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How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 10:11:58 AM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		OK in another thread here (Im sure I dont need to name it) some very good points where beeing made yet beeing burried under pages and pages of complete nonsess and bull. I will take my share of the blame for that one but I do think it is importent to take the good points of that thread and start a new.

OK the way I see it is in the BDSM community you have four groups of Doms 1)Those that are abusers and hide behind the title Dom in order to find what they see as a lagitamet way to abuse.
2)Those that want quick and easy sex and hide behind the title Dom because they think it means they can have a slave and demand sexual things from them.
3) those that want someone to do things for them and dont relise a BDSM relationship goes both ways so they hide behind the title Dom to get free labor.
and 4) those that are truely interested in the power exchange want a slave that they can help grow into a slave/sub that will be pleasing for them and work to have a relationship that is mutualy benaficial.

we also have many people under the heading of sub/slave.
those that think that beeing a slave/sub means no responsability and beeing totaly taken care of those that want to be submissive when it is good for them and not when they dont feel like it, brats, as well as people that wish to give themselvs completley. (I know there are some Im forgetting but for me it is harder to see the different and even negative forms os sub/slaves out there so if others wish to give there thougths her I would apreaciate it)You also get sub/slaves that will turn on an Ex Master when the rleationship ended in a way they didnt want and try to get them in trouble with the law

any way what Im saying byt putting those groups out there is thatpeople are at foult on both sides of the power exchange for the problem that we are faceing. Not just the Domanents who unfortunetly get the brunt of bad press.

The truth is that with every case that comes to court that has an underlieing BDSM relationship more eyes are drawn on us and this can be a problem. Dangerouse presadents are beeing set by these trials and it not only casts a bad light on all people the practice BDSM it sends a lot of miss information to vanilla's who already have so much trouble understanding us. When the only contact they have with the BDSM M/s S/M life is negativity and abuse seen through the justice systom they tend to think that is all there is and some are perfectly happy beleaving that. So what is it that we as a community can do to save face, I know we cant stop stupid people from beeing stupid and hideing behind BDSM as way to do stupid things but there has to be a way of makeing it known that we arent all like that and that this isnt about abuse. Also is there a way to stop abuse in the comunity are there things that you all think we could do to help eachother.

It isnt us against them but how do we make them see that.


Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-


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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 10:28:59 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Contact NCSF and ask them how to help.  Go from there.

As for the rest- how do you stop abuse in vanilla relationships?

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 10:32:01 AM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		Exactly LA... with this thread I was just trying to point out the good points from the curcus of a thread that Herem started. I myself have little or no answers and dont beleave I know it all and thus the reason a question was asked.


Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 10:43:12 AM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Contact NCSF and ask them how to help.  Go from there.

As for the rest- how do you stop abuse in vanilla relationships?

I believe this is the right link to it.
http://www.ncsfreedom.org/

< Message edited by WhiplashSmile -- 3/30/2007 10:50:10 AM >

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 11:39:34 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

OK the way I see it is in the BDSM community you have four groups of Doms 1)Those that are abusers and hide behind the title Dom in order to find what they see as a lagitamet way to abuse.
2)Those that want quick and easy sex and hide behind the title Dom because they think it means they can have a slave and demand sexual things from them.
3) those that want someone to do things for them and dont relise a BDSM relationship goes both ways so they hide behind the title Dom to get free labor.
and 4) those that are truely interested in the power exchange want a slave that they can help grow into a slave/sub that will be pleasing for them and work to have a relationship that is mutualy benaficial.

Not a bad assessment, and also the crux of the problem.

Ask yourself who is villafying BDSM?  Answer: those outside it.
Why?  Answer:  Partly because they don't understand it and people tend to fear and attack what they don't understand.  Partly because it offends the ideology of some people (some feminists, some Christians, etc. and its not all of these various groups, just portions).  Partly because when those outside it hear about it, its most likely because of some news story which involves a dead body or other victim, crimes, sensationalism, lurid details, etc.

So in light of that, what can you do about it.  And that's the tricky bit.  The long hard answer is you educate people, but even that isn't that simple.  Educate them about what?  They key bit is to educate them about the difference between a consensual lifestyle between adults vs the stuff they see in headlines and Hollywood.  Doing that gets even more tricky when you look around and realize how many people within the lifestyle can't distinguish the difference.

Maybe if we had membership cards and an official and enforced code of conduct as a handy way of defining who's an OK BDSMer or Gorean or what have you vs. an abusive criminal outcast.  But who are we kidding, that's not going to happen.  Besides which you really wouldn't want it too, after all, who would you trust to write that code of conduct... and exactly what does "enforced" mean?  Scary stuff.

Some of it you can't stop, there are individuals who will always hate this and seek to attack it.  You can try educating people, but that takes time, its a slow process to change cultural attitudes.  All most people can do is encourage a bit of fair mindedness in their own back yard... which might turn out to be far more effective than you think.

Public displays of kinkiness don't help either.  While many people within the lifestyle view the Folsom Street Fair as a wonderful thing, to those outside it they see just another FreakFest.  The news media is leary of covering such events because, heck, a naked or topless pony girl is not what Mom and Pop Q Public really want the kiddies seeing on the evening news... even if she is pixelated out.  On the other hand, how often do you hear about free community seminars on what BDSM is and isn't... and why its not a threat to Mom and Pop Public and their kidlets (though I have heard of a few on why BDSM is a threat... ). 

Is there a shorter, easier route?  Maybe... you could try making a joke of BSDM... its damn hard for most people to hate something they're laughing at.  Course then you'll have a new cause.... how to get people to take you seriously.  Always a catch isn't there.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 12:19:35 PM   
BrokenDoll


Posts: 106
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		..

< Message edited by BrokenDoll -- 3/30/2007 12:20:01 PM >

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 12:26:55 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

OK the way I see it is in the BDSM community you have four groups of Doms 1)Those that are abusers and hide behind the title Dom in order to find what they see as a lagitamet way to abuse.
2)Those that want quick and easy sex and hide behind the title Dom because they think it means they can have a slave and demand sexual things from them.
3) those that want someone to do things for them and dont relise a BDSM relationship goes both ways so they hide behind the title Dom to get free labor.
and 4) those that are truely interested in the power exchange want a slave that they can help grow into a slave/sub that will be pleasing for them and work to have a relationship that is mutualy benaficial.

Not a bad assessment, and also the crux of the problem.



Master and i had a long conversation about this the other night and that is why I felt the need to put it in here and I agree that this is the core of the problem, but I didnt want to seem as if my views are one sided because they are not and so i felt the need to add the submissives into it as well becuase subs do their fair share to make BDSM look bad as well it isnt all just so called Masters that chop up girls and put them in barrals or feed them to the live stock that has jaded people to our way of life.

and as always Padriag you make very good points.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 12:27:55 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well there are community members in some places that are providing classroom hours to explain to "vanilla" community members what they need to  know to understand the difference The NLA anti domestic violence campaign, The NCSF law enforcement liason program, as well as some of the folks we know as authors and educators who gointo college classrooms invited by professors teaching human sexuality and psycology and several other related subjects, and give a class on what we do, and what differenciates us from criminals.

Many of the buzzwords we have around today started of as a means to do exactly that.
limits, safewords, safecalls, SSC, RACK, negotiations, etc.

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 12:31:46 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		Many of the buzzwords we have around today started of as a means to do exactly that.
limits, safewords, safecalls, SSC, RACK, negotiations, etc.



ah yes the very same buzz words that puts a bee in so many people's bonnets here!!!

LOL I just find that funny!!


Magik's slave
 
 


_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 12:36:52 PM   
Kris2012


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		In my opinion... I don't really think you can. Not completely. Unfortunately, I think it's part of the whole BDSM package. It's shadow, so to speak. Every social group has one. For the Pagans, It's the FluffBunnies. For the Gays, It's the Fem-nazis and the "I'm-so-steriotyped" steriotypical queers. For Islamics, it's AlQuidad (Or however it's spelled.) ect, ect, ect.

Every group will have those people who are going to use the group for a negative purpose. And the bigger a group gets the more negative the group will have just by precentage. (IOW, the difference between 10% of 100 people and 10% of 100,000 people). In some ways that sucks. But in other ways I can almost see it as a good, or at least a neccessary thing. Because the "shadows" serve as a reminder to what you can become if you don't watch yourself.



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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 12:56:30 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear MagiksSlave, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I have read the original post and those that have come after, to which all have made excellent points.
 
In my mind's eyes, civilization has always used vilification of another group, individual, class and or religion as to justify a position and or standard.  We, in general have witnessed such even in this forum and doubt if we (in general) can ever erase the nature to vilify others.  In my mind's eyes I see; there are cases when it is unjust and the incorrect thing to do, to vilify an individual, a group, a movement and or the like.  In the American History, we witnessed many examples where one group vilified another.  Salem, Mass., many an innocent was vilified for becoming victim to the LSD or acid trips caused by grains and a matter of nature instead of human tampering but, ignorance and fear caused many to be hung as witches, warlocks and or possessed by evil spirits.  We (in general) have witnessed similiar vilifying behaviors against the Negros/Blacks, Native American Indians, Irish, Chinese, Jews, Middle-Easterns, Gays, Lesbians, Mixed-raced individuals, Women, heavy individuals and the list goes on.
 
Justification in vilifying an individual, a group, an organization and the like, in my mind's eyes; should be those who have without doubt and with evidence that stands strong and independent of any prejudice and or cliques surrounding to protect one of their own; has done harm/injury by their own actions and behaviors.  We have witnessed in the Washington, DC area such people; such as the Scott Tyree case to which he knowingly, willfully transported a juvenile across state lines and left the female bound and unable to escape at his home when he was at work.  Law Enforcement discovered the underaged female bound and unattended, a rule in bondage broken in our lifestyle, let alone keeping under aged out of the adult theater of BDSM period!  There have been other cases across the Nation and perhaps the World.
 
In summary, as much as anybody would love to halt the BDSM, Lifestyle community, et.al. from being vilified--there will be bad apples within the lifestyle, BDSM, M/s, D/s and or S&M who will cause attention to their evil and we (in a general sense) will be painted by a broad brush.  It is no different then any form of prejudice.  The only thing that can be done, like what has to be done in any 'at risk' group and or class of people; is to be the normal rather then the exception.
In my mind's eyes--the community/BDSM/lifestyle must re-affirm with resolve to live to a higher standard of conduct, attitude, behavior and tolerances with a postive intent and spirit.  In my mind's eyes I see--it all begins with me/you.  One person with the realization that we all are individual ambassadors/representatives and what any of us do, has a ripple affect which effects the community at large.  Only then can those who have evil intentions and or designs among us will be uncomfortable and hopefully leave it for other areas to prey upon.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 1:35:56 PM   
meesekite


Posts: 53
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hello all...
An interesting thread, and lovely and eloquent words by Lady Hugs. However, Im not sure I aggree that we must strive to be "normal" so we can be accepted by a vanilla population who thinks that there is no way BDSM fits within any normative range. Striving to define what we do as "normal" only means that those who do, also seek to be "normal". And as the definition of what is normal in a society is ever changing, I dont think we should chase an ever elusive norm.

I also agree with previous posters that there can be no "official" sanctioned set of what is BDSM, because so many in the community have their own various notion of what comprises BDSM. It would be too easy (and it does happen often) for someone to claim what THEY do is BDSM, and what others do is not. And such claims can be made based on various biases, prejudices, and beliefs.

I think that what the vanilla community needs to understand is that they are free to hate what we do. They are fine in their belief that its wrong, so long as they dont apply their moral standards to our acts, and force us to act as they do.  I think they need to understand that all that happens within BDSM as distasteful as they may find it happens within the realm of consent. The individual acts themselves are not really relevant. What is relevant is that there is consent for those acts. Saying that consent is all that matters eliminates the "my kink is fine but your kink is wrong" element which is so prevalent in some people. If we stress that no matter the act, if it happens within the bounds of consenting adults then we aggree (even if we find the particular act not to our taste), THEN I feel we do the BDSM community justice.

An example: while I myself dont get age play, and think its disturbing and distasteful, I will defend passionately consenting adults rights to do so as part of their BDSM dynamic. Nor will I ever say, state or believe that people shouldnt have any rights to do age play. I dont have to get it, or to like it. What I HAVE to do is defend peoples rights to engage in consenting adult sexual expression, in whatever form that expression takes.

Sincerely,
meesekite

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 1:36:46 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		It won't be villafied if it is moved to villanova.



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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 1:39:47 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		It's time we organized a "Secret Death Squad" to 'dissapear" those a-holes that are going to ruin the fun for everyone.

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 1:39:51 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hmm I dont recall saying anything about beeing normal or becomeing normal??? If that is what it sounded like it is not what I ment.. Notmal is an unantainable non existant thing!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 1:53:56 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Notmal is an unantainable non existant thing!!

Not true!  Its a setting on my dryer, I checked.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 1:56:02 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Notmal is an unantainable non existant thing!!

Not true!  Its a setting on my dryer, I checked.


LOL

A Dom that does laundry (or at least knows where the laundry room is ) Im impressed
LOL

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 2:15:37 PM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline
Greetings,
 
I am going to actually be the bad person here and say straight out; what does any of this have to do with me personally? If another decides to take their relationship public in such a way, it really does not affect me one bit. The only person I worry about is Master; and I let him worry about me.
 
It may be callous but I have never believed in getting involved in others business. If those in the vanilla world want to view me as a bit off my rocker because I tend to bow down to a man; then so be it. They are welcome to their narrow-mindedness. If they wish to know why I act the way I do, they will get an honest answer. It is then up to them to either accept or refuse. Either way, it still does not affect my relationship with Master.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 2:16:08 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

I think the BDSM community would benfit a lot by coming out of the closet as a whole and following the lessons taught to us by the gay and lesbian rights groups. It becomes a lot harder to hate and distrust a group of people when suddenly your daughter, your best friend or your parent is "one of them". I think that would also help cut down on abuse hidden as BDSM because as people become more educated they will be less likely to believe "Baby I only hitcha cause I thought we were playing rough" or whatever those creeps say.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: How do we keep BDSM from beeing villafied - 3/30/2007 2:19:37 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		It will never be accepted...I would be leading the charge to have you two burned at the stake.

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