RE: Flip side to limits

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raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:38:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali quote: Original: DiurnalVampire limits are created and destroyed on a regular basis. That's so true, even your perspective, mood, the events of the day can change them. As most of you know, Master is deaf, a safeword wouldn't work for us even if we had one. Well we actually do, its his birth name. I've only ever used it once and it wasn't during play, I was being emotional one day and I just needed him to know I couldn't be pushed any further in that area. That was way back in the beginning, in the first few months of him being here, when we were still getting to know each other. As far as play goes, Master is so observant and knowledgable in technqie and of me a safeword is just not necessary. Re the doormat comment, all I can say is "Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr". So you have never called your master by his birth name since? How did it feel to call him that the first time? If i may ask? ~smile i have been called many things...but doormat, is not even close to what i would expect to be called by anyone. Ditto on the "grrrrr..."

Lady Alaria -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:44:28 AM)
Complicated? Methinks people are complicated. Relationships are even more complicated. There are a vast number of potential variables. There are also thousands of potential mates. So we need to form some set of criteria by which to judge them. Here online, all we have is what we're told. And how we interpret what we're told. So, we form fast judgments to sort through all the bs. And to sort through all the wonderful and great potential partners to find one(or in some cases, 3 or 4...or 12) that suits us best. In our fast judgments we make errors, misinterpret and occasionally make fools of ourselves. But what better option is there?

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:56:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria Complicated? Methinks people are complicated. Relationships are even more complicated. There are a vast number of potential variables. There are also thousands of potential mates. So we need to form some set of criteria by which to judge them. Here online, all we have is what we're told. And how we interpret what we're told. So, we form fast judgments to sort through all the bs. And to sort through all the wonderful and great potential partners to find one(or in some cases, 3 or 4...or 12) that suits us best. In our fast judgments we make errors, misinterpret and occasionally make fools of ourselves. But what better option is there? Yes relationships in and of themselves are complicated, and yes, because people are complicated...i agree...i am fairly new to online and am still learning how to navigate. But from what has been my experience online, it IS more complicated to me than in real time. i'm learning. ~grins Thank you for your thoughts Lady Alaria

RedSavageSlave -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 12:05:33 PM)
My response when someone asks what my limits are is actually quite simple... Why would I discuss my limits with someone I dont even know if I am going to ever meet? That is something the person I am playing with needs to know.. not everyone I have a conversation with in the lifestyle.

Lady Alaria -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 12:24:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: raiken Yes relationships in and of themselves are complicated, and yes, because people are complicated...i agree...i am fairly new to online and am still learning how to navigate. But from what has been my experience online, it IS more complicated to me than in real time. i'm learning. ~grins Thank you for your thoughts Lady Alaria Probably is more complicated in some ways. More people to interact with simultaneously, and sort through. But it's also missing that all important nonverbal 'chemistry' aspect. When you meet a person in person, you can get a better idea of them. Whether they attract you, how they feel about themselves, and their general grasp of reality. Some of these are harder to process online and take more time. The subtleties and subconscious decisions are replaced by conversation, questions and exploration. They are also replaced in part by how we interpret(or misinterpret) what we are presented with. So, with more words and less gut feeling, it feels more complicated, as it's far more cerebral.

Squeakers -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 3:25:36 PM)
quote: Limits change within the relationship, new things are learned, experienced and limits are created and destroyed on a regular basis. Excellant statement. I have always detested it when someone asks me what my limits I don't have a laundry list of them and figure if the person I am speaking to seems interesting enough to move forward with my limits will become known in time. I have never assumed that any of my limits were obvious especially something like scat, breath play, fire play or anything along those lines. There are many people who practice these things and for them these limits are NOT obvious. I remember years and years ago when I was a newbie to online a man that I was chatting to said he would use corporal not only on me but my children. For me that was one of those 'obvious' limits because I didn't use corporal on my children and no one else was going to either. I learned quickly that there were some people out there that I felt were 'mega' pervs, who did indeed consider my children a part of 'my' lifestyle. So when I did meet someone I considered interesting enough to continue speaking too on a higher level, I did spell out completely my 'hard' limits' most of which are morally based and for most a given but needed to be said regardless. I don't think one is a doormat for not having a laundry list of limits nor for not having a safe word. On the flip side if you had a huge list of limits, this Dom could have said, "you aren't really submissive at all, you are really trying to control the relationship with your long list of limits." In this case, it may not have mattered one way or the other.

SamKeithsslave -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 5:56:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: raiken A dominant asked me what my limits were in an m/s relationship and if i had a safeword in place for my own protection. Well i basically told him that i have no limits, other than the obvious of no scat, kids, etc. and that i have never used or needed a safe word. i basically said that i merely trust my gut instincts and will act accordingly should i feel a warning signal come up. I think most people have limits, its human nature, not everyone will enjoy every kink out there. I find it hard to answer what my limits are, some I am very definate about - such as scat, kids, water sports and others. My Master has asked me what my limits are, I tell him the ones that I am adamant about, but then state that I dont know what He might have in mind, so cant answer for the ones I dont know about. There are so many kinks out there that I wouldnt even think of, a good example was/is the recent pulled thread on farting etc. Now while I figure to each their own, this is not a kink I would think to say to Master "oh by the way I dont do the fart thing" - lol. I guess what I am saying is I'd never say "my only limits are ....... scat, kids etc" because you can never know what someone else may be thinking, which I guess is why safe words are very handy. I once attended a BDSM club with a girlfriend. She is Domme, there was in attendance that night a gent who was a sub that had never once uttered "yellow" - the initial safe word meaning, "check on me". The other being red meaning stop immediately what you are doing. I was told by a few people that he was really into pain and that many had really hurt him badly over the years yet he never uttered yellow or red. My girlfriend took this to be a challenge of sorts and strapped him down and took a Epilady/Emjoi to his testicles. Although he still never called out yellow, he later admitted he was as close as he had ever gotten. My point? Yeah I sort of have one - LOL - is that I'd never have thought to do that to anyone, and I certainly wouldnt have thought to name it as a limit! So IMO never state you have no limits other than .................. and always have a safe word with someone new until they get to know you and your limits. I tell Master and prior masters that I'd prefer to discuss before hand what might be happening in the course of an evening together, while it might kill some of the surprise element, it doesnt kill the mood by me flipping out over something.

DomKen -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 10:45:14 PM)
This topic always drives me nuts. Safe words/symbols and limits are for the Dominant as much or more than they are for the submissive. In an ideal world I would have many sessions over many weeks to learn my partners physical responses and body language and in that time my partner would develop complete trust in me as well before doing anything intense or boundary pushing. But in the real world the submissive wants to have really intense sessions right from the start since that is what she really prefers. Which makes it very tricky for the Dominant, is this how the submissive reacts when she is deeply into subspace or is she close to passing out from agony? What about the oh so very basic limit of whether or not bruises are acceptable and where they are acceptable? Dominants aren't mind readers and telling us before a session or even, horrors, during a session that something is too much for you isn't some awful thing. However, for me, telling me you have no limits and/or don't use safes is an absolute deal breaker.

slavejali -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:15:38 PM)
quote: So you have never called your master by his birth name since? How did it feel to call him that the first time? If i may ask? ~smile Yes, I have called him by his birthname since, its very rare and if it did happen it would eventuate in a work situation. ( I was going to say no I haven't, but Master saw this post before I posted it and said I have called him by his name occasionally at work). I can usually get away with calling him Master Eric amongst other people, as most people recognise him as that and feels perfectly fine to use and realistically if there are people around there isn't gonna be a need for a safeword (not that there ever is a need anymore when we are alone anyways). I might call him darling, or honey or whatever in social situations. If I'm talking to someone and referring to him, I may say Eric but that isn't directly to him. It did feel strange calling Master by his birthname that first time...and if I do do it now occassionally, it probably feels so strange I have wiped it from my memory cause I can't remember doing it but Master says I have so I must have.[;)]

Squeakers -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/21/2006 11:18:38 PM)
quote: But in the real world the submissive wants to have really intense sessions right from the start since that is what she really prefers . Not me. quote: What about the oh so very basic limit of whether or not bruises are acceptable and where they are acceptable? Bruises sometimes don't even show up until later on. Jeeze.

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 7:19:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali It did feel strange calling Master by his birthname that first time...and if I do do it now occassionally, it probably feels so strange I have wiped it from my memory cause I can't remember doing it but Master says I have so I must have.[;)] LOL i understand this perfectly...thank you for sharing ~smiles There were times when my former master would set me up in public on purpose...playin in my head...to see how i would get around not calling him by his birthname...then find amusement in my creative ways of always getting around it. ~grin

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 7:25:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Squeakers I don't think one is a doormat for not having a laundry list of limits nor for not having a safe word. On the flip side if you had a huge list of limits, this Dom could have said, "you aren't really submissive at all, you are really trying to control the relationship with your long list of limits." In this case, it may not have mattered one way or the other. Yes, it did matter, but it mattered for the second part of your thought. And the thought in an of itself is a cunundrum of sorts, i believe Bita said it early on, damned if you do and damned if you don't. ~different strokes...or ...~limits.

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 7:33:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave I find it hard to answer what my limits are, some I am very definate about - such as scat, kids, water sports and others. My Master has asked me what my limits are, I tell him the ones that I am adamant about, but then state that I dont know what He might have in mind, so cant answer for the ones I dont know about. There are so many kinks out there that I wouldnt even think of, a good example was/is the recent pulled thread on farting etc. Now while I figure to each their own, this is not a kink I would think to say to Master "oh by the way I dont do the fart thing" - lol. LOL Funny, but i feel much this same way for the most part. Hell i am just getting back into being in the dating scene after a very long relationship to my ex and former dominant, so i am still back in time warp tryin to get current. ~smile I guess what I am saying is I'd never say "my only limits are ....... scat, kids etc" because you can never know what someone else may be thinking, which I guess is why safe words are very handy. I once attended a BDSM club with a girlfriend. She is Domme, there was in attendance that night a gent who was a sub that had never once uttered "yellow" - the initial safe word meaning, "check on me". The other being red meaning stop immediately what you are doing. I was told by a few people that he was really into pain and that many had really hurt him badly over the years yet he never uttered yellow or red. My girlfriend took this to be a challenge of sorts and strapped him down and took a Epilady/Emjoi to his testicles. Although he still never called out yellow, he later admitted he was as close as he had ever gotten. My point? Yeah I sort of have one - LOL - is that I'd never have thought to do that to anyone, and I certainly wouldnt have thought to name it as a limit! So IMO never state you have no limits other than .................. and always have a safe word with someone new until they get to know you and your limits. I tell Master and prior masters that I'd prefer to discuss before hand what might be happening in the course of an evening together, while it might kill some of the surprise element, it doesnt kill the mood by me flipping out over something. i really enjoyed this thought...thank you for sharing...that is why i am very slow and picky with whom i choose to submit to...and like i said being new to the public scene after being out of it for many years, well things have vastly changed, and i have much catching up to do. :) i realize though that a safeword and limits serve well when playing in the public venue, and with folks that may or may not care as much about the other they play with, on a deeper level.

raiken -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 8:16:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen But in the real world the submissive wants to have really intense sessions right from the start since that is what she really prefers. That is not my real world, in fact quite the opposite. i choose to wait until i have a sense of the person i am with. Which makes it very tricky for the Dominant, is this how the submissive reacts when she is deeply into subspace or is she close to passing out from agony? What about the oh so very basic limit of whether or not bruises are acceptable and where they are acceptable? i am a go with the flow of each expereince on this one. i don't know if i am gong to bruise easily or not, depends on many variables, so until it happens, i can't really say with honest accuracy, but only generalize. Dominants aren't mind readers and telling us before a session or even, horrors, during a session that something is too much for you isn't some awful thing. However, for me, telling me you have no limits and/or don't use safes is an absolute deal breaker. i have never met any human that can read my mind. ~grin Of course i state the general limits, of no kids, no scat, no animals. But beyond this, i have only a vague idea as to how i would react to certain impliments and activities. i do not know all that is out there to explore or limit. Refer back to what SamKeithsslave stated. To list each and every experience i have had in the past would not be an accurate assessment of the present for me. What may have been a bad expereince in the past may be enjoyable to me now, because both my body and my mind have changed. It would be with a different person's touch and technique. i am not sure of my reactions to many stimulus, as i have just gotten back into the dating scene not too long ago, after living a quiet life serving my ex dominant for over 15 years. i am still catching up from being in the time warp, things have vastly changed since my earlier days. ~smile Hence this thread, for i needed other's perspectives to help me be more clear and sharp in my communication. Thank you for sharing. ~smile

cillydom -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 8:31:16 AM)
Isn’t being a sub being a doormat to at least one. The doormat question seems to be more a submissive discussion than a dominant one. I have come up with a working definition that seems to work, among subbies a doormat is " anyone more submissive than me". As far as safewords , in my opinion nothing is as safe as a dom that knows you and his limits. And as far as limits go, limits are rights and in a relationship are a zero sum game, the more rights the subbie has the fewer rights the dom has. Isn’t it sorta his place to look out for and protect her? And people that listen to their gut too much are called victims, a lil rational thought helps.

cillydom -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 8:34:22 AM)
Reading a subbies mind isn’t all that hard, just ask her., usually she wants to share her thoughts, but that said it may take some time to put it all together.

SamKeithsslave -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 2:14:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: raiken My point? Yeah I sort of have one - LOL - is that I'd never have thought to do that to anyone, and I certainly wouldnt have thought to name it as a limit! So IMO never state you have no limits other than .................. and always have a safe word with someone new until they get to know you and your limits. I tell Master and prior masters that I'd prefer to discuss before hand what might be happening in the course of an evening together, while it might kill some of the surprise element, it doesnt kill the mood by me flipping out over something. i really enjoyed this thought...thank you for sharing...that is why i am very slow and picky with whom i choose to submit to...and like i said being new to the public scene after being out of it for many years, well things have vastly changed, and i have much catching up to do. :) i realize though that a safeword and limits serve well when playing in the public venue, and with folks that may or may not care as much about the other they play with, on a deeper level. Your welcome and thank you. I hope it helps a few people rethink their "no limits" rule [:D]

empresschaos -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 3:05:37 PM)
Personally, I don't like hearing "I have no limits". Nobody is totally without limits, and in the vastness that is the internet, it's a good filtering tool; typically people who say that they have no limits often haven't done basic self-evaluation to figure out what they like and don't like. BUT! Just like anything else, you filter out some of the good with the bad. And some doms (perhaps the one you were talking to?) wanna know your limits right off because they get off on testing them.

bandit25 -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 4:28:26 PM)
I certainly don't think so...I'm not a doormat to anyone, at least, I believe that's what Master would say.

missjada -> RE: Flip side to limits (11/22/2006 6:28:38 PM)
Sometimes limits are not made until you are in the situation. The best way to learn limits is to do them. Pity he didnt konw that.

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