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Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/11/2007 8:26:42 PM   
needdiscipline23


Posts: 106
Joined: 5/14/2005
Status: offline 		On another thread, someone mentioned that if a scene was not negotiated beforehand as including sex, but then went onto sex, with both parties consenting at that point, that they would feel that this bordered on non-consensual, b/c they had not negotiated it to be this way BEFORE they got into the scene, and potentially had their judgment altered or whatnot.

This is something that never occurred to me before, and I'm curious about what others think:

If your scene progresses to a point that was not negotiated, but you do not use a safe word, and in fact, at the time, feel perfectly fine/happy/elated at where the scene is going, would that bother you later? Do you think you would feel violated (as a top or bottom) if you went beyond what was negotiated? Do you feel you can give consent even when in subspace, or the Dom/me equivalent?

I assumed that consent was an ongoing thing--it would not occur to me to be offended at someone going beyond what had been negotiated if I was indicating that I wanted to as well, but perhaps this is again my inexperience talking here, so I'm curious about what y'all think.
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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/11/2007 8:36:18 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		For a lot of people consent isn't possible when they're floating on endorphins or headspace ... I did a scene once, it was purely psychological, very sexy and sensuous ... he was in la la land ... said the next day ... he didn't know where he was ...but it was the only place in the world he wanted to be ... the scene ended when he had a moment of clarity after imaging he would do anything at that moment ... impail himself on a knife if I'd asked it of him ... it freaked him out, that he was so far gone and how readily he went there ...

I play to get people into the head space ... I want them floating ... their at their best soaring ... I don't ever rely on a safeword to revoke consent .. if they utter it ..we listen ... if they don't I watch ... and no I wouldn't sex em if the possibility of sex hadn't being alluded too ...

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/11/2007 8:38:15 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		In general, once you have started fucking with a bottom/submissive/slave/whatever they are sometimes not in a good position to negotiate for a variety of reasons, power/subspace etc.

However, I don't negotiate scenes like that, I tend to say "do  you want to play, yes/no" and go from there.

(in reply to needdiscipline23)
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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/11/2007 11:09:10 PM   
StacyCat


Posts: 112
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hey that was me! :-)  I inspired a thread! :-d

For me, it really depends on the relationship.  I have Tops that I play with that I would flip out if we started a beating scene that turned sexual.  whereas, if we had negotiated sexuality before hand, it wouldnt be that big of a deal.  So, someone new that I am playing with at a play party, I would be mad.  But, in a sexual BDSM relationship, I might expect sexuality to be a part of it, and be comfortable if it took place.

But, you have to realize that subspace is an interesting place.  I have the weirdest thoughts of what I would enjoy while in subspace, and if asked by my top, I would almost always agree to them.  but, that is altered consent.  I wouldnt fuck a guy that was drunk unless he would fuck me while he was sober.

The whole "they didnt use a safeword" takes the blame away from the dominant (where it belongs) and places it on the sub.  "You didnt say that you didnt want to be ass fucked, and you didnt call your safeword, its your fault that it happened."  They may have enjoyed it while out of it, but waking up with a sore ass the next day and remembering little of it, thats grounds for a rape charge.

In short term play type arrangements, I wouldnt go beyond what was specifically negotiated, or what I agreed to as a sub.  In a longer term relationship, there is little negotiation, and more is permitted and tolerated.  Some guy I just met is not fucking me, whereas my Dom might have free reign of that.

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 9:28:13 AM   
needdiscipline23


Posts: 106
Joined: 5/14/2005
Status: offline 		Yep, it was you! i was going to post in that same thread, but felt bad about threadjacking...

Thanks all for your responses! I never considered subspace as being altered consent before, but it completely makes sense!  I'll definitely be keeping this in mind....

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 12:10:37 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Good rule of thumb is to decide everything before hand.  I know a guy who negotiated with a submissive prior to the scene.  Had asked her about sex.
She had said she didn't know...ask during the scene.  Which he did do.

At the time he had asked her about sex all she could respond was yes or no and not very well at that point in time.  She said yes...he got nailed for rape the next day.

How many people want the option of even going to jail for rape...then having to tell the world why you went to jail?  Tell your employer or whoever the case may be?
It is much smarter to work it out before hand.

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 12:32:37 PM   
Cuffkinks


Posts: 1780
Joined: 5/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

Good rule of thumb is to decide everything before hand.  I know a guy who negotiated with a submissive prior to the scene.  Had asked her about sex.
She had said she didn't know...ask during the scene.  Which he did do.

At the time he had asked her about sex all she could respond was yes or no and not very well at that point in time.  She said yes...he got nailed for rape the next day.

How many people want the option of even going to jail for rape...then having to tell the world why you went to jail?  Tell your employer or whoever the case may be?
It is much smarter to work it out before hand.



  Let Me first say that I totally agree with negotiating everything before a scene, but just to play devil's advocate here...
  Supposing everything is negotiated and decided before a scene, including sex. He could still be "nailed" for rape the next day. He'd still have to tell the world why he went to jail, still have to tell his employer or whoever the case may be.
  So what do we do? Have our lawyers draw up contracts?
I can just hear it now..."You've been a bad little girl and you need a spanking. Now have your people contact My people and we'll work out the details."
  As I said...Just playing devil's advocate here.

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 12:35:44 PM   
nyrisa


Posts: 1830
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline 		.

< Message edited by nyrisa -- 2/12/2007 12:39:20 PM >

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 12:54:03 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Let Me first say that I totally agree with negotiating everything before a scene, but just to play devil's advocate here...
Supposing everything is negotiated and decided before a scene, including sex. He could still be "nailed" for rape the next day. He'd still have to tell the world why he went to jail, still have to tell his employer or whoever the case may be.
So what do we do? Have our lawyers draw up contracts?


I'll take the advocacy side that absolutely nothing should be "negotiated". The reference to sex, or the potential for sex, illustrates the intimate nature of acts considered. If you are unsure, or have to "negotiate" how to proceed why not instead use the same time to get to know your potential partner?

Is it the goal of so many to have a "instant scene"? Mix tops with bottoms in equal parts or agreed upon distribution, add 2 paddles, 4 floggers, 1 whips, 6 clamps, chains or ropes per taste. Stir in scene music and enjoy!

Does anyone feel the negotiated recipe method is "safe"? Acknowledging that "all is good" and there is no "right" way; it seems very much a death wish for the consequences that could occur. Prior negotiating is dangerous enough. In scene "re-negotiation" is potentially suicidal.

Would you begin a scene with the concern or potential of one person feeling raped? The mental and emotional state of your potential partner should be exposed at least as much as the partner's skin. Ideally you know more about him/her than her CM profile or IM screen name.

Your; "Now have your people contact My people and we'll work out the details." was more reality than a joke. Because unless you had "people" who heard or witnessed what transpired your next 'intimate' negotiation may be from the closed quarters of a cell.

(in reply to Cuffkinks)
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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 1:03:32 PM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		I think it depends on the relationship and how well you know the person.  I prefer to keep some fluidity in the scene.  It is not all scripted.  So, there is room to do things that were not explicitly negotiated before hand.  I understand that the sub can be flying and regret it afterwards.  But the same can be said for the dominant.  I do, however, believe in personal responsibility and think regret after the fact does not equate to non consent during. 

If playing with someone new or someone I do not know well, I will negotiate everything up front.  The deeper I get into a relationship where there is a better understanding of what is and is not ok while mid scene, the less the sub will know before hand what is coming.

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~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 2:01:46 PM   
taintedgypsy


Posts: 228
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		I find this thread fascinating.

I have only ever played with one Dom and have wondered and feared the experience with annother.

I know I am incapable of using a safe word if I am spacing and that there is probably a good chance while I was spacing that I would go where I would not have wished to before hand, and that I may regret it afterwards. I also have a protection mechanism from my childhood that virtually shuts me down should I cross some lines with pain, almost like a negative spacing.

For this reason I fear sceening if it is someone who is not aquainted with my "quirks" and deeply fear that someone may cross my limits and take my silence or spacing as permission to do so.

I will continue to watch this thread, I find what others have to say very enlightening.

thanks to all and warm smiles

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 2:07:48 PM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		If you know this about yourself, this is something you should communicate clearly to any new play partner so that the other person can make considerations for that.  It may also help to play in public or semi private so there are others who can look after your safety.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 2:41:21 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		I am upfront with all partners that sex is a limit.  So this potential problem doesn't exist for me, but still makes me hesitant to ever play casually. I wouldn't be in the greatest place to re-negotiate or give consent.  I don't know about others, but when I'm in that space, I have little rationality.  Some pretty ridiculous things run through my mind and sometimes come right out of my mouth.  If I gave consent for half of those things to be done to me, I'd be fucked (not literally ) and seriously regret it later.

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 3:32:49 PM   
alandraofMists


Posts: 187
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline 		 
quote:


ORIGINAL: needdiscipline23

This is something that never occurred to me before, and I'm curious about what others think:

If your scene progresses to a point that was not negotiated, but you do not use a safe word, and in fact, at the time, feel perfectly fine/happy/elated at where the scene is going, would that bother you later? Do you think you would feel violated (as a top or bottom) if you went beyond what was negotiated? Do you feel you can give consent even when in subspace, or the Dom/me equivalent?


i have had one play session with a top that has gone past what was discussed prior to the session starting.  at the time that it went into non-negotiated play i did not realize nor understand how it would affect me after the fact.  i did not safe word and at the end of play i felt elated and happy in how i perceived the play had went.

The next day i started to feel shaky and my emotions were in a downward spiral.  i ended up curled up in a chair crying and not understanding  why i was feeling so upset, mad and scared.  After talking to my Lord and Him calming me down, i talked to the Top that had done the play.  That talk did not go well, the top did not take any responsibility for adding a new toy with out negotiation. Everything was blamed on me because i never said no during the play.

i definitely  felt violated and questioned my own ability keep myself safe during play. it came down to a violation of trust... the top violated  the trust that my Lord had her and the trust that i had in her. that was the last time i played with that top. there was not only the fact of what happened in the play but also the lack of responsibility after the fact for the poor choice.

quote:



I assumed that consent was an ongoing thing--it would not occur to me to be offended at someone going beyond what had been negotiated if I was indicating that I wanted to as well, but perhaps this is again my inexperience talking here, so I'm curious about what y'all think.

 
In my opinion it depends on the relationship and what is happening with in the play. For play with my Lord there is no negotiation before or during play.  Play is what He wishes and goes as He directs it... all that He wishes from me is to be free in my responses to His actions.  With other Tops, it would depend on what has been negotiated between my Lord and the other Top. 

Knight's alandra

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 3:44:33 PM   
Squeakers


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline 		     Maybe it's because I am in a committed relationship but we never have negotitated a scene.    I trust him and whatever happens happens

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 3:44:49 PM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		I think that you and your Lord have a right to feel let down.
If you were mine I would be absolutely furious.
I would even contemplate taking my whip to him nonconsensually.
At the very least make sure he knows exactly how I feel and never talk to him again.
I don't want to sound critical but wasn't your Lord there to make sure that the top kept to the negotiated play absolutely?

(in reply to alandraofMists)
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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 3:52:04 PM   
whisperedsighs


Posts: 349
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline 		This is a good reason why NOT to play with people you don't know well enough to know they won't cry rape the next day.  Sad, but true.

In general to the OP.  I don't negotiate all scenes.  I do however have a set of hard limits that I make sure the person is aware of before hand.  If they cross that hard limit I would say it was non-consensual. 

Too many scenarios to give a black and white answer to this thread though.  Great topic!!!

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oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 4:20:42 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1
I think that you and your Lord have a right to feel let down. If you were mine I would be absolutely furious.


lateralist,
Why? Or better yet how could you be furious or upset with the top?

Did you miss this part of the post?
quote:

alandraofMists: i did not safe word and at the end of play I felt elated and happy...


Confronted as the top, I'd point to "safe-word" escape clause for top exemption of responsibility. Prearranged "hard limits"? Just look at how many have posted they are relieved and overjoyed that some tops took them beyond their pre-negotiated limits. In this instance, based upon the information disclosed, "after-care" may not have been given but the scene ended with her; "elated and happy".

Is this an example of the unreliability of safe-words, the transitory nature of pre-scene negotiations, or misplaced trust?

I have never met Knight but I have respect for him and his based upon his posts on CM. I would expect he gave great consideration before permitting this scene to occur. Considering that, this instance reinforces my stance on safe-words and allowing beth to play with people who I don't have a level of intimate, unquestioning trust.

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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 4:31:04 PM   
lilbrattie


Posts: 67
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: taintedgypsy

I find this thread fascinating.

I have only ever played with one Dom and have wondered and feared the experience with annother.

I know I am incapable of using a safe word if I am spacing and that there is probably a good chance while I was spacing that I would go where I would not have wished to before hand, and that I may regret it afterwards. I also have a protection mechanism from my childhood that virtually shuts me down should I cross some lines with pain, almost like a negative spacing.

For this reason I fear sceening if it is someone who is not aquainted with my "quirks" and deeply fear that someone may cross my limits and take my silence or spacing as permission to do so.

I will continue to watch this thread, I find what others have to say very enlightening.

thanks to all and warm smiles


Hi taintedgypsy,

It's nice to hear that i'm not alone in the world... i too have "quirks" that can shut me down at times, and feel the same way about only wishing to play with someone that's aquainted with my "quirks"...

love the topic guys...

~ brattie ~

_____________________________

"Let the world know you as you are, not as you think you should be, because sooner or later, if you are posing, you will forget the pose and then where are you?" Fanny Brice

000-662-847

(in reply to taintedgypsy)
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RE: Negotiating During a Scene? - 2/12/2007 4:57:03 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		For anyone reading this thread who has "quirks" I highly recomend that you pick up a copy of "Consensual Sadomasochism"!
 
It is an excellent book on the mental aspects of BDSM and it is the only place I have found that has a conversation about emotional landmines, and people going into nonverbal states due to them. 

(in reply to lilbrattie)
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