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RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 8:38:27 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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You now see the issue clearly, it would be so. She has in fact obeyed. All this other shit is what is going to roil the water, if you want a fuckin' beating just ask for it....this testing and petulant and infantile behavior leads to: well, I will fuck up big no reason, he notices, he punishes, I will not capitalize the word master in my mind when I talk to him, oh, he didn't notice---gee what does that mean? Finally it comes to the point where you are going to get heaved out the door, well, you ain't much of a master, I don't care what I said, you should have caught on by the way I tilted my head slightly to the left--or I told you clearly many times that I was fucking your best friend, many times by running the toilet paper backwards----Fuck that. That's the shit I am talking about. Knowing what the will is.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/28/2007 8:39:25 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Sunshine119)

Post #: 21

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 8:53:15 AM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
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This conversation is why I hate labels.

When a woman seeks someone "strict" we need to know why. There are many who see that as code for "Gee, this man might finally be able to MAKE me obey" which is the lie she tells herself to hide one of two common things. The whole BS line about "I haven't met a man who can control me, therefore all men are shit and I am better" and she NEVER really wants to be controlled as always finding men wanting is what her real need is. OR, the "my life is a drama filled mess and a real man could fix all that" setting up both for failure when her patterns create drama and the whole house of cards falls apart.

One could be "strict" and be in a vanilla marriage and the only rule is don't fuck anyone else and if you do I am leaving. One strict rule.

Some dominants are "strict" because they think that by controlling everything, they can prevent anything bad from happening. Good luck.

Some dominants are "strict" because it gives them an excuse to punish by setting unmeetable standards, this is the inverse of the "no man has been able to control me" path to positive self image.

I think for many, being "strict" becomes a stand in for showing emotion and is how they connect to another. I couldn't stand it but it clearly works for some.

Before anyone goes whining about how their strict whatever is great, I am not attacking the label, rules, or anyone. I am simply laying out what I see in many (which implies there are exceptions) of those seeking or advertising being strict.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 22

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 8:53:48 AM

cloudboy

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Joined: 12/14/2005
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All "claims" give rise to imperfections. What's more startling to me are people who end up surprised by imperfections.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 23

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 9:24:26 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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I think we're overextended a single statement into a whole host of judgements and generalizations that are too far-fetched for me.

We're even having people say "sub not slave"? Slaves can and do disobey, they have sucky days sometimes, it doesn't necessarily mean the demise of all that is holy in the relationship.

I think we need to calm down. Strict doms can have sucky days where they don't care, or forget, or get too tired. Obedient slaves can have sucky days where they get overdrawn, frustrated, confused, and just plain ornery.

That doesn't take away from them being strict or obedient- it just means they had a bad day. I think the blaming one or the other is the serious issue here- relationships need people to work together, on ALL sides. Saying it's all up to the sub to obey is as wrong as saying it's all up to the dom to enforce.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 24

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 9:27:17 AM

bandit25

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Joined: 6/18/2005
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Finally, a voice of reason. Calm down indeed. Everyone has a bad day now and then. Learn to deal people.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 25

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 9:27:26 AM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

All "claims" give rise to imperfections. What's more startling to me are people who end up surprised by imperfections.

Add me to that startled list, please.

Adding a reason to Michael's reasons for a girl wanting a "strict" Master - She is new in her submission and unsure of her footing, and finds such strictness as a way of reassuring her what her boundaries are. She finds comfort in knowing those fences are there, and while she is still learning, every once in awhile she subconsciously reaches out to be sure are are still there, firmly in place.

But gee, let's all label her a disobediant brat, stomping her feet for attention, and throw her out. I guess that's easier than developing her. (flippant comment addressed to nobody in particular)

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 26

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 9:29:22 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Saying it's all up to the sub to obey is as wrong as saying it's all up to the dom to enforce.

What a wonderful concept.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 27

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 9:33:52 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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No wonder we get so many neurotic subs who are afraid to be anything less than perfect.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 28

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 9:45:22 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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HELLO!

That's exactly it, isn't it?? I mean, the safety police will be sure come round that corner with lights and sirens blazing to protect the newbies, but God forbid someone new starts making mistakes. Yeehaw - let's get 'em!!

Had I read some of these current threads when I was new, I would have labeled myself a complete failure as a submissive (actually, I had done that right before my Master found me, for this very reason). In fact, I was just having a conversation with my Master the other night about all the things I was "advised" when I first began submitting to him. Had I listened to such great advice I would not be where I am today. Experience and wisdom comes with time, mistakes, frustrations, pain, tears, joy & laughter, observation, and experimenting.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 29

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 9:56:05 AM

MzMia

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Joined: 7/30/2004
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Great question Knight, but have you not noticed that
people can claim or be anything these days?
If the submissive routinely does not follow orders,
and the Dom or Domina does not enforce the rules or
discipline IMHO they are enjoying "kinky" fun and
basically playing games.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 30

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 9:59:54 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Don't forget that what's "strict" to one person isn't always to another. More communication needs to happen to define what strict means to both people.

Master Fire

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The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 31

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 10:08:51 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

Well....

One of the real reasons, the one most people conveniently leave out for why one sect in the BDSM world says one thing then act or does another is this:

Selfish Hedonistic Pleasure is a one way street.

So that is one reason and another, as was mentioned in an earlier thread is, "the One or one"

needs to be the fantasized ideal of perfection and be exclusively committed to theirs partners particular needs and fetishes from day one.. Nothing short of that will do.

I think we often forget, that for the overwhelming majority, (Even though many in that majority will refute and deny it.) this, BDSM, D/s, M/s, T/b, DD, HoH, S&M (and all the other initials I have overlooked) thing is about fantasy and escape. When a person fantasizes, they do not include the human shortcomings of the person, nor the possible naturals compromises for certain events we would have to consider in the real world, in their fantasy. Fantasies are idealized dreams and hopes and by their very nature, perfect. Then, in a place like this, people come in and tell their own stories about how they have met "the one" and that they held out for exactly who and what they wanted and didn't compromise or settle, not even one iota. And so, sub(whoever) and Dom(What its) bemoan the fact that others are getting theirs and finding perfection, why can't they? For human nature, it comes down to free markets believe it or not. The laws of supply and demand, even here dictate who gets what they want and sometime literally, how much they will have to (in one way or another) "pay" for it.

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 1/28/2007 10:16:05 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 32

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 10:53:12 AM

dawntreader

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Joined: 11/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

interesting question... and I ask the following...

and how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

i think it goes back to a sub "claiming" to be obedient if she does not follow the rules...
At least this is how i am reading it. Not that someone else is judging her but a claim she is making herself. Seems simple enough to me - one is either obedient or not; whether obedience is a good thing or not, whether there are valid reasons for not being obedient is not the question. If the question cannot be answered for a sub, then it can't be answered for a Dom. There is alot of gray area...but if you say you are something and you are not, then you are not honest - and that is a whole other can of worms!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 33

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 11:36:40 AM

griffn

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Joined: 1/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

....how can a Dom claim to be a strict Dom, if his rules are not enforced....?

interesting question... and I ask the following...

and how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

So what do you think.. I have own thoughts.. but maybe you can share yours too..

I personaly believe that it would fall under they are my rules to change and yours to follow "strictly speaking". That would be if the Dom or sub wasnt getting lazy. I think we all have our down times so to speak.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 34

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 12:02:49 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

....how can a Dom claim to be a strict Dom, if his rules are not enforced....?

interesting question... and I ask the following...

and how can a sub claim to be an obedient sub if she doesn't follow the rules established by the strict Dom?

So what do you think.. I have own thoughts.. but maybe you can share yours too..

I wanted to make sure I stated this right off the bat: I am only talking about me, my own relationships, my own history, my own submission.

My first Ds centered relationship left me fairly crushed, he did not even claim to be strict, but he could be very cruel in gaining my compliance for things I had not even negotiated away. It was a punishing enforcing type of relationship, until I told him straight up I would not comply with orders I had not consented to comply with, I was ready for the repercussions of the ending of our dynamic by doing this, as I knew it would. I could not be submissive to him.

Fast forward, months later I am looking for a new relationship. Every dom that emails me with the word "strict" or "punishment" in his profile got automatically discounted by me. I even started a thread about this issue at one time because I did not even understand what the word "strict" meant, what were these doms trying to convey anyways? I was confused by it, and because of my history, I was not in the mood to try to figure it out.

I intentionally looked for the type of dynamic I now enjoy. He can be extremely firm with me, but so far I cannot think of anytime I needed an enforcer. He has told me to do things I did not necessarily want to do, and I did them. Perhaps I am just obedient, but I was not obedient the last time. Perhaps it is because I consented to all that he demands of me, you see consent is extremely important to me. If I consent to something, I will move heaven and hell to comply, it is my nature.

And in reflection, I feel I was almost set up to fail in the obedience department in my last relationship. You see I DO think that disobedience is a failure of sorts for BOTH dom and sub. When talking about this failure with either side of the dynamic, I tend to concentrate on their end of the failure. If a dom asks why his sub is disobedient, I would tend to focus on their part, vice versa with the sub. Both have a part in it, expectations and consent apply to both sides.

This is just my view.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 35

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 12:29:28 PM

LadyOunce

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Joined: 10/18/2006
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It really sounds to be back to the age old debate about how much can you truly "force" a submissive to do anything. If they aren't obeying, submitting, then there is likely an ulterior motite. Sadly, more often than not, it's an attempt to receive the punishment of the rules being enforced.

It's a circle of a clusterfuck that seems amazingly more codependant than it does Ds.

_____________________________

Above all, be true to yourself, and if you cannot put your heart in it, take yourself out of it. -Jackson

Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts. -Einstein

Do not consider painful what is good for you. -Medea

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 36

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 1:30:49 PM

Celeste43

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From: NYS
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Sometimes strict doms are actually rigid and unbending. Without any understanding of what is workable in the sub's life. Demanding she wear short skirt, no panties and high heels and full makeup at all times will eventually be broken. You don't chaperone school hiking trips in that get-up. A dom who won't change his rules to allow the sub to do well in her job and her home life is one who won't be able to enforce his rules.

Does the sub in this possible scenario qualify as obedient? Not to him, but to a more reasonable man who wants her to do well in her life and makes sensible rules she will be. Two sides to every story.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 37

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 1:31:57 PM

mnottertail

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Well you throw some gas on them and strike a match, turns out they will lighten up a bit and see the world in a different light.....

anyone remember the catholic shit right where captain kangaroo should have been on sunday?

And if everyone lit;
just one little candle;
what a bright world;
this would be............

Father Time

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to LadyOunce)

Post #: 38

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 1:59:09 PM

MasterWolfen

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In reply; I feel that the slave should wear whatever is appropriate for the hiking trip or at work .. However if she is at work and wearing slacks, she should have with her in her car, a skirt, stockings, garterbelt, and high heels, in a small suitcase so that if I was to call her and tell her that I was coming by after she got off work and take her somewhere (dining etc).. that she could be dressed the way I wish her to dress when she is with Me ... The exception to this is if W/we are working back in the woods above My house or clearing and working in the backyard, she could wear jeans or shorts ..

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 39

RE: How can they claim to be.... - 1/28/2007 2:26:27 PM

MasterWolfen

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Joined: 6/4/2005
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In reply to the main question, these are My feelings.. 1.. A Master or Dom can be strict But He must be fair, considerate, and understanding.. There is a big difference between Dominating and being domineering ! .. 2.. The submissive or slave needs structure in her life so that she feels content and knows that her Master/Dom cares for her and that her life is secure.. she should obey all reasonable rules ( these rules need to be addressed and discussed at the beginning of the relationship .. new rules can be added as the relationship progresses {after discussion}..) .. 3.. In establishing rules, fairness and respect should always be considered.. The rules need to be written down and available for both parties to review at any time .. To establish unreasonable or un-attainable rules is Not fair and can develop a feeling of insecurity and also poor self-image and low self-worth... This is not good for submissives or slaves... 4.. The Master or Dom walks a fine line between being in control and being a control freak... the latter is definately bad...
The Master or Dom must dominate with strength and fairness and Not be domineering and He must be in quiet strong control and Not be a control freak.
And to think that some people think that it is easy to be a Master or Dom

!! Not so !!
Many think that all you have to do is pick up a whip and have-at-it !

(in reply to MasterWolfen)

Post #: 40

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