my pillow and enjoy the show...."any one like  a refill?"


Wouldn't you be better having your tea in a cup? sucking it from a soggy pillow seems an unusual quirk... I'll stick to coffee.... from a mug




See it does stir the mind to interesting conversations.....tea helps draw out impurities from the body..... thus sitting on a soggy pilow maybe uncomfortable but it does serve a purpose. **smile**

pettingdragons
**Master Dragons considered slave**

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 50
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