Flip side to limits

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raiken -> Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 9:44:36 AM)
Hello All, With all the talk, and warnings about protection, safety, and respecting limits, and being clear about limits upfront, etc. i had the reverse thing happen to me. A dominant asked me what my limits were in an m/s relationship and if i had a safeword in place for my own protection. Well i basically told him that i have no limits, other than the obvious of no scat, kids, etc. and that i have never used or needed a safe word. i basically said that i merely trust my gut instincts and will act accordingly should i feel a warning signal come up. i went on to ask him, how can he expect me to have such things in place, while not knowing each other a bit to see how the journey progresses. He told me that i am foolish for thinking that way, and that he didn't want a doormat who had no thought of protection, safeword and limits in place...he said that was an indicator that i didn't value myself enough, and he wants a submissive who has this. i explained to him that i DO value myself and that is WHY i listen to my gut. Sheesh! He called me a doormat...LOL...just plain ole weird today...Nuttin much to say after that one...just thought it was one of the oddest responses and exchanges i have had so far... Just sharing...

Aine -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 9:47:33 AM)
It's amazing how little people really pay attention to what is said/written to them, eh? They skim, take a few "key" words, devise their own explanation of what you said, rather than reading it for what -you- said, and move forward just to make a complete ass of themselves.

BitaTruble -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 9:49:44 AM)
You just can't win for losing sometimes. Too many limits and you're topping from the bottom and trying to dictate how the energy and relationship flows.. not enough, you're a doormat who can't protect themselves from all the evil of the world. I'm the eternal optimist and am holding tight to the belief that one day everyone is simply going to 'get' it's all about compatibility. Celeste

Kalira -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 9:51:17 AM)
LOL You know, when Master and I were just talking with each other, boundaries came up quite a bit. We discussed them to death, literally; he had me think and rethink everyday about them. I had stated very early on that I did not believe in the use of safe-words; and he had made it quite clear that IF I did decide to come see him, that a safe-word would have no place in our time together. So, every day, he would ask me what my boundaries were, why they were in place, and how important they were to me. And he did not settle for my little -cop-out answers either lol ( because thats just gross, or because I dont think I could do that, or because, because, because ). I was forced to dig deep and find the reasons behind each. Only after I had done this, and made it clear in my own mind that this was acceptable to myself, did we progress with each other.

JerseyKrissi72 -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 9:56:35 AM)
Me and my late Master had a safe word just because I have had seizures in the past, suffer with blackouts under too much stress, etc...so for medical reasons if, because he was a large man, he was being too forceful and didn't realize it I could let him know...I never had to use the word, it was just set in place in case it was necessary.[:)]

Lordandmaster -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:02:55 AM)
Evolution can explain this much better than intelligent design. According to evolution, men like this have a way of dying before they can pass their genes on to the next generation. According to intelligent design, men like this serve some as-yet-undetermined purpose in the cosmic order. quote: ORIGINAL: raiken Sheesh! He called me a doormat...LOL...just plain ole weird today...Nuttin much to say after that one...just thought it was one of the oddest responses and exchanges i have had so far...

slavemaia -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:11:38 AM)
i think Dominants are in quite a vulnerable place as well and possibly when one hears a sub/slave say she has no limits, it's alarming to them because they don't instantly know another's pain tolerance. Master likes me to communicate alot with Him regarding my reactions to O/our play - He's still learning my body. i have trouble with this because i have no desire to control a scene, but i think any caring Dom/Master wants to know what feels safe for the sub/slave.

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:27:27 AM)
Well that is the thing. How can i know my pain tolerance or anything else, if i have yet to feel his touch? Just seems like common sense to me. Edited to add, that if something feels amiss during our progression, i would communicate this to him gradually, as we interacted. For i wouldn't know unless we tried it first.

Lenis -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:33:27 AM)
When talking with my slave, the topic of her limits still comes up every so often. We actually sat down and did what kalira and her Master did. I had her explain to me why they were a hard limit. After this talking she had still had a list of hard limits I will adhere to because the reason she didn't want to do them were valid in my eyes. The limits that were hard limits went into a list of soft limits that will be tried when she feels comfortable. A few of her hard limits turned to be things she loves me to do to her. -Brian

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:34:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: raiken Well i basically told him that i have no limits, other than the obvious of no scat, kids, etc. So then you DO have limits. It's one or the other. You just don't have MANY...or you've simply never run into a person with whom you needed to have many. quote: and that i have never used or needed a safe word. Again, I feel that you've simply not run into a person where you've felt you needed one. But, while I think that you actually do have limits and whatnot...it says that your gut has served you well in that you have chosen people in the past you trusted enough to not have had to implement these things. I think you should say that...let them know you find these things valuable, but that you are picky and take great care in finding people who are good matches so that it SEEMS as if you don't have these things. Master Fire

Kalira -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:35:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: raiken Well that is the thing. How can i know my pain tolerance or anything else, if i have yet to feel his touch? Just seems like common sense to me. Now see, I hate pain. Hate it with a passion. Nipple clamps make me scream like a baby [&:] Yet, Master is extremely sadistic; he enjoys knowing that I am in pain. Before we met, this was something that we had also talked in great depth about. His desire to give pain, and my dislike of it. Yet, I met him knowing that it WOULD be painful, and that there would be no stopping it if he chose to continue. One thing he promised me up front was that he would never continue if he thought that it was truly injuring me; mentally, physically, or emotionally ( yes, he loves those hateful mean little mind fucks too ). He kept his promise; there were a couple times that I thought I was going to pass out from the pain, and he stopped. You are correct in the assumption that one can only know your tolerance after they have seen you in person; that is something that I believe also.

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:36:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Evolution can explain this much better than intelligent design. According to evolution, men like this have a way of dying before they can pass their genes on to the next generation. ~Chuckles~ According to intelligent design, men like this serve some as-yet-undetermined purpose in the cosmic order. Or perhaps that illusive excuse to be branded as gods...~grinz Ah...i believe this merits it's own thread, so i won't go into that here in this one. ~grinz Hehehe...thinking that our lifestyle is another alternative offered...just as intelligent design is offered as another alternative to natural selection. ~smile

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:37:41 AM)
Personally, I believe that a submissive who has a ton of limits in place efore they met tends to be too limiting. Limits change within the relationship, new things are learned, experienced and limits are created and destroyed on a regular basis. Angel came to me with a few hard limits becasue of his beliefs. Beyond that, it is a grand experiment to find what he and I do and dont enjoy and where we can define ourselves. Any Dominant who cannot deal with a submissive without a set of limits already in place is more likely than not afraid that they will be without a framework to start with. I dont know why, ut someone that put off by your not having limits sounds almost like they were hoping to work from your lsit and nothave to think of what to do on their own... but maybe im just being a cynic toda. DV

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:42:50 AM)
It sounds like a bit of going too fast in the conversation too early mixed with some miscommunication and a heavy dose of cliches. No, you obviously can't have very many hard set boundaries on what you're ok with on a person before you've developed a relationship with them. But you SHOULD communicate that you've seriously thought about the issue. All I got from your response is "Generic limits are my limits, but I'll go with whatever you say until we reach something hard." As a dominant, this would sound like a line of a sub who expects me to do all the work to please them and pull answers from them and hasn't taken any REAL time to figure out what they like and what will harm them. (Trust me, plenty of people ARE ok with the "holy trinity of hard limits") I want to hear more than "We'll see." I want to hear "These sorts of things get me going, I have trouble with these, I'm open about these, I feel that letting you know as we go is more important, etc." On the other hand, the question he asked is never a question I would ask as it is a pretty pointless question and usually a typical fishing for responses/can't think of anything to actually meaningfully discuss/if you're going to say something I dislike I can drop you right here and move onto the next chick. So I think he handed you a lame question, you handed him a cliched lame answer in return and instead of working on it, just got pissy at you. Work on your responses to these TYPES of questions to show you've put serious thought into the issue, and that you're ready and willing to communicate openly and not make him have to fish for answers.

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:46:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam Again, I feel that you'd simply not run into a person where you've felt you needed one. Exactly...if something hurts, doesn't feel right, then i just say so at the moment, and we deal accordingly from that point. As it is an unexplored journey with each new person i meet. To impose limits on what is unknown, is to thwart growth as i see it. But, while I think that you actually do have limits and whatnot...it says that your gut has served you well in that you have chosen people in the past you trusted enough to not have had to implement these things. Yes, i did state this to him, i guess i needed to use more words, and that just letting him know i trust in my gut wasn't enough. i have general limits, of course, but what he was referring to was limits in the amount of pain or technique etc. and i stated to him that without first experiencing his touch, technique, etc. i have no way of knowing. i just thought he seemed intelligent enough to "get" it. My bad. ~grinz I think you should say that...let them know you find these things valuable, but that you are picky and take great care in finding people who are good matches so that it SEEMS as if you don't have these things. Well said as usual MasterFire. Tis exactly how i operate. ~smile Master Fire

onestandingstill -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:51:21 AM)
Hello raiken, I also feel much like you. Different Dominants will cause different limits with me. Until I know them well I can't decide what all of those specific limits may be. I like you go over my general basic ones and leave room by saying if you do something I can't take you'll be the first to know. The doormat name throwing comes from those online people who indeed do not value themselves and do not have any limits or concern for their health or wellbeing. This guy does not know you well so he's assuming. When you hear no limits you automatically think lack of reality, mentally ill, or not enough concern for themselves is an underlying problem in that person. Most of us have hard limits, but can have no limits with a Master that shares your specific limits. You can sometimes trust that your Dom knows you & he'd never require you to do something that's a given as a hard limit of yours as your reason to not need them. I too faced many a new online Dom asking me what my limits are. I devised a list of everything that was a limit for any person I've played with so far. The things I do with one, I may not be willing to do with others I put as negotiable limits in it's own category. It goes kind of like this Hard Limits Negotiable Limits Those that I will only allow a mated partner to do. This set of parameters seemed to work out well for me. It discusses what I like, what I'm willing to do, and the no way in hell category without putting myself in a box. I do have a safe word, though I've never used it and hope never have to. Good communication seems to prevent it from being necessary for me to have to safe word so far. Having one, and expecting to use it are two different things I guess. I have seen many a sub control scenes by safewording when it was more a preferential thing rather than a real reason they needed to stop. I've seen the opposite too where a woman should have safeworded but forgot she could. I say it's no big deal to say you know you have one, but using it should be few and far between if ever in my opinion. suzanne

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:00:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross As a dominant, this would sound like a line of a sub who expects me to do all the work to please them and pull answers from them and hasn't taken any REAL time to figure out what they like and what will harm them. (Trust me, plenty of people ARE ok with the "holy trinity of hard limits") I want to hear more than "We'll see." I want to hear "These sorts of things get me going, I have trouble with these, I'm open about these, I feel that letting you know as we go is more important, etc." Good point. Well we had been exchanging for a little while so he led me to believe that he understood my nature. i thought he understood because his responses indicated such. There i go, assuming...~blush~ On the other hand, the question he asked is never a question I would ask as it is a pretty pointless question and usually a typical fishing for responses/can't think of anything to actually meaningfully discuss/if you're going to say something I dislike I can drop you right here and move onto the next chick. This seems to fit, now that i think about it some more. So I think he handed you a lame question, you handed him a cliched lame answer in return and instead of working on it, just got pissy at you. Work on your responses to these TYPES of questions to show you've put serious thought into the issue, and that you're ready and willing to communicate openly and not make him have to fish for answers. Thank you. i didn't view it as making him fish for answers, i thought i has made myself clear, but ah well, live and learn, i will do that. It's just that i feel for me, things needn't be so complicated. ~sigh i am just a person who goes with the flow, and i have never had a problem so far in communicating what feels right and what feels borderline dangerous or health threatening, etc.

justanotheclaire -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:10:33 AM)
i have a two limits along with the whole scat kids thing and they are harm to my mental health and harm to my physical health everythign else can be worked towards, now thigns liek humiliation persoanlly fall under the mental health thing it sends me to the worst place and can leave me cowering in a corner. i dont feel this makes anyne a doormat im not here jsut to do the things i enjoy im here to serve and if it doesnt harm me in anyway whats the real reason not to do it? Im not saying i can do everything tomorow but i will work towards the places he needs me to go. ive always had a safeword mainly because only you know whats going on inside your body and mind but i dont feel i should ever really need it. if i get cramp ill say cramp if i feel faint ill say i dont feel well and if that last stroke of the cane feels like its almost severd my leg ill ask for a min to compose myself lol lol lol

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:11:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onestandingstill Hello raiken, I also feel much like you. Different Dominants will cause different limits with me. Until I know them well I can't decide what all of those specific limits may be. I like you go over my general basic ones and leave room by saying if you do something I can't take you'll be the first to know. Exactly how it has always been with me. I too faced many a new online Dom asking me what my limits are. I devised a list of everything that was a limit for any person I've played with so far. The things I do with one, I may not be willing to do with others I put as negotiable limits in it's own category. It goes kind of like this Hard Limits Negotiable Limits Those that I will only allow a mated partner to do. This set of parameters seemed to work out well for me. It discusses what I like, what I'm willing to do, and the no way in hell category without putting myself in a box. i understand, it may be what i have to do now that i am having to be online to meet folks it seems. ~sigh It gets frustrating. i get a headache having to think so much. ~smile It just feels like it needn't have to be this darn complicated at times. I have seen many a sub control scenes by safewording when it was more a preferential thing rather than a real reason they needed to stop. i have seen this also. I've seen the opposite too where a woman should have safeworded but forgot she could. See, for me, if something is seriously bothering me, i communicate this immediately. i really have no clue how i could forget to tell a dom that something is feeling harmful to my person. Even when in an altered state of mind, that would jump me right out of it. I say it's no big deal to say you know you have one, but using it should be few and far between if ever in my opinion. suzanne i like your opinion. ~smile

slavejali -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:33:34 AM)
quote: Original: DiurnalVampire limits are created and destroyed on a regular basis. That's so true, even your perspective, mood, the events of the day can change them. As most of you know, Master is deaf, a safeword wouldn't work for us even if we had one. Well we actually do, its his birth name. I've only ever used it once and it wasn't during play, I was being emotional one day and I just needed him to know I couldn't be pushed any further in that area. That was way back in the beginning, in the first few months of him being here, when we were still getting to know each other. As far as play goes, Master is so observant and knowledgable in technqie and of me a safeword is just not necessary. Re the doormat comment, all I can say is "Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr".

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