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RE: Humiliation - 12/7/2006 8:36:34 PM   
Lordandmaster


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If I pull out the heavy artillery and really do a bang-up job of it, you're going to melt and then get sub drop and I just can't be responsible for people's emotional health on the other side of the nation!

quote:

ORIGINAL: whisperedsighs

ummmm no

can you do it again?

(in reply to whisperedsighs)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/7/2006 8:50:09 PM   
jayceecamp


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i am big fan of being humiliated.  In fact, it is at the root of my submission.  It is not the sting of the paddle on my ass that hurts, it is the sting of the humiliation incurred by willingly prostrating myself before the Mistress and accepting Her abuse.  But why do i enjoy this?  i feel as though it is just another part of my will that is being surrendered to Her.  In no other walks of my life can anyone get away with humiliating me.  Society would not allow me to let them get away with it, and i would not want them to.  But in SubSpace, the "right" of not being humiliated is surrendered to the Mistress as part of my submission.  Just as the right to so other things that i may like to do is also surrendered. 

i  may not actaully like being humilaited, but i do like the feeling of surrendering myself so fully that i have no choice but to accept it.  Mistress' humiliation tests my submission, and i thrive on knowing that i can accept it.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/7/2006 8:56:41 PM   
NaiveTempest


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From: North Carolina
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I wonder at humiliation myself, especially after reading these posts. I know at this point I would probably feel extremely hurt and upset if someone took past pains or something I'm really sensitive about and threw them in my face. But I don't mind being called a slut, freak, etc... during sex play or having a few of my limits gently pushed. So maybe one day, with the right Dom, I will be able to listen to him throw one of those painful memories or weaknesses at me and maybe it will actually help me to heal and grow strong.

(in reply to jayceecamp)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/7/2006 8:58:58 PM   
darksdesire


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ownedgurlie;

i understand just what you mean, and you said it.beautifully:  "it's lke i stand up on the mountain top and face and conquer my old demons."  (i don't know how to do that damn cut and paste thing everyone does to quote someone!)  Anyway, i feel the same - when you face those demons with the person you most trust and love in the world, they turn into itty bitty wisps that suddenly lose their meaning. 

(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/7/2006 10:49:25 PM   
MasterNdorei


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Humiliation makes me lose any form of ego i might have about an issue. Master removing this helps me overcome whatever it is that has made me fearful. It is part of O/our dynamic that is empowering for me.

Master's dorei

(in reply to darksdesire)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/7/2006 11:15:51 PM   
charlotte12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darksdesire


But, one thing i do know...When he uses humiliation in such a way that is very specific to me, i feel loved.  Perhaps it is because in those moments, i am the most exposed to him, and even as he humiliates, i am fully aware that he loves me.  It is as though he is playing with the most shameful parts of me, he is actually delighting in them, and loving and accepting them.  It's a paradox.  What should hurt becomes transformed into something that seems more healing.  What is shameful becomes exposed to the light and is accepted and loved, and becomes a source of pride.  Allowing him to see this part of me requires a profound trust that has taken a long time to achieve.  




I have not had this experience fully as of yet but i have never heard it described in a way i can relate to so well. I am terrified of being humiliated in public..i do everything i can to avoid it.....but when i seek it with a partner i think it might be to have those feelings accepted. I want to let myself feel that feeling that i fear so much because ultimatly i know it is a part of me and denying it only makes it more scary but experiencing it begins to loosen it's power over me and to share this with someone i trust is something i truly look forward to. when i feel humiliated i feel very alone..if i were to share it with someone ...well i dont know.....but i think it would be extremely...i can't find the right word...so i'll stop here. thanks to the OP for getting us thinking
~"charlotte"

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RE: Humiliation - 12/7/2006 11:43:25 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darksdesire

What is shameful becomes exposed to the light and is accepted and loved, and becomes a source of pride.  Allowing him to see this part of me requires a profound trust that has taken a long time to achieve.  



I don't know how I missed this before.  This is so right on for me in so many ways.

(in reply to darksdesire)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 2:14:21 AM   
SusanofO


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I will think more on this question - because this isn't an answer (below) that hones in enough (for me) on what makes this activity preference different for me than some others, and since it is a favorite of mine, there must be something about it that (to me) makes it extra special..and I feel this answer needs more work.
But - here's what I can tell you so far...

There's something about it that feels extra-intimate to me and makes me feel ultra-controlled, and (sometimes also) extra-safe. It really brings home to me, and usually kicks into over-drive - that need I seem to have to feel I am pleasing someone in a way that really matters to them (which is already very present in me, I think).

I have not usually felt another person was ever just doing it to make fun of me, or get their kicks solely at my expense or anything like that. 

But - (and I cannot empahasize this enough) - it has to be the "right kind" of humiliation.

I do differentiate between humiliation and degradation - and I think this is one "kink" where that line is very differentiated between people (as it always is, of course, but I feel it really, really is within this particular activity preference).

It can't be ham-handed or over-done right off the bat. But I like it when it intensifies (usually). Don't mean to sound topping-from-the bottomy or anything, but it really is something I need to "work up to" in a scene, in steps re: Actions requested of me that are increasingly intense (or else things that just stay at the same "level" of intensity). Whether this takes 10 minutes, all day or night, or several weeks, depends on the activity in question. 

Things I know I'd not appreciate: Someone screaming (or even saying) things they hated about me as a person, or making fun of me in front of other people. Slight or moderate condescension is okay, but not blunt, direct, hateful comments (I realize this is all subjective, but I know it when I feel it, and know if it feels great - or not.

Someone tried this on me once (very blatant public embarrassment of me, verbally) in what I felt was a pretty severe way (and I like humiliation and am not a shrinking violet type, normally) , and believe me, I may be a submissive, but I can "give as good as I get" in this area, if I feel I need to "defend myself".

Private humilation is always something I know I'd I like better than anything public - Except -

When it comes to - Exhibitionism and things like "foot service" and being ordered to do things for someone else in an "obedience training" mode for someone, and then being verbally graded (hopefully favorably) on my "performance" re: Whatever the activity was: Serving snacks, serving something else, or something more "sinister", perhaps.

I've fantasized about a lot of things I may not ever do (or maybe I would someday, who ever knows?) Pony play scenarios where I'm used by potential "buyers" at an auction, etc.- although that would certainly require extensive pre-discussion as I am unsure I am emotionally able to handle some thngs I fantasize about). Humiliation requires so much trust (for me) in someone slese, though - that if we are both involved in a scene and it works well, it makes me feel much more emotionally  bonded to them. 

I appreciate much lighter-level forms of it as well (someone saying "good girl" in the right context, might be seen as humiliating by some people) - which brings me to wondering...

What actually I'd classify under the heading -Damagingly Humiliating. I am not altogether sure of that. I need to think about it more. I really don't have a huge ego, so, usually, if I don't want to "feel humiliated" by something, I usually just kind of talk myself out of feeling that way (if that makes any sense). I try to act like it just never happenend at all. Of course, the better someone knows you, the more they know your "soft, weak underbelly".

If it is not done with care and concern for me, I can end up feeling very, very betrayed and hurt like almost nothing else could hurt me (even something physical, I'd bet). But - I really like humiliation as a bdsm activity. It feels so....personal. To do it well, I feel someone has to have bothered to get to know me, (but that's an opinion, I realize, that is not necessarily everyone's). 

But usually, it's made me feel safe and warm and ultra-controlled and like I am getting a really good bit of personal attention from someone, and have "gone the extra mile" to please them. I love those feelings. They make me want to please someone soooo much (and I love it when they let me know I've done just that, it'a so encouraging)! Like the other person is really protective of me and also that they truly do have my psychological welfare in their hands (and can do whatever they want with it).  

There are quite a few things I'd cl;assigy under the "Humiliation Big-Top" in general (for me). But how humuliating they are depends on the particular context. 
To me, sometimes "obedience trainiing" and "begging" are things I'd classify as humiliating, even though they are listed as separate activities on the CM Interest Lists.

I tend to devolve (or evolve?) into not using whole sentences in a scene, just breathing the word "please, oh please" over and over in a low, pleading, sweet (hopefully) tone of voice. I seem to use that word please a Lot, more than almost any other, I think. I am not sure why, it just make s me feel gooood.

- Susan  

I could also like it because I was humiliated as a child a slight bit in my family (but that was soooo long ago, and so infrequent I'd not classify it as parental abuse at all I'm not "holding it against" my mother because she really didn't do anything out of the ordibnary as far as parenting is concerned -(I'd know if she had, because I do volunteer work with abused kids).

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/8/2006 3:13:47 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to LotusSong)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 2:50:51 AM   
eyesopened


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when i first became active in BDSM i didn't understand humiliation but i now understand it more as "humbling"  to cause me to feel humble.  This is something i need, it helps me see the Dom as larger than i am, stronger than i am and it is necessary for me.  i was raised in a situation that required i be the strong one, the responsible one, and therefore it's difficult for me to find someone i can recognize as being stronger than me, not just in a physical sense.  For me it is a lot like why i enjoy bondage so much, it feels more like being swaddled, a safe and secure place to be held.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 6:01:12 AM   
SusanofO


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I know personal preferences are, well, personal, but - I always find myself wondering why Humiliation can get such a bad rap as a kink? I'm glad you asked the question. I'm not out to convert anyone, but it is curious (to me). I think it's sometimes "misunderstood" (poor, poor Humilation. There, there. It'll be okay, really...). I know you are just curious about it and am glad you ask this question.

I guess the answer is that it doesn't really make me feel humiliated in a terribly uncomfortable way - it makes me feel more accepted (as someone indicated earlier). Like the other person knows me in all the ways they could, almost, the good and especially the "bad and embarrassing" parts, and they still care about me. That (to me) feels good. 
 
*Sidenote: I really prefer it if the other person makes sure I understand that I pleased them, and may need to reassure me I am important to them and they do still really care about me, if it has been an extra-humiliating scene Read: "edgy". I'd definitely consider this part of "aftercare".

I do differentiate it from Degradation. Degradation is (to me) more selfish in its motives, callous, more "hard-core", and possibly coming from a seriously "dysfunctional place" (but I don't want to have a conversation here about what I think might be "dysfunctional"  - especially on a bdsm website, hehe. For the record, I consider myself to be a basically a non-judgmental person, but feel a right to have personal kink preferences, as everyone does, of course. And where some of them may have come from is anybody's guess (really). I still don't understand it very well, really. I don't. But to me, Degradation equals not caring for another person's state of mind, or how one may be damaging their "psyche"  in a long-term way.

And also the line between the two is very subjective, I realize.
I know there are people who don't differentiate between these two "layers" because they "like all of it" no matter how "hard-core" it ever gets.

Again, I can't judge this (and I care not what other people want to do), but think there is a definite difference between these two things (for me anyway).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/8/2006 6:47:23 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to eyesopened)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 6:55:44 AM   
toservez


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In this whole area things said and done to me I have never had a problem with letting them go. To me any of this stuff is just like any other of the things done that show the actual power exchange between me and my Master which is always very important to me. I take great pleasure in seeing my Master use and enjoy the power exchange in this area and have found that since there is no chance of physical harm and does not affect me mentally it really allows the people who have owned me to really let go as well.

This thread has really gotten me to think why I enjoy it so much and what LA said in her first post was dead on for me. There is a very strong relaxing and slowing of the brain to it. I also think this type of play many times can be quite spontaneous and done more conveniently and often then pain and bondage play. Also, honestly I am pretty sure that there is an element of hubris as well because I take too much pride in able to do things in this element that many have issues and limits in and makes me feel special or more devoted to my Master which is clearly a false feeling but it works for me.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 7:35:49 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I know personal preferences are, well, personal, but - I always find myself wondering why Humiliation can get such a bad rap as a kink? I'm glad you asked the question. I'm not out to convert anyone, but it is curious (to me). I think it's sometimes "misunderstood" (poor, poor Humilation. There, there. It'll be okay, really...). I know you are just curious about it and am glad you ask this question.

I guess the answer is that it doesn't really make me feel humiliated in a terribly uncomfortable way - it makes me feel more accepted (as someone indicated earlier). Like the other person knows me in all the ways they could, almost, the good and especially the "bad and embarrassing" parts, and they still care about me. That (to me) feels good. 
 
*Sidenote: I really prefer it if the other person makes sure I understand that I pleased them, and may need to reassure me I am important to them and they do still really care about me, if it has been an extra-humiliating scene Read: "edgy". I'd definitely consider this part of "aftercare".

I do differentiate it from Degradation. Degradation is (to me) more selfish in its motives, callous, more "hard-core", and possibly coming from a seriously "dysfunctional place" (but I don't want to have a conversation here about what I think might be "dysfunctional"  - especially on a bdsm website, hehe. For the record, I consider myself to be a basically a non-judgmental person, but feel a right to have personal kink preferences, as everyone does, of course. And where some of them may have come from is anybody's guess (really). I still don't understand it very well, really. I don't. But to me, Degradation equals not caring for another person's state of mind, or how one may be damaging their "psyche"  in a long-term way.

And also the line between the two is very subjective, I realize.
I know there are people who don't differentiate between these two "layers" because they "like all of it" no matter how "hard-core" it ever gets.

Again, I can't judge this (and I care not what other people want to do), but think there is a definite difference between these two things (for me anyway).

- Susan


I think part of the reason that humiliation gets a bad rap is that so many people consider humiliation from the point of its definition and use outside of BDSM and WIITWD.  That in itself is surprising, given the penchant we have for taking other terms from the vanilla world and modifying them to fit ours. 

I use humiliation in the way defined by Devon and Miller and Wiseman, et al...anything that, while causing embarassment and discomfort in a submissive, also causes an increasing sexual excitement and...if I am lucky and she also responds as others have noted on here...a deeper submissive state and a state of safety mixed with pride mixed with that hard-to-describe feel-good squirminess.

I separate humiliation from degradation in this way...degradation is applying the same tactics as humiliation only at a deeper and crueler level.  For me...and this is for me and whoever I would be with only...I differentiate the two by clarifying that degradation is a bad form of humiliation that does not make the submissive feel sexually hot or mentally stimulated but rather, makes her feel that she is less than she is...it calls up aspects of things that are in no way related to play or submission to controlled domination but rather hurt and controlling domineering; a way of pulling all safe footing out from beneath her.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 8:11:09 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
I separate humiliation from degradation in this way...degradation is applying the same tactics as humiliation only at a deeper and crueler level.  For me...and this is for me and whoever I would be with only...I differentiate the two by clarifying that degradation is a bad form of humiliation that does not make the submissive feel sexually hot or mentally stimulated but rather, makes her feel that she is less than she is...it calls up aspects of things that are in no way related to play or submission to controlled domination but rather hurt and controlling domineering; a way of pulling all safe footing out from beneath her.

But what if making her feel that way makes her extremely submissive and sexually excited?  Is it bad then?  I love when my Master makes me feel less than what I am.  It puts me in such a deep, quiet place.  But it's always temporary, and in the bigger scheme I always know what he really feels about me.  If I didn't, this type of activity could be very damaging to ones spirit.  Or maybe I define degradation differently.  Maybe I'm referring to an ultra-extreme form of humiliating, which to me I find degrading....and love it.  For example (and I won't get into many here because of the reactions people tend to have), when he shoves his cock in my mouth, refers to me as his toilet, and releases his urine into me while telling me what a convenient urinal I am, that is degrading.  It degrades me from a human to a urinal.  Two years ago that would have been hurtful and damaging to me.  Now I go into subspace, and it is an extremely intimate moment between he and I.  Yet I am less than human, hence, degraded.  But it is not a bad thing for me. 

I will state, however, that one must be very careful when introducing this kind of activity to a submissive/slave, as degradation does have the potential to be very damaging.  Not everyone can participate.  The nerves that are struck are very raw and run very deep.  I think this is why others have such a difficult time viewing and understanding humiliation - they can only relate to it with a personal reference.  Playing with ones emotions is tricky and delicate, with lots of room for grave error.  A submissive must really trust his/her dominant and must have a solid sense of self confidence and self esteem before traveling too far down that path.  It is not for everyone.

**I reread this and see that this post might be misinterpreted as saying those who handle humiliation are somehow better than those who do not.  I assure you that is not what I think or what I am saying.  I just think humiliation and degradation come with risks and not everyone's inner make up is positively affected by it.  Just like I can't handle external pain well, others aren't fans of internal pain. 

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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 8:11:14 AM   
MistressDolly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darksdesire


But, one thing i do know...When he uses humiliation in such a way that is very specific to me, i feel loved.  Perhaps it is because in those moments, i am the most exposed to him, and even as he humiliates, i am fully aware that he loves me.  It is as though he is playing with the most shameful parts of me, he is actually delighting in them, and loving and accepting them.  It's a paradox.  What should hurt becomes transformed into something that seems more healing.  What is shameful becomes exposed to the light and is accepted and loved, and becomes a source of pride.  Allowing him to see this part of me requires a profound trust that has taken a long time to achieve.  

i for one can say that humiliation in the context of a D/s relationship takes on a completely different flavor than the sort of humiliation that occurs in the vanilla world.



Well put.

(in reply to darksdesire)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 8:42:44 AM   
toservez


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From: All over now in Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
I separate humiliation from degradation in this way...degradation is applying the same tactics as humiliation only at a deeper and crueler level.  For me...and this is for me and whoever I would be with only...I differentiate the two by clarifying that degradation is a bad form of humiliation that does not make the submissive feel sexually hot or mentally stimulated but rather, makes her feel that she is less than she is...it calls up aspects of things that are in no way related to play or submission to controlled domination but rather hurt and controlling domineering; a way of pulling all safe footing out from beneath her.

But what if making her feel that way makes her extremely submissive and sexually excited?  Is it bad then?  I love when my Master makes me feel less than what I am.  It puts me in such a deep, quiet place.  But it's always temporary, and in the bigger scheme I always know what he really feels about me.  If I didn't, this type of activity could be very damaging to ones spirit.  Or maybe I define degradation differently.  Maybe I'm referring to an ultra-extreme form of humiliating, which to me I find degrading....and love it.  For example (and I won't get into many here because of the reactions people tend to have), when he shoves his cock in my mouth, refers to me as his toilet, and releases his urine into me while telling me what a convenient urinal I am, that is degrading.  It degrades me from a human to a urinal.  Two years ago that would have been hurtful and damaging to me.  Now I go into subspace, and it is an extremely intimate moment between he and I.  Yet I am less than human, hence, degraded.  But it is not a bad thing for me. 




This was worded so perfectly to how I feel. I have been avoiding and will still avoid specific examples because of the hijack thread possibility. It is a too each their own situation and feeling.

I do agree that degradation is a more severe form of humiliation but I certainly would not agree that it is a bad form of humiliation. To me that is like saying if a person has too high of a pain threshold or a person like to give a high level of pain then that is just bad pain. Like there is a good and bad level of pain. It still comes down to level that the two people are comfortable with, which certainly includes safety both physical and mental.

I will be honest the more degrading and objectifying it is for me the deeper and better feelings I have both in my submission level and thoughts as well as sexually satisfying when it goes into that area. For me I do not see why someone I care about to submit to this stuff doing these things to me as having some underlying bad emotional theme. To me I see no difference to this play and any other type play. I do not think a masochist wants a complete stranger to grab her and beat her off the street but welcomes their dominant to inflict pain and each party does not think less of each other. It is not for everyone just like anything else in life.



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 10:24:31 AM   
SusanofO


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CreativeDom: I agree. Degradation would make me feel like someone just slammed a door in my face, or pulled the rug out from under me.

Well ownegirlie: To some that (what you described) would be humiliating and not degrading. To some, it would maybe be neither and just 'regular play" (I don't find what you described particularly offensive). It' s all so subjective...to me, heavy-duty name-calling is very degrading, especially if I'd not be sure if the other person means it or not (which isn't really in their control) - but, some people do this all the time and love it. I also just hate words I know many just seem to love, like: Cunt, bitch, etc. , and although I don't consider their use specifically degrading (they seriously just make me want to laugh, instead, not sure why), I'd consider their use kind of a "mood-killer" because I think they are "on the edge" as far as that's concerned . But, it's all subjective (to me). 

- Ssan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/8/2006 11:00:02 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 10:37:11 AM   
whisperedsighs


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You are such the gentleman! 

_____________________________

oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 10:59:52 AM   
BRNaughtyAngel


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I definitely enjoy some aspects of humiliation.  I love Him calling me slut, whore, cunt, etc.....  But if he were to go into some areas that are sensitive for me then I would shut down.

I have found that I am able to cope better with "humiliating acts" if I'm with him, but would shut down if it was something I had to do outside of his presence.  Hope that makes sense.

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RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 11:21:55 AM   
PONYSEEKER


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Wow what a great thread!  I think you guys just ruined my Friday night...LOL
I am going to have to spend it studing all of this to figure out new ways to
humilliate my sub...LOL

Thanks Guys I Love It!!!

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Humiliation - 12/8/2006 11:40:10 AM   
LTRsubNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

I've never been one to accept a fetish for fetish sake. I have to understand it.
 
Having been raised with two older brothers, I had my share of humilation.
When hear somone "craves it, needs it, must have it", it hurts my heart and I wonder what demon inside them  requires they desire this.  Why do they feel the need for it?
 
So my question is- to those who enjoy it and such - WHY.




It's kinda like asking "why do you like autobiographies?" (some don't).

All I can tell you is, for me...there's no better way, sexually, to get my endorphins rushing.

(And don't ask me to explain why...I wish I could be like others, but I'm not...and I no longer debate myself on it...I just enjoy :)   )

_____________________________

Small deeds will always mean more than large intentions.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 40
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