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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 11:35:35 AM   
FukinTroll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i was over at a friends house the other day and i popped a statement up that we ended up debating.  We ended with "agree to disagree" type thing, but i'm curious as to what you all think. 

Can you rape a (collared, owned) slave?  On top of that can a (collared, owned) slave withdraw consent and yet still continue on the relationship?  Basically, do you all think a (collared, owned) slave can say "i'm not in the mood" (hence withdrawing consent) and if the slave's Dom continues on it is rape?



IMO a slave has the right to withdraw consent once. Then I will watch her pack and leave.

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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 12:10:32 PM   
junecleaver


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Status: offline 		I guess it depends on the dynamics of the relationship since 'slave' can mean a number of different things in an individual relationship.  For my relationship, 'I'm not in the mood.' is just information for him.  When I say I'm not in the mood, I'm not saying no.  I'm just providing some information about what's going on in my head.  Screaming no, fighting, and crying is just information for him.  I am allowed to give this information and under the right circumstances I am allowed to fight back.  He has the final decision because I gave it to him at the start of the relationship.  You can't rape the willing, even if they don't look very willing at that particular moment. If I withdrew consent...it would be a whole lot longer and packed with more information than, "I'm not in the mood."  It would also throw our relationship out of whack and honestly I don't know how it would be possible to recover after something like that.

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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 4:32:59 PM   
BlackWomanSubNJ


Posts: 54
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		If there is no safe word, and the deal is total sexual control over you, then the window for rape is pretty small.  If you have what You consider to be a sane Dom, then He would likely not take undue advantage if you were really in a situation where sex would be harmful to you.

But, there is no option to "withdraw consent" if you are true to the relationship.  If you really want to withdraw consent, then you don't want Him to be your Dom.  If you're not in the mood, then you need to try to be elsewhere.  Otherwise, grin and bear it, babe, that's what you signed on for.

When I turned over control to my Dom, the words "I'm not in the mood" left my vocabulary.

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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 4:34:02 PM   
MadRabbit


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Interestesting thread and unfortanely I really cant add anymore to it.

This is one of those times when the world of BDSM clashes with the realities of the legal world in regards to whether they "CAN" or "CANNOT"

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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 4:44:59 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		Why would you want to rape someone else's property without their permission, ? If they are your property, you know their limits.
I think it is all about knowing your limits and responsibilities to each other as a couple.   I detest anything to do with a rape scene. 

Regards,

MissSCD

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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 4:56:36 PM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		In the real world (remember, that's where we live) if a slave says "no, I'm not in the mood" and the Dom proceeds against her wishes, the yes, it is rape. However, within the context of the agreement between the two of them, if she has previously agreed to be a no-limits slave and to sex on demand, then no, it's not rape. The tricky part is, that as much as we would like to believe the constructs created within D/s are absolute, they are not. They only exist so far as both parties choose to recognize them and co-create them on an ongoing basis. If one party decides that he/she is not going to play their part, then we are back to the real world, in which there are no slaves. At that point the two parties then need to decide if they want to end the relationship (Dom releases slave) or renegotiate the terms.


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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 5:03:17 PM   
Celeste43


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From: NYS
Status: offline 		It depends on the relationship. If there is a known history of sexual abuse, and understanding that situations cannot be set up which will set off panic attacks, PTSD etc and the owner does it anyway, then certainly it's rape. If you say he can even if you're tired then it isn't.

Just saying you aren't in the mood doesn't define the situation enough. But if she withdraws consent then obviously there is a serious breakdown in communication. Everything should stop until the miscommunication ends and both parties can clearly discuss what's been going on and what hasn't been working.

Can you continue the relationship once you work out the problem? Yes.

Can you continue the relationship as deeply if there has been a serious breach of trust? Doubtful.

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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 6:38:40 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i was over at a friends house the other day and i popped a statement up that we ended up debating.  We ended with "agree to disagree" type thing, but i'm curious as to what you all think. 

Can you rape a (collared, owned) slave?  On top of that can a (collared, owned) slave withdraw consent and yet still continue on the relationship?  Basically, do you all think a (collared, owned) slave can say "i'm not in the mood" (hence withdrawing consent) and if the slave's Dom continues on it is rape?



IMO a slave has the right to withdraw consent once. Then I will watch her pack and leave.


Well put, FukinTroll.

I am not sure I am that black and white about it, but then, I dont do slaves.

As others have posted, he/she/it knew what they were getting in to when the signed on for the duty.  They dont like the dynamic, perhaps they will find what they need elsewhere.

Sinergy

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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 6:51:38 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i was over at a friends house the other day and i popped a statement up that we ended up debating.  We ended with "agree to disagree" type thing, but i'm curious as to what you all think. 

Can you rape a (collared, owned) slave?  On top of that can a (collared, owned) slave withdraw consent and yet still continue on the relationship?  Basically, do you all think a (collared, owned) slave can say "i'm not in the mood" (hence withdrawing consent) and if the slave's Dom continues on it is rape?



Rape is rape.

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RE: Curious - 3/15/2007 2:41:11 AM   
knotz2u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Driver1961

He dips His lid again.

Sorry to disagree with some people that I really respect here but simply what is the bottom line at LAW, forget the BDSM world, get into the real world.  No is No, and real-life people will clearly acknowledge that and attempt to seek empowerment for the wronged.

Lordy Lordy Lordy, My Master is no longer- I have been freed, I ams free, and I have the law to thank for that.


In a legal sense, Driver is %100 correct. Speqaking as an ex cop, If anyone makes a complaint of "RAPE", any law enforcement officer has absolutely no choice but to make the arrest and let the legal system take it's course. Would you feel comfortable going into your trial claiming "She told me I could" as your defense. All I can say in that area is good luck!!!!!!. Besides, where is the trust. Isn't there supposed to be boundries.

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RE: Curious - 3/15/2007 5:41:13 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

Rape is rape.

agreed

quote:

In a legal sense, Driver is %100 correct. Speqaking as an ex cop, If anyone makes a complaint of "RAPE", any law enforcement officer has absolutely no choice but to make the arrest and let the legal system take it's course. Would you feel comfortable going into your trial claiming "She told me I could" as your defense. All I can say in that area is good luck!!!!!!. Besides, where is the trust. Isn't there supposed to be boundries.

and would like to add, your title as Dom/Master/Sir carries no weight in our legal system. you still raped a woman without her consent no matter what she is to you.


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RE: Curious - 3/15/2007 8:11:20 AM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold
Rape is rape.



quote:


In a legal sense, Driver is %100 correct. Speqaking as an ex cop, If anyone makes a complaint of "RAPE", any law enforcement officer has absolutely no choice but to make the arrest and let the legal system take it's course. Would you feel comfortable going into your trial claiming "She told me I could" as your defense. All I can say in that area is good luck!!!!!!. Besides, where is the trust. Isn't there supposed to be boundries.


quote:


and would like to add, your title as Dom/Master/Sir carries no weight in our legal system. you still raped a woman without her consent no matter what she is to you.


I would like to add that we are walking a fine line here. Again she/he has the "POWER" to withdraw his/her consent. This isn't something you sit and think about later. It is a very serious point to contemplate and have a strong position on before you even enter into your dynamic. Draw your line clearly and when you reach that line withdraw your consent and be prepared to walk away or be commanded away. Should the D proceed after consent has been withdrawn then press all those charges you like. However, if you decide after the fact to withdraw that consent and then press the charges... shame on you. 


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RE: Curious - 3/15/2007 11:57:54 PM   
obey1


Posts: 227
Joined: 11/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Driver1961

He dips His lid to all;

Umm, well here we go with the 'slave n Master bit' of property rights again.  It is this 'property'view that many Masters take as a licence for 'topping Sadism' that I take issue.  A distinct No means what?- Yes???!!! like come-on where is the consent?  It is non-consentual acts perpetrated upon victims that are criminal offences.  Whether the so called 'Master' produced a contract of slavery or not,  I would have rigously pursued this form of sex offence investigation to alleviate the psychological harm caused upon the victim by another who sees HisHer Master status as nullifying any form of consideration upon their actions on a fellow human being.  Any court in any (so called) civilized country would seek to protect a basic human principle- the right of choice. Being a so called Master offers no protection but a media frenzy of deserved exposure.   I'd have told my bosses to put it before a jury to decide.

Regards to all, Driver.



HERE,HERE!

That would be my opinion too.

Let's put it the other way with alcohol...what if the Dom comes home stinking drunk, walks in, starts REALLY slapping his 'slave' around and then injures her through forcing himself upon her or using some other object to violate her?  If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it really make a sound?

I mean, really....remember the movie "In space, no one can hear you scream?"  That is because in true 'space' there are not enough molecules of air to reflect soundwaves to your ear.

People seem to think sometimes that being a 'true' slave allows criminal activity to occur if that is your pleasure.

I just tend to think "In the complete absence of morality, no one can hear you get raped by your 'owner'."

For me a contract of slavery is not binding in this way.  That is what safe words are for.  "No" should not be a safe word, as we all know, but there should be a definite temporary 'out' for a slave just as there is for a sub.  Otherwise damage WILL occur.  Then in better circumstances the slave can re-evaluate the contract just as the master can.

"I was very afraid and hurt last night for what you did, Sir.  I would like a leave of absence to reconsider what your final plans are for me."

"I was very angry last night that you used your safe word on me, bitch.  I was going to rape the shit out of you, get the fuck out you disobedient cunt!"

< Message edited by obey1 -- 3/16/2007 12:14:55 AM >

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RE: Curious - 3/16/2007 12:22:24 AM   
obey1


Posts: 227
Joined: 11/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: knotz2u

Speaking as an ex cop, If anyone makes a complaint of "RAPE", any law enforcement officer has absolutely no choice but to make the arrest and let the legal system take it's course. Would you feel comfortable going into your trial claiming "She told me I could" as your defense. All I can say in that area is good luck!!!!!!.


My thoughts exactly.  Except the unfortunate few percent that have extreme self-esteem problems will probably never try to even resolve it.  All I can say is "Sexual Predator" and there are laws against that too, for the rest of your natural life.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Curious - 3/16/2007 1:03:35 AM   
MastersofPain


Posts: 13
Joined: 2/18/2006
Status: offline 		Having read through the post, all of them, I have seen what I think is a common link.  Everyone here seems to be speaking of one type of BDSM.  SSC (Safe, Sane, and Consentual) BDSM allows for everything that has been discussed here.  Now, before anyone jumps my ass, I am all for SSC.  My wife is one of the NLA's Domestic Violence Coordinators (Celtic247Angel) and I would be in really deep shit if I tried any of what I'm about to go into with her around.
Another school of thought in the BDSM lifestyle if RACK (Risk Aware Consentual Kink).  This IS where "s/he told me I could" becomes very difficult to moderate.  I know of one couple here in North Carolina that follow these rules and even after the slaves jaw was broken the slave continued to see the dom because it was the slaves place to assume the responsibility for their own safety.  RACK is something that is, IMO, very dangerous and very unnecessary.  Especially in the hands of those who are immature enough to think that "s/he told me I could" will stand up in a court of law. 
Going back to the orginal line of discussion, RACK seems to be the only defense here.  Since, under the rules of RACK the sub has no choice but to obey.  So if you subscribe to RACK, be prepared to spend a lot of "time" with Bubba in cell block A.

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RE: Curious - 3/16/2007 1:17:57 AM   
AZSweetie


Posts: 147
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline 		When you have entered into the relationship there should already be an understandingf as to what is acceptable to both partners and what is not. If the slave has agreed to do whatever is wished by the Master sexually and non-sexually to me everything is already consensual. i think if something were to happen that the slave was uncomfortable with then it should be discussed. If an agreement is came to about a "Rape" type situation or roleplay on what is acceptable and what is not and it happens again and the slave was not consenting to it then yes i think it would then be considered rape.

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