RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq

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Sinergy -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 6:24:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I would think that perhaps a more logical question would be whether the girls inhabiting this school were going to be Sunni or Shia? I am not sure that is a relevant question, domiguy. If we believe the government that Al Qaeda is somehow involved, despite the vast amount of evidence to disprove the claim that Al Qaeda is involved in Iraq, as well as the complete lack of evidence to support it, then perhaps their statement "The administration believes Al Qaeda is responsible" might hold some water. They dont bother to say why the believe it. They just want us to trust them when they say it. Which is why I posted Dr. Venkmann's comment. Nobody but Al Qaeda in a country which is in general anarchy between half a dozen, or more, different battling factions, planting bombs to kill people, could possibly plant a booby trap to kill girls in a school. Did Al Qaeda write their name on the bombs? Did they produce the hardware to manufacture the bombs in some Al Qaeda training camp not already blown up? Did they use a cell phone registered to Al Qaeda as the detonator? I personally find the administration's claim that it was definitely Al Qaeda to rank up there with other twaddle they have been shovelling, like WMDs, etc. Sure, it might possibly be Al Qaeda, but since I dont think the administration could find their ass with both hands if they wrote Al Qaeda on it with a Marks-A-Lot, I think it makes more sense to doubt their claim then jump on the "It Must Be Al Qaeda" bandwagon. Just me, etc. Sinergy

domiguy -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 7:33:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I would think that perhaps a more logical question would be whether the girls inhabiting this school were going to be Sunni or Shia? I am not sure that is a relevant question, domiguy. If we believe the government that Al Qaeda is somehow involved, despite the vast amount of evidence to disprove the claim that Al Qaeda is involved in Iraq, as well as the complete lack of evidence to support it, then perhaps their statement "The administration believes Al Qaeda is responsible" might hold some water. They dont bother to say why the believe it. They just want us to trust them when they say it. Which is why I posted Dr. Venkmann's comment. Nobody but Al Qaeda in a country which is in general anarchy between half a dozen, or more, different battling factions, planting bombs to kill people, could possibly plant a booby trap to kill girls in a school. Did Al Qaeda write their name on the bombs? Did they produce the hardware to manufacture the bombs in some Al Qaeda training camp not already blown up? Did they use a cell phone registered to Al Qaeda as the detonator? I personally find the administration's claim that it was definitely Al Qaeda to rank up there with other twaddle they have been shovelling, like WMDs, etc. Sure, it might possibly be Al Qaeda, but since I dont think the administration could find their ass with both hands if they wrote Al Qaeda on it with a Marks-A-Lot, I think it makes more sense to doubt their claim then jump on the "It Must Be Al Qaeda" bandwagon. Just me, etc. Sinergy Sinergy, what I was alluding to is that there is a potential that based upon what muslims were planning on attending this school if it were to be predominantly Sunni or Shia the other side would love to see it go up n flames. Not necessarily al Qaeda.

Sinergy -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 7:38:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Sinergy, what I was alluding to is that there is a potential that based upon what muslims were planning on attending this school if it were to be predominantly Sunni or Shia the other side would love to see it go up n flames. Not necessarily al Qaeda. There are a bunch of sides. Iran is a Shiite country attempting to foment trouble in Iraq which has a predominantly Shiite population, controlled for years by the Sunni leader Hussein. Al Qaeda is a bunch of militant Sunnis from Saudi Arabia. These people actually hate the more moderate Sunni in their own country. Add all the different warlords from the various organizations (both Sunni and Shiite) who are angling to gain control when the US leaves. Throw in the Kurds. I stick by my point that it is wishful thinking to assume Al Qaeda has any involvement at all, regardless of whether the schoolgirls were Shiite or Sunni. The fact that the Bush Administration jumps to blame everything on Al Qaeda, without bothering to prove any of it, speaks to their attempts to foment fear of the Boogey Man named Al Qaeda. Sinergy

domiguy -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 8:11:57 PM)
I am agreeing with you.

pollux -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 10:24:24 PM)
quote: That is just your opinion, and your opinion is valid to you. I do not agree with your opinion, and I still stand behind the point if you find someone to be a liar some of the time, you cannot trust them.. Now I do not know if you trust liars, because you did not state that you do, but you seem to think it illogical that I do not. I just happen to see the world a little differently I think it's logical to have a healthy skepticism about reports coming out of the military, and to seek independent verification. Nothing wrong with that. I think it's illogical to treat everything the military says as a de facto lie, in order to shield yourself from facts that don't accord themselves with your politics. quote: About courts, lets say just a regular person lies on the stand, a judge will admonish the jury to disregard their testimony, since you did not like the cop analogy, I think you might understand a more simplistic version of it Oh, I understood it just fine (but thanks for the condescension). It's just that the prior version was both weak and inaccurate, whereas this version is merely weak. Om mani padme hum.

juliaoceania -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 10:27:13 PM)
quote: I think it's illogical to treat everything the military says as a de facto lie, in order to shield yourself from facts that don't accord themselves with your politics. What are my politics? ( I refer you to my sigline) quote: Oh, I understood it just fine (but thanks for the condescension). It's just that the prior version was both weak and inaccurate, whereas this version is merely weak If you saw that as condescending, that is about you, not me. Have a nice evening.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 10:50:29 PM)
this all makes me fear for the future!!! Magik's slave

pollux -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 10:50:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I think it's illogical to treat everything the military says as a de facto lie, in order to shield yourself from facts that don't accord themselves with your politics. What are my politics? ( I refer you to my sigline) Your politics are transparently obvious to everyone who reads this board, and for you to pretend otherwise is pretty silly.

juliaoceania -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 11:24:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I think it's illogical to treat everything the military says as a de facto lie, in order to shield yourself from facts that don't accord themselves with your politics. What are my politics? ( I refer you to my sigline) Your politics are transparently obvious to everyone who reads this board, and for you to pretend otherwise is pretty silly. You did not answer my question, and to be honest, I find this rather much a logical fallacy on your part in the first place. "Oh do not listen to what she says, she is a [insert label here]". I do not care what you think of me to be honest, it has no bearing on my life. I wish you well, no matter how negative you are to me. Peace

Lordandmaster -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/6/2007 11:58:17 PM)
That's not a very good example of poisoning the well, and on top of that, it's a flawed analogy. "Poisoning the well" is a kind of argumentum ad hominem. It's an attempt to cast aspersion on someone's argument by presenting unfavorable information about him or her. "Don't listen to him; he's a spokesman for the tobacco lobby" is a perfect example of poisoning the well. (Not that I have any love for the tobacco lobby.) The example you gave isn't apt because the scientists who perpetrated the Piltdown Hoax, the scientists who were wrong about Ether, and so on, are not the same scientists as the scientists who subscribe to the theory of evolution today. The fallacy you're portraying in your example is more like what is known as the fallacy of Division. "Scientists generally have presented all kinds of theories that turned out to be false; therefore, these particular scientists today must also be wrong about evolution." Second, it's a flawed analogy because theories like ether and evolution can conceivably be verified by independent investigators, but there is no way for a reader of this news report to verify its accuracy. And that's exactly the problem that juliaoceania is talking about. Hell, I don't know if this story true, and maybe it is true (although I'm personally convinced that there must be more to the story than was released). But none of that is the point. The point is that I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING that it's true, and in fact I DO know that the armed forces in Iraq have in the past made false reports about things that were similarly unverifiable. So why on earth should anyone believe them now? quote: ORIGINAL: pollux The reason I didn't address it is because it's a fallacy. Specifically it's a fallacy called "poisoning the well". It's not something you can debate. It's a subjective opinion, which you're entitled to, but it isn't debatable because it isn't logical. Suppose I say to you, "I don't believe in the theory of evolution." You ask, "Why?" And I answer you, "Well, it's obvious -- because evolution is a scientific theory and scientists have been wrong about so many things in the past. They were wrong about Piltdown Man, they were wrong about the coming Ice Age, they were wrong about the theory of the Ether. They've been wrong about so many things, why should I believe them now?"

pollux -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 4:38:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster That's not a very good example of poisoning the well, and on top of that, it's a flawed analogy. "Poisoning the well" is a kind of argumentum ad hominem. It's an attempt to cast aspersion on someone's argument by presenting unfavorable information about him or her. "Don't listen to him; he's a spokesman for the tobacco lobby" is a perfect example of poisoning the well. (Not that I have any love for the tobacco lobby.) It's a perfect example of poisoning the well, because that's precisely what she did. quote: The example you gave isn't apt because the scientists who perpetrated the Piltdown Hoax, the scientists who were wrong about Ether, and so on, are not the same scientists as the scientists who subscribe to the theory of evolution today. The fallacy you're portraying in your example is more like what is known as the fallacy of Division. "Scientists generally have presented all kinds of theories that turned out to be false; therefore, these particular scientists today must also be wrong about evolution." And the military commander who made the claim about the explosives in the girls' school is not the same military commander who covered up Pat Tillman's death, etc. quote: Second, it's a flawed analogy because theories like ether and evolution can conceivably be verified by independent investigators, but there is no way for a reader of this news report to verify its accuracy. And that's exactly the problem that juliaoceania is talking about. Hell, I don't know if this story true, and maybe it is true (although I'm personally convinced that there must be more to the story than was released). But none of that is the point. The point is that I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING that it's true, and in fact I DO know that the armed forces in Iraq have in the past made false reports about things that were similarly unverifiable. So why on earth should anyone believe them now? I addressed that question before. Maybe you missed it: quote: I think it's logical to have a healthy skepticism about reports coming out of the military, and to seek independent verification. Nothing wrong with that. I think it's illogical to treat everything the military says as a de facto lie, in order to shield yourself from facts that don't accord themselves with your politics.

juliaoceania -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 5:12:52 PM)
quote: I think it's logical to have a healthy skepticism about reports coming out of the military, and to seek independent verification. Nothing wrong with that. I think it's illogical to treat everything the military says as a de facto lie, in order to shield yourself from facts that don't accord themselves with your politics You know, I aired my thoughts about this news report on this thread. I never declared that I knew the military did anything, or lied about anything. I just said it would not surprise me. I never stated I had evidence of such. I was stating a view that is based upon my past experience with such stories as being more propaganda than reality. Now you may not like my "politics" (which you never seemed to come up with exactly what my political affiliation is, but hey, it's all good), but people can share their thoughts out loud without necessarily having someone jump down their throat and accuse them of poisoning wells. I am not in the position to poison the well, I am posting on a BDSM message board in the "Off Topic" section. I am not involved in a heavy duty debate here. If you would like me to go look up in the annals of history every single instance where we have been lied to in the past, I could do that, but I suspect that you may well be aware of such malfeascance by our government/military. Now you can continue to pick up the mantle of bashing my posts because you do not care for my "politics" (I am assuming you think me a democrat, very humorous really), you would not be the first, nor the last... and there are several around here that snipe at me for that very reason. No biggie, I am very much up to the task of not letting it bother me.

pollux -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 6:21:47 PM)
Only because you can't seem to let it go: quote: (which you never seemed to come up with exactly what my political affiliation is, but hey, it's all good) and quote: (I am assuming you think me a democrat, very humorous really) You are confusing party affiliation and politics. They're not the same. I said your politics are transparent, not your party affiliation. I don't know your party affiliation, and frankly, I don't care. But as to your politics, they are completely transparent and utterly predictable. You reveal them every time you post. There's no need for me to "come up" with anything -- you broadcast them yourself, loud and clear. Unless you're actually a closeted right-wing zionist neocon global-warming denier and this is all some kind of act.

juliaoceania -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 6:35:34 PM)
quote: You are confusing party affiliation and politics. They're not the same. I said your politics are transparent, not your party affiliation. I don't know your party affiliation, and frankly, I don't care. But as to your politics, they are completely transparent and utterly predictable. You reveal them every time you post. There's no need for me to "come up" with anything -- you broadcast them yourself, loud and clear. Unless you're actually a closeted right-wing zionist neocon global-warming denier and this is all some kind of act. I have studied global warming in college. It was not a political exercise, it was an academic one. I am against the war, so are a bunch of other people... Two issues label me as something "political" in your mind. I do abhor killing people, I did not know a person had to be involved with politics to do so. I was thinking about joining a party, but I cannot find one I can really agree with. I am somewhat socially a libertarian, and environmentally I am green, economically I am a social anarchist in some ways.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 8:09:07 PM)
She didn't say it was a lie--de facto or otherwise. Maybe you're committing the fallacy of misrepresentation? quote: ORIGINAL: pollux I addressed that question before. Maybe you missed it: quote: I think it's logical to have a healthy skepticism about reports coming out of the military, and to seek independent verification. Nothing wrong with that. I think it's illogical to treat everything the military says as a de facto lie, in order to shield yourself from facts that don't accord themselves with your politics.

caitlyn -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 8:24:55 PM)
Julia pointed out about three times that she only said that it would not surprise her ... and it didn't seem to matter to some people. It's nice of you to have her back, but it probably won't matter. I'm going to add in ... it wouldn't surprise me either. That doesn't mean I think it's true, or a lie ... only that neither would really surprise me at this point. For Julia ... [;)] http://www.amatex.com/

juliaoceania -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 8:27:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Julia pointed out about three times that she only said that it would not surprise her ... and it didn't seem to matter to some people. It's nice of you to have her back, but it probably won't matter. I'm going to add in ... it wouldn't surprise me either. That doesn't mean I think it's true, or a lie ... only that neither would really surprise me at this point. For Julia ... [;)] http://www.amatex.com/ Thank you so very much Caitlyn! You know, now I can roast those marshmallows without threat of a third degree burn[:D] That made my night!

UtopianRanger -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 8:49:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra They hate and fear women so much over there I am not shocked. Killing little girls probably makes them dance for joy. It would be interesting if for some reason they suddenly couldn't have any more female children and had only boys, then they could marry as many camels as they see fit. ~Lashra Heh....They'd be in a bita trouble, wouldn't they?!!? - R

UtopianRanger -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 8:59:13 PM)
quote: That is just your opinion, and your opinion is valid to you. I do not agree with your opinion, and I still stand behind the point if you find someone to be a liar some of the time, you cannot trust them.. Now I do not know if you trust liars, because you did not state that you do, but you seem to think it illogical that I do not. I just happen to see the world a little differently Julia..... As much as I like and respect my buddy Pollux...... I run my life pretty much the way you've stated above - Once I see an established pattern of deceit from them, who the hell cares if they tell the truth once in a blue moon ; they still have zero credibility with me. - R

FatDomDaddy -> RE: Girls school found rigged in Iraq (5/7/2007 9:45:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I have studied global warming in college. It was not a political exercise, it was an academic one. Since you brought it up then julia.... The Vikings farmed Greenland for well over 400 years. What fossil fuels and man made technologies were causing global warming then? What steps did man take to stop it in the 1300's and bring back the frozen Greenland we all know today?????

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