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RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:17:50 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		There were times in my marriage when I felt like I was used as a sexual toilet. It was obvious *I* was not a necessary part of the equation in what was supposed to be a loving relationship with an equal. Was it rape? Some people would say so; some would say not. All I know is I felt dirty inside when it was over. My respect for him eroded a little more each time it happened. I have a feeling the same erosion would take place with a Dominant/Master who practiced the same uncaring sexual use of me too.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:19:23 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i was over at a friends house the other day and i popped a statement up that we ended up debating.  We ended with "agree to disagree" type thing, but i'm curious as to what you all think. 

Can you rape a (collared, owned) slave?  On top of that can a (collared, owned) slave withdraw consent and yet still continue on the relationship?  Basically, do you all think a (collared, owned) slave can say "i'm not in the mood" (hence withdrawing consent) and if the slave's Dom continues on it is rape?



This is almost another one of those "what rights DO slaves have?" debates. 

From the basic side...if a slave has agreed to no-limits, anytime-the-master-wants-doesn't-matter-if-its-rough-or-gentle-or-flowers-came-first sex, then why would she even tell him she's not in the mood in the first place?  Seems to me like trying to not live up to the bargain she made in the first place when she agreed to give up her right to have any say over her sexual play.

Since things are rarely basic...if the master of this owned slave knows that what he is doing is causing mental or physical harm of a serious nature to his slave, he knows it is his duty to take care of his property---hurt it if he wants to but not harm it---then yes, he is committing rape.

Just for kicks...let's make it a little more twisted, given the human capacity for complexity in situations....just where is the mental harm coming from?  Because she had a mental image in her mind of how strong and safe and wonderful and kindly and noble and wonderfully cruel in his sadism her master is because he has never shown this scary, forceful, take-it-because-I-can-and-I-don't-give-a-fuck-whether-she-wants-it-or-not attitude before and it completely blows away not only her image of him but of her own visualization of herself as a "no-limits" slave?  Is the mental harm coming from the fact that she has said "I don't feel like it" to a man and this is one man who doesn't honor her request/statement/new-and-uncommunicated-until-now limit?  Or does it come from something else entirely?

***Disclaimer:  The above paragraphs are my attempt to answer a question of interest.  Since I am not a slave owner at this time, never have been, and have no plans in the foreseeable future to be one, it must be understood by the reader(s) of the paragraphs above that these statements are not made with any experience as a slave owner but only with the intelligence and curiosity that resides within this magnificent vessel known as "me" to myself and "you" to my friends.
Please note that there is no denigration of any belief or philosophy in the statements above.  Please respond in kind, should you choose to do so.
This disclaimer valid in the U. S. and any of its owned principalities as well as any country that the U. S. has entered into any sort of working agreement with.***

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:22:34 AM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		He dips to Hisannabelle,

Yes, annebelle, I take your point and Devilslilsister's posts in correct context there is a fundamental bottom line here which is what I'm pointing at.   I understand the 'Slave submission gig' and how one can beso confused in not living up to their end of the bargain- submission, but there still is the appropriate care from one human to another at law and even expected in a M/s relationship.  Simply if one fails to respect another- expect the consequences.

Regards Driver


_____________________________

Dance as though nobody is watching!

(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:26:42 AM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Now that's a cool disclaimer CREATIVE!

For the record I am not, will not be, nor have been a Slave Owner- bugger for starters I don't have a plantation.  Hell I couldn't even get water for one  with our droughts here in Aussie.

_____________________________

Dance as though nobody is watching!

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:30:54 AM   
ONEDEMANDINGMSTR


Posts: 47
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Driver
I think you said it all, in a nut shell.  It's My understanding that slavery 'contracts', under law, have no standing. Consequently, and Doms/Masters beware, any sub/slave can claim rape at any time.........!!!!!!!!

Therefore, it seems to be a moral imperative, if not common sense , to 'know' your sub/slave very well before you override her protests, for whatever reason! This applies equally to any form of corporal punishment!!

So, guys, be very cautious with whom you are dealing...............Get to know her!!
But that should be a foregone conclusion at the beginning of any BDSM relationship.  Just a word to the wise.

(in reply to Driver1961)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:35:40 AM   
StellaByStarlite


Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

quote:

BUT... if I were genuinely sick, in pain, or emotionally wrung out, and he still insisted on sex, I'd still obey, but I would absolutely feel betrayed and degraded. If he was doing something to me sexually that was physically damaging and refused to stop, then by default, he no longer has MY well being at heart and has failed as a Master.


True, you might be unhappy about it.  But in the begining, did you consent to obey no matter what?  (no matter what being a realistic idea here.... if he said to jump off a bridge that wouldnt be realistic)  Almost like the marriage vows.  "to honor obey in sickness and in health"  So you are only a slave when you are healthy?  In sickness you arent?  (obviously the physical damage.. ie long term damage.. isnt realistic either)

You wouldnt feel "in good use" even if you were sick?  You wouldnt be happy to submit?   (and heck, sometimes getting laid while your sick can be quite nice, all those unpleasant feelings and whooosh... a rush of pleasure!)

P.S. i'm not being personal here.. just debating the debate. 




hey. =)

I think this may have more to do with personality and physical health then anything else. When I get sick.. I get worn-out, drug-down, exhausted, in bed for 2 days straight sick. Sad, but true. So, no.... I wouldn't feel put to good use, I'd feel like shit. ;)

But, yes, if it came to it, I'd obey, because as you stated, I surrendered myself to him as his property. But if hypothetically, my owner made a habit of demanding sex when when I was in bad physical condition, I would start to question to seriously question his authority.

Stella

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:41:06 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Driver1961

He dips His lid again.

Sorry to disagree with some people that I really respect here but simply what is the bottom line at LAW, forget the BDSM world, get into the real world.  No is No, and real-life people will clearly acknowledge that and attempt to seek empowerment for the wronged.

Lordy Lordy Lordy, My Master is no longer- I have been freed, I ams free, and I have the law to thank for that.


Except that the OP didn't ask what the legal interpretation of the situation was, but rather the philosophical interpretation.

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to Driver1961)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:41:54 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Consider the question posed, "Can a husband rape a wife?" Well, the government has determined he can. Its pragmatic what the rest of us think. I don't think any government recognizes a collar relationship therefore there is no doubt that a Dom/Master "can" rape a slave/sub; at minimum in the eyes of the law.

When these questions arrive addressing what to do after the fact my immediate reaction is to wonder why people forgot to talk about it before? That applies to marriage or, if taken as serious and not a weekend warrior, a collar. Better yet, why enter into a relationship with someone you feel capable of an act considered non-consensual. Master/slave or Dom/sub are consensual relationships that have responsibilities for both parties, similar to husband wife, at least they should be. Breaching those responsibilities is reason for divorce, separation, "release", or dissolving the union. It is not a reason to rape.

(in reply to Driver1961)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:42:06 AM   
freebird


Posts: 6
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i was over at a friends house the other day and i popped a statement up that we ended up debating.  We ended with "agree to disagree" type thing, but i'm curious as to what you all think. 

Can you rape a (collared, owned) slave?  On top of that can a (collared, owned) slave withdraw consent and yet still continue on the relationship?  Basically, do you all think a (collared, owned) slave can say "i'm not in the mood" (hence withdrawing consent) and if the slave's Dom continues on it is rape?


Can you rape a slave is like asking if a wife can be raped by her husband. I see it as something that becomes situational and dependent on circumstance.
Can a slave withdraw consent at any given time? Of course, just as anyone has that legal right to do so. The question arises though, what are the reasons behind the withdraw.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:45:54 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
I had to think about this for a minute, but I think that a slave cannot be raped, but they can feel (and possibly be) violated and/or exploited.  To me the main thing is that a slave consents to be used sexually whenever (including when they are not in the mood).  But, I think that someone unaware (or niave) about what they've consented to who then decides to change their mind may feel violated in the type of situation you outlined.

C~

Agreed.

I will also add that if the slave does truly within herself decide to end the relationship without permission from the owner, then all precepts of the relationship are null and void.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:50:35 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

Basically, do you all think a (collared, owned) slave can say "i'm not in the mood"


LOL Only if she is your wife too!

Seriously, if that is the case, what is the point of having a slave? Why would you want to be a slave if you can withdraw consent on a whim?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 7:52:44 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		You can rape anyone...GF, BF, husband, wife, stranger...whomever. It's psychological damage. Being their Master, Owner or Dominant doesn't mean that you aren't capable of causing damage. Now, how a slave deals with the damage might be different...and they might be able to repair is much more readily than one of the other people mentioned...simply because they might have given you the authority to do what you did. Doesn't mean they're not damaged...it means that they gave you the authority to damage and thus they have to decide if they want to continue that or not.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 8:03:06 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

I had to think about this for a minute, but I think that a slave cannot be raped, but they can feel (and possibly be) violated and/or exploited.  To me the main thing is that a slave consents to be used sexually whenever (including when they are not in the mood).  But, I think that someone unaware (or niave) about what they've consented to who then decides to change their mind may feel violated in the type of situation you outlined.

C~


I agree with this. 

I can say no, and then I won't be a slave anymore.

Perhaps legally I can claim rape, but I wouldn't see it as rape.  I am owned by him which means the day I begged for his ownership I consented to him having rights to me - to use me whenever he wants, however he wants, and wherever he wants.  Personally, I am grateful he puts me to use and grateful he finds pleasure in me, even when I'm sick, exhausted, and stressed.  What better way to refocus and come back to myself than to have my Master's attention?

So no, I can not be raped by my Master. 

Edited to fix a duplicate word :)

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 3/14/2007 8:18:57 AM >

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 8:08:52 AM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		Anal sex is illegal.  Spitting in some places is illegal, going bare back in some places is illegal....... the law doesnt really apply to what we do.  IMO  One of the reasons i didnt get into the legality of it.  Slapping your sub/slave in the face can you have arrested for assault.  Another interesting point brought up in the debate i had.  Its not just subs/slaves that need to have alot of trust, but the Dom's as well.  A Dom must be able to trust that after he whips that bottom with a belt (leaving all sorts of marks) the sub/slave doesnt run off to the police screaming abuse. 

i was also considering all of this aside from a Dom not having the best interests of their sub/slave in mind.  Granted, when it comes to that - there are many indicators of it and hopefully the eye opener wouldnt come soley from between the sheets behavior.  One of the reasons i didnt bring it into the topic. 

Creative - LOL interesting point.  Also a good point IMO

Stella - i'm going to have to agree on the health thing.  i can see where you are coming from and i think its also an interesting view on personal dynamics in relationships.  We all operate differently and the key (IMO) in most relationships is knowing how your other operates. 

As for husband/wife things, IMO thats a totally different story.

< Message edited by Devilslilsister -- 3/14/2007 8:10:42 AM >

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to Driver1961)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 8:12:32 AM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

I had to think about this for a minute, but I think that a slave cannot be raped, but they can feel (and possibly be) violated and/or exploited.  To me the main thing is that a slave consents to be used sexually whenever (including when they are not in the mood).  But, I think that someone unaware (or niave) about what they've consented to who then decides to change their mind may feel violated in the type of situation you outlined.

C~


I agree with this. 

I can say no, and then I won't be a slave anymore.

Perhaps legally I can claim rape, but I wouldn't see it as rape.  I am owned by him which means the day I begged for his ownership I consented to him having rights to me - to use me whenever he wants, however he wants, and wherever he wants.  Personally, I am grateful he puts me to use and grateful he finds pleasure in me, even when I'm sick, exhausted, and stressed.  What better way to refocus and back back to myself than to have my Master's attention?

So no, I can not be raped by my Master. 


pretty much i agree with both of you and those of like minds.


_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 8:17:01 AM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		i think it's kind of out of place to consider "not being in the mood" to be equal to rape. it -can- be, but it isn't always, and i think it's 99% of the time not likely to be the case in what we're talking about here. i've had sex PLENTY of times when i wasn't in the mood, with people other than my dominant, and not considered it rape, although occasionally i've had similar feelings of physical violation. i think it's important to make the distinction between rape and the violation it causes...rape being non-consensual, and the situations we're talking about being primarily consensual, but producing the same emotions, which then -could- cause some to question the relationship and how they fit into it. for me, and maybe it's because of my own experience with rape - as in, the definitely, no question, it was rape kind of rape - i would be more affected by it if it were violent, harmful sex that pushed beyond what he knows is healthy for me than sex when i just didn't feel like it or when i was sick or stressed. we have sex when i'm sick, in pain, stressed, etc. all the time, and it doesn't make me feel violated.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 8:37:20 AM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		Why call yourself a slave and control the realtionship based on your moods. Just say you're a sub and feel free to negotiate at will. My best friend is a slave and she thought this was just the silliest question. I don't claim to understand the slave mindset, although talking with her has really helped me ALOT. I have come to believe that if you don't feel as they do you may never understand it completely. I do greatly respect the trust and strength it takes to willingly make that type of committment.

(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 8:41:15 AM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

Why call yourself a slave and control the realtionship based on your moods. Just say you're a sub and feel free to negotiate at will.


i use the words interchangeably, personally. i don't feel free to negotiate at will, period, sub, slave, whatever. i didn't enter the relationship feeling that way, i don't plan on that changing anytime soon. i also think that the feeling of violation we're talking about here is a whole hell of a lot more serious than just not being in the mood. but...jmho.

(in reply to hereyesruponyou)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 8:41:18 AM   
StellaByStarlite


Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		I dunno. Alot of this has to do with hypotheticals, and I'll freely admit hypotheticals aren't my strong suit.

My owner and I are both very new to this, so, I'll say that there are depths and levels to our dynamic we have yet to reach.

It's also nifty to see how other people feel about what exactly constitutes that raped, violated feeling. To me, being pushed beyond my limit sexually wouldn't leave me feeling violated. But being obligated to service him while I'm feverish with a sore throat would.

It's a cool thread. =)
Stella

(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Curious - 3/14/2007 11:31:56 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

Can you rape a (collared, owned) slave? On top of that can a (collared, owned) slave withdraw consent and yet still continue on the relationship? Basically, do you all think a (collared, owned) slave can say "i'm not in the mood" (hence withdrawing consent) and if the slave's Dom continues on it is rape?



We are actually talking about two different things here. Can a slave feel they are raped? And can a slave use the law against a Master if she feels she was raped. The answer to the second question is easy. According to the law of the U.S. rape is nonconsensual, whether the relationship be between strangers, friends, husband & wife, Master & slave. If someone feels they were raped, they have recourse through the legal system.

The philosophical side is where the issue arises. If a slave has given consent to her Master to use her in any way at any time, she has given up the right to say no. Can she still say no? Or, not be in the mood? Absolutely, but very likely at the cost of the relationship as she is breaking the contract that was mutually agreed upon.

So I don't think a slave can withdraw consent and continue on with the relationship, unless the Master is forgiving and willing to renegotiate the rules. Also, it would have to be either one or the other. Either the Master has the right to use the slave at his whim, or he doesn't. There is no sometimes yes, sometimes no. The latter is topping from the bottom.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 40
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