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How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 5:52:15 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

....how can a Dom claim to be a strict Dom, if his rules are not enforced....?

interesting question... and I ask the following...

and how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

So what do you think.. I have own thoughts.. but maybe you can share yours too..

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

Post #: 1

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:07:11 AM

lateralist1

Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

Exactly Knight of Mists. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
The gaols are full of people who can't keep to the rules.
Ok the occassional toe over the line is good fun it allows me to discipline very harshly which of course I love.
But the only thing that a Dom/me can do in the end is to dismiss a sub/slave who just can't do as he/she is told.
Maybe that's why the BDSM world is full of subs and slaves who can't find a Mistress/Master and lots of Dom/mes who can't find an acceptable sub/slave.
I am a very laid back person I am far less of a control freak than a lot of vanilla people but there are limits to my patience.
I know it takes time to control someone completely.
I know I have to do a lot of work.
But a sub/slave can not expect to get away with being a lazy insolent sod.
Why on earth would I want to waste my time on someone like that?

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 2

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:09:21 AM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

to me, strict implies that there -are- a lot of rules. my dominant isn't necessarily strict, imho, because he doesn't choose to have a lot of rules. i think the idea of "enforcing" rules is silly, if you have an obedient submissive, and if you don't have an obedient submissive, then no amount of forcing will probably change what's wrong with the situation in the long term.

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 3

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:13:01 AM

unsung

Posts: 183
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline

imo, i think if a sub is to question why a dom does not follow through, is he/she bating their dom for punishment. I would gather punishment is not something any person would want, if it is then perhaps there is not a clear enough line between play and punishment. I would half harazard a guess that in fact lines are not drawn, and if one is crossing them to recieve punishment then there is lack of obedience regardless of why a person might push a dom in such manner; if for attention, cause they like pain, whatever. There are other ways to achieve these without crossing the line (unless of course the line has not been drawn)

< Message edited by unsung -- 1/28/2007 6:15:07 AM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 4

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:25:19 AM

dawntreader

Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

....how can a Dom claim to be a strict Dom, if his rules are not enforced....?

interesting question... and I ask the following...

and how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

So what do you think.. I have own thoughts.. but maybe you can share yours too..

my thoughts are she cannot claim to be an obedient sub. A sub maybe, but not obedient. i personally am amused by some of the threads and posts on questioning obedience here. While i can personally relate to an unintentional infraction and the resulting "lesson" i was given, i can not relate to purposeful disobedience or the testing of a Dominant and His rules. It might be because i have no tolerance for brat behavior either because i see it as manipulative and self focused. i think sometimes rules might need to be discussed if there seems to be a problem with compliance but otherwise, if i agree to rules, i follow them..anything else is disrespectful to the Dom and loss of character in myself.

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 5

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:31:42 AM

newsubseeking61

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

to me, strict implies that there -are- a lot of rules. my dominant isn't necessarily strict, imho, because he doesn't choose to have a lot of rules. i think the idea of "enforcing" rules is silly, if you have an obedient submissive, and if you don't have an obedient submissive, then no amount of forcing will probably change what's wrong with the situation in the long term.

Perhaps,

But I think that a Master can be strict and have only one rule...if the expectation presented is: that one specific rule MUST BE obeyed. ...... Sortof a quality versus quantity dynamic.

Is it really the responsibility of the Master enforce the rules if He/She has stated the expectations? I think not. If expectations are clear, the responsibility of obedience falls to the submissive. If the submissive fails to obey out of ignorance/naivte or misunderstanding, corrective clarity is required. However, if the submissive intentionally disobeys....then something is wrong with this picture. That sort of disobedience does not make the Master any less strict. It just reveals the insolence of the submissive.

jmt
best!

jessica

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 6

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:33:29 AM

smilezz

Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline

Good morning everyone,

I have had this conversation over the years with others. It boils down to complete obedience. You obey, or you don't. Do we fall at times? heaven's yes, and we learn.

I can only speak for me on this. In Thorns' house He has specific things that He wants/needs. He also has not been here for the last 8 1/2 months, nor will He be here for the next 12. Now some would say: Ooooooo! time for me! time to let things go a bit and do them later.
I need direction......i need focus.....i need His hand/words upon me. He may not be here, but He still provides all of this for me. I keep His house in order, i keep His property in order.....just because He is not present at the time does not mean it's a slave free_for_all. I make sure that i am always in Master's favor and if He was here would He approve?

Just because a said Dominant does not enforce his punishment (perhaps: at THAT specific time....remember that, those Dominants have a knack for keeping notes in their heads to pull out at a moments notice) does not in any way mean that it's "lets see what i can get away with, because he is not going to punish me" day.

I believe in constant communication.......if there are "any" type of issues, they need to be presented.

Ok, i need more coffee *chucklez*

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 7

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:39:17 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

Absolutely beautiful new picture...at least I haven't seen it before.

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 8

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:40:33 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

In my house it goes like this:

I have this or that rule or way that things are to be done; whatever:
slave says:
Я повинуюсь

Any other outcome or response will have unexpected results for the slave. That is a guarentee.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 9

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:44:29 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

I'm reading these responses and can not help but grow more and more grateful for my own Master's way of training me. He found me as a lost soul with lots of issues. I was not a brat. I did not blatantly disobey (well not often). But I required lots of correction. At the same time, he could see my desperate desire and need to obey him and get it right. He could see me come down harder on myself than was necessary every time I failed to meet an expectation.

Thankfully, my Master does not expect his girl to be perfect. He is strict, and was strict even in my training. He felt it his obligation to teach a girl via the means that worked best for her, if she was under his care. His expectations are high, and he did not expect me to get it right simply because he said so. Thoughts, feelings and behaviors needed modification. Sometimes that modification was realized by talking, and other times by whipping. I needed that. He needs to rule like that. Thank God he did not toss me to the curb all those times I thought he should have, and instead saw what potential I had and brought it out of me. Thank God he chose to put the work into me that he did, and had the faith in me that he did. Then again, my Master will put that effort into one he feels deserves it, because he understands it can take great effort for the slave to learn what he requires her to learn. He just wants to see her putting for the effort, too.

To answer the OP, the sub can claim to strive for obedience, but to fail sometimes, as humans do. I would say for the most part I'm obediant. But I've learned that speaking in absolutes is a poor way to communicate.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 10

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:44:46 AM

MsKatHouston

Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

I see it both ways. I don't think a dom can call himself strict if in his mind he has all these very stringent rules but continually and completely ignores any misstep. How is that strict? OK, you have all these rules but they can either be carried out or not depending on the submissive's whim? If a dominant does not like to "punish" a slave and just chalks up in his mind the disobedience until it gets to a point where there is no longer a compatibility and the relationship ends, then I would say that is a strict dom. Perhaps there is no immediate result but there will be an eventual one if his way is not followed.

An obedient sub who does not obey? Hmmm. No.

But in a relationship there are all sorts of trials and errors and things that go on between two people. Strict dom or obedient sub may have an off day. Maybe they made a mistake. I think the yardstick to measure strict and obedient is what occurs over the course of time, not with just individual acts. There is also a lot to be said for "eye of the beholder". While me looking into another relationship I may have opinions based on what I see, I also recognize what is important is how the people IN the relationship feel about it.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 11

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 6:47:25 AM

smilezz

Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline

Why thank you kindly. I figured it was time to update a few.

Enjoy your day,

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 12

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 7:10:07 AM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

....how can a Dom claim to be a strict Dom, if his rules are not enforced....?

interesting question...

To be honest, anyone can claim to be anything they like... it doesn't mean that anyone else will perceive it the same way.

However, if a dom has reasonable expectations that his sub has no objection to or problem obeying, then he need not "enforce" them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

and I ask the following...

and how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

As with the dom, a sub can claim whatever they like.

However, if said strict dom expected his sub to use her brain to determine when and if following his rules would be appropriate in any given situtuation, then the sub could claim obedience even if she decided against following them.

_____________________________

Just because it isn't "all about me", doesn't make it "all about you".

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 13

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 7:24:49 AM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

I figured these pairings were made from compatible kinks -- a micromanager dom who enjoys enforcing rules matched with a space cadet sub who enjoys having someone make her toe a tight line. Not my cuppa tea, but I can see how some folks might like that.

So I don't think it has to be a matter of disobedience for a sub to want or need that discipline, though that's probably the case sometimes too. But I'm just guessing because I'm not interested in strictness or micromanaging myself..

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 14

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 7:33:55 AM

MaryT

Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

I can't relate to wanting to be punished for failing. For me, self-admitted praise slut, I want approval. That's what D/s is about for me.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 15

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 7:36:25 AM

Sunshine119

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

In my house it goes like this:

I have this or that rule or way that things are to be done; whatever:
slave says:
Я повинуюсь

Any other outcome or response will have unexpected results for the slave. That is a guarentee.

Ron

So, Ron,

You are going out and you tell me to stay seated in a certain position until you arrive back home. But, in the meantime, something catastrophic happens. Я иду к дому соседа вызвать пожарное управление.

I hope the unexpected outcome for your slave would be to shower her with hugs and kisses!

Sunshine

_____________________________

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 16

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 7:40:38 AM

Hissltviolet

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

....how can a Dom claim to be a strict Dom, if his rules are not enforced....?

interesting question... and I ask the following...

and how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

So what do you think.. I have own thoughts.. but maybe you can share yours too..

<smiles>...this slave's Master is as 'strict' as They come...His expectations well established...protocols clearly defined...which this girl is grateful for since 'punishment' is not a favored thing with her...but...she is never punished for mistakes or even 'disobedience'...something she never does intentionally...
but it will happen if there should be a miscommunication (usually a lack of complete understanding on her part)...she will be disciplined with reenforcement...but true punishment is reserved for 'outbursts'...usually sparked by frustration or childishness in the slave (less common issues as she grows in her condition of surrender)...but...even then...Master looks for the 'problem' that ignited the nagative behavior and deals with it accordingly...

she thinks that the 'worse' punishment she suffers is that which she inflicts upon herself when she disappoints Master...and even that...He attempts to 'exercise' from her since it is not her 'place' to punish herself and it only distracts her from His influence over the issue...

IHO...and based on personal experience...she thinks subs/slaves get in the habit of seeking 'validation' through how the Master approaches issues...
positively or nagatively...that does not make it 'wrong' it just indicates more 'growth' needs to be accomplished...whether growth in the Master...the sub/slave...or simply in the relationship between the T/two...

again...just her personal opinion...

_____________________________

ETERNALLY/INFERNALLY
Lord Bear's violet
(SLRN) 876-742-285
~**~
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(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 17

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 7:45:41 AM

newsubseeking61

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

I can't relate to wanting to be punished for failing. For me, self-admitted praise slut, I want approval. That's what D/s is about for me.

loudly says: "EXACTLY!!!"

best!

(in reply to MaryT)

Post #: 18

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 7:56:31 AM

Sunshine119

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

and how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

So what do you think.. I have own thoughts.. but maybe you can share yours too..

Being the free spirit I have been since the sixties, I value much over mere obedience. So? Maybe it's a good thing I didn't choose a "strict" Dom. While I'll be the first one to do exactly as I'm told, without question, I'm also the one who will stop to contemplate an order that is in direct conflict with my own ethical system. I also value common sense in many things over orders. Some may be life and death concerns, some may have far less importance.

I have heard from some submissives that they were incapable of taking action during crises because their Dom had not told them the action they should take. Unless this is exactly the outcome that both the Dom and submissive desire, I feel this is a shame. What makes us human is that we can think, contemplate and take action upon those considerations.

Now.....as to my occassional disobedience? The stuff that doesn't boil down to the serious stuff above? Hmmm.....am I PMSing? Have I had my pot of coffee yet? Are there problems with my work or my family? Is He asking something with which my old body can no longer comply (and I'm in good shape)? We are human beings before we are submissives.

Now....Smilezz, where is that coffee? Oh, yeah, I agree: GREAT new pictures!

Sunshine

_____________________________

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 19

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 7:59:57 AM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear KnightofMists, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I do agree with your open question, how can a slave/submissive claim to be 'obedient' if he/she will not follow the rules, established by a strict Dominant.

By the face value of such a question in logic, it is fairly clear that it is self evident, that being obedient and within the rules established--she/he may be deemed a quality slave.

Then there comes to terms of what "strict" means; to which it is similar to the "true" this or that. Unfortunately, the measures of what is strict and or true are subjected to individual's 'measuring stick.' Each individual identifying as Master, Mistress, Dominant, TOP have in their mind's eyes that stick to measure against. The slave/submissive and or servant is taught to see through another's (Dominant's) eyes.

As for my own personal tastes, I prefer high protocol in public venues that are BDSM friendly and at home a different variety of levels of protocol, which are more practical for every day life. Each are to be used accordingly and the only exceptions are if they're physically unable to do it, however; they're given optional positions and or functions to accomidate their state of physical abilities.

That said, I really do feel that the 'spirit of intent' by the slave and or submissive governs my response. If its willful as to manipulate and or control me, I don't consider it as conduct becoming of a slave/submissive. These slaves of mine will know ahead of time, the protocol steps to get what they need/want by my rules--not theirs.
When they use their 'rules'--I will not cooperate, I don't forget and they need to remember my coined phrase--"expect the unexpected."

Honest mistakes will be noted. I'll work with any slave patiently so, as to get things down into a second nature response. Communication is key in all respects, through establishing a common language and to achieve common goals.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 20

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