Is what we say actually what we mean?

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KnightofMists -> Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 6:03:20 PM)
communication is a stange thing. We have a variety of ways to communicate but how often are we saying things in a slang or lazy way.. but yet it is understood. Meaning... the person we are speaking to understands and we recieve the response we were looking for. This just doesn't happen with our long term partners but complete strangers as well for example.... a few days ago as I was consider my thoughts on communication as I was eating my dinner at a restaurant it hit me that I just ask for something from the waitress that didn't result in what I actually stated but did result in what I actually meant. I stated "Could I get a glass of water please?" what I stated actually required me to go and get the water... but in fact what I meant was 'Could you get me a glass of water please?' Which is exactly what occurred... the waitress brought me a glass of water. It dawned on me that the context/situation we are in will have a significant impact on how we interpert what is said. That we can actually be rather sloppy in what we say... but our specific situation allows us to get away with this type of sloppy communicating. This thought has started me thinking on how often are we communicate with one statement which means X but it is Y that we mean. How often are my slaves hearing X but know it means Y and act on Y. How many times do these types of sloppy communicating habits develop into miss-communications or misunderstandings when someone actually hears X and understands it as X... but yet I meant Y. This process is causing me to look more carefully at how effective I am at communicating... by actually saying what I mean. so finally a question or two. How effective do you think people are at communicating... what are you thoughts on communicating in general. What do you see as some of the challenges of communication. Where do you think people make the most mistakes in their communication.. In short... how do we become better communicators?..... particularly with our partners! editted for bad communicating lol

nefertari -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 6:15:55 PM)
Actually, "Could you get me a glass of water?" is a question that requires a yes or no answer. The correct wording would have been, "Would you bring me a glass of water, please?" No, I'm not normally nitpicky, but proper communication is the point of your thread. I prefer directness. A lot of people beat around the bush and use a lot of words to say what could have been said diplomatically in two sentences. It seems that many people take a lot of time trying to find just the right words (to be PC? I don't know) and then I'm no closer to understanding than I was before they started talking/typing. It comes across to me as pussyfooting and I want to say to them, "Just say what you mean!". Or sometimes I think they just like to hear themselves talk. ~shrugs~ Plus, my attention span isn't long enough to read some of the really long posts....just kinda skim through them. I don't normally use a disclaimer on my posts, but I'll make an exception this time. This is just my opinion on how I prefer to communicate. Edited to add: Think how LA posts. That's the kind of communication I like best. Short, sweet and to the point. [:)]

Sinergy -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 6:27:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists communication is a stange thing. We have a variety of ways to communicate but how often are we saying things in a slang or lazy way.. but yet it is understood. Meaning... the person we are speaking to understands and we recieve the response we were looking for. This just doesn't happen with our long term partners but complete strangers as well for example.... a few days ago as I was consider my thoughts on communication as I was eating my dinner at a restaurant it hit me that I just ask for something from the waitress that didn't result in what I actually stated but did result in what I actually meant. I stated "Could I get a glass of water please?" what I stated actually required me to go and get the water... but in fact what I meant was 'Could you get me a glass of water please?' Which is exactly what occurred... the waitress brought me a glass of water. It dawned on me that the context/situation we are in will have a significant impact on how we interpert what is said. That we can actually be rather sloppy in what we say... but our specific situation allows us to get away with this type of sloppy communicating. This thought has started me thinking on how often are we communicate with one statement which means X but it is Y that we mean. How often are my slaves hearing X but know it means Y and act on Y. How many times do these types of sloppy communicating habits develop into miss-communications or misunderstandings when someone actually hears X and understands it as X... but yet I meant Y. This process is causing me to look more carefully at how effective I am at communicating... by actually saying what I mean. so finally a question or two. How effective do you think people are at communicating... what are you thoughts on communicating in general. What do you see as some of the challenges of communication. Where do you think people make the most mistakes in their communication.. In short... how do we become better communicators?..... particularly with our partners! editted for bad communicating lol Hello A/all, Interesting thread. I tend to work diligently to change things about myself which I think need changing. For example, I used to throw my keys anywhere when I got home from work. Then I realized that the 2 minutes I spend looking for them every day adds up to weeks off my life. So I put up a key holder next to the front door and trained myself to put my keys there. I see my keys somewhere else, I make the effort to put the keys at the front door, as opposed to saying to myself "I will do it in a minute." After a while, this habit became ingrained in me. I have done this with many different things. Something happened in my life years ago that necessitated teaching myself to do this sort of thing, and over time it became a habit. A habit I approve of in myself. So to get to what you are saying KnightofMists, I feel similarly about communicating. If I am trying to say X and the person is hearing Y, I will generally apologize for not being clear and find a different way to say it. Again, old habits (computer user support) die hard, and learning how to clarify my points without being boorish or arrogant is something I had to learn professionally. Besides which, I dont tie my ego up into whether person X understands what I am saying to them, and I am not so impatient that I will allow myself to be angry at them. Throw in the fact that I tend to spend a lot of my day evaluating and monitoring what I do, and I would have to say that in the example you gave, I would start out saying "May I please have a glass of water." But then, I was in a LTR with a Canadian and the beauty and symmetry of a life led politely was something I found very attractive. I tend to not find most people to be very good at communicating, so my general approach when they say something to me is to say "I hear you are saying [blah]" and if I am not corrected, then I go with it. This tends to be difficult to do, at first, because many people are offended that one does not hear what they think they are saying. That is where politeness and an ability to say "I am sorry, please say it again" comes in handy. Often what I end up feeling sorry for (which I do not share with the person) is for leaving my Superman Secret Decoder Ring at home. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

juliaoceania -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 6:52:53 PM)
In communication class you learn that you have a sender and a receiver, these roles in interpersonal communication are not static, but dynamic, and at anytime the sender or the receiver can change roles. The interaction between the two people builds off each other, and often what someone hears is not what one says. Nothing in my life has illustrated this more to me than having a teenager in my home. I say one thing and he hears another, this is sometimes borne of convenience on his part or at times it is due to his interpretation of what I am saying being wrong. This has brought some deep thought on this subject to my mind, and I have noticed that it is the expectation of what he thinks I am saying that leads to the most troubles between us. He has grown to expect a certain response or set of responses from me, and when I do not say what he expects twists it in his own mind to reflect what he thought I was going to say. It led me to think about how people interpret what we say based on the expectation of what they think we are trying to communicate. I do it to people, people do it to me. I think this is a big part of the problem of communication... Take your waitress, she did not interpret what you said in the exact way you phrased it because she expected that you meant her to get the water. She was right, often these interpretations and expectations are perfectly legitimate, possibly unavoidable, and things run fairly smoothly because we interpret messages within the context of them being delivered to us. I would even dare say this is inevitable and normal.. it only becomes a problem when we allow ourselves to be locked into a negative communication pattern, become offended, or get angry with someone because of these sorts of misunderstandings. I think most of us communicate adequately for the most part on a day to day basis, but I certainly could be more mindful with how I go about communicating, especially with my loved ones.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 7:14:13 PM)
In general, I think I'm pretty good at saying what I mean and meaning what I say. The problem is, most people aren't as literal as I am when it comes to speaking nor are they as sardonic as I am when it comes to humor AND I rarely connect on an emotional level. So in terms of actual communication- sometimes I really suck at it because of those things. The good news is that I'm very aware of my/their common problems and can correct for them pretty quickly, and I'm patient with the process of communication and focus on the long term ultimate result- communication is a process for me.

denika -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 7:26:45 PM)
I'm starting to think you should be the one writing my book s My line of work is all about communication, since I can't stop or help in an emergency with any form of ESP. I have to rely on my ability to communicate effectivly what I need the person on the other end of the phone to do, be it cadence of voice,persistant repition or how I phrase my responces. Funny enough I find it easier to communicate on paper, As a teenager I would leave notes to my Father beside his coffee cup in the morning. He was almost a characture of British stiff-upper-lip behavior so I never knew how to talk to him. He never made a comment about the notes until years later when he was dying of cancer. He told me how much they meant to him. He hadn't known how to talk to me either. Communication can be done in so many ways, a look, a touch, a note. It is something that gets over looked. It's just what we do on a daily basis to make our needs known but thinking about how we say it and whom we say it too can make all the diffrence. I always say 'I love you' as if I might not get the chance to say it again. Something I have noticed is far too many people take for granted that others can catch what we mean, For the most part it's understood. 'Could you get me a glass of water over could I get a glass of water' the meaning is pretty clear. Unfortunatly I have seen some individuals get right pissed when their message is missunder stood, expecting the submissive(bottom/slave pick your term) to just 'know' what they want. That's where clarity and open lines of communication are paramount in a healthy relationship denika

subinktown -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 7:37:51 PM)
I try really hard to say what I mean, and definitely to mean what I say. There are times, however, when things may seem a little fuzzy after the words have left my mouth, so I will follow up with "does that make sense?" Having a grown son who had learning disabilities and ADHD helped me learn these lessons. Working with many people who use English as their second language has also helped train me to speak with purpose. julia is absolutely correct about the teenagers too!!! Just last night, I asked my son if he wanted to continue living here (there have been some....issues). He replied, "well, I don't have anywhere else to go." I said, "that's not what I asked." I had to remind him to listen effectively....haha. As a writer, I also believe that when I put thoughts to "paper", it is my responsibility to be clear on my meaning...unless I am intentionally trying to be vague, so the reader can make his/her own interpretation. Sometimes I'm successful. [:)]

mystiquenz -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 8:43:45 PM)
Sinergy said: quote: I used to throw my keys anywhere when I got home from work. Then I realized that the 2 minutes I spend looking for them every day adds up to weeks off my life. Sir, i think, that there are keyrings, that if you whistle, they will whistle back. I too have had problems, putting keys on the keyring by the back door, and I do try to remember to put them there, but when I find myself running short of time, then, that is usually the time that i have misplaced my keys, and because I can't whistle, a whistling keyring, in response to a whistle is lost on me! You could always get a puppy dog, and teach it to fetch and retrieve, but as I don't have time for a puppy, then, i suppose, i just continue to place the keys on the key ring by the back door. Thank you for the smile Sinergy, Sir.

mystiquenz -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 8:50:01 PM)
Knight of Mists, thank You for this thread. I think that sometimes, communication is often the lack of communication. We communicate with our body, with the eyes, with the tone of our voice, with a finger, or a gesture. I think often, people don't listen to the words, or the vibration of the tone. I think that a lot of times, one is just "expected" to know, what the other one is thinking. That is when you can run into real problems, because none of us are mind readers. If we were, we could do the clarovoyants out of work! How often do you just know, what the other is thinking, or think that you do. How often does the silence, get mis understood and mis interpreted. How often, do sideway glances get misconstrued. I think that a part of all close relationships, with the people that you love and care for, silence, is not enough, sometimes the words, and the feelings need to be expressed by word, by gesture and by deed. Excellent thread, and will enjoy watching the other contributions as they roll in.

crouchingtigress -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 9:12:19 PM)
I think that is important to know where your keys are.....and i mean exactly that.

raiken -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 9:20:59 PM)
Oh boy, this is a tough one for me to use less words to say what i mean. i am getting better though, but sometimes i still find i pick apart my words, and change things, so much so, that i loose my original thought! grin i used to be a waitress, one of my first jobs as a teen. i had folks making all sorts of requests, who spoke in broken english, broken spanish, and several other languages. But since it was a restaurant, it wasn't difficult to figure out why folks were there and what they wanted. Folks were good at using gestures and pointing, etc. i grew up in a house that spoke 3 different languages. Mom would begin in one language and midway switch to another, then end in yet another. Some in our home didn't speak all 3 languages fluently, but understood enough of each other when that occured to get by. There were many cultural expressions that couldn't accurately be translated. Some of my family would speak in one language and an answer at times, would come back in another. The hardest thing for me, when i was young, was learning english, and speaking it properly, with the right expressions, voice inflection and tone, and correct body language to match. i realized in order to speak english really well, i had to train myself to think only in that language, and express my feelings* in that language as well. Plus work on my accent and not speak broken. i could go on, but i think to stop here, so that my post is not so long it will get skimmed over. *smile

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 9:36:13 PM)
My problem tends to be being a little TOO good at saying what I am trying to say. I have never gotten te knack of prettying up what I say to protect peoples feelings. I have the tact not to offer opinions and ideas unless asked, however anyone asking knows to expect a raw thought without th esocietal sugarcoating that many have come to know and love. On one hand, it makes it very simple to know what I expect, there is no translating and digging for hidden meanings in my statements. On the other hand, not everyone really wants to hear your honest answer when they ask a question. There are diplomatic answers to loaded questions like does an outfit make someone look fat, or dont you think my baby/dog/sig other is adorable. As for sloppy and lazy, its more a manner of how strictly we interpret grammar. There are a lot of phrases that are understood to mean something, but technically mean something completely different. When I go into a restaurat, for instance, a friend of mine and I have a running tally. I ask "May I havea coffee please" and we are keeping track of how many people accept the order as is, and how many find it necessary to ask me "Cup of coffee?" as if there is another alternative. (Once, we did say, no Id like a bowl, much to the waitresses amusement when she realized how strange the question sounded) Its a matter of what we have learned to accept. Every dialect is different. As soon as I get the hang of one, I move. I am going to be tackling the Southern way next, so help me. A New Yorker in Nashville. DV

Mavis -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 10:29:08 PM)
This is the first and most difficult area Master worked with on me. He spotted something i'd been doing for years with Hubby, and it is part of what fed His subtle but deeply held feeling that i was evasive, when i think i am the most open and direct person in our household! Hubby: Are you going out today? Me: i need to mail this package, then lunch with friend, should i bring you home something or do you want to meet us there after work? To Both M and H.. it was a yes or no question. A. or B. i consistantly answered A or B questions with "C". He was asking if i was going out, (y / n) because He wanted to know who would be here to meet the cable guy. But i was trying to answer what i thought he might have wanted... maybe He was asking because He wanted to know where i was going to be, what my arrangements were for dinner... or to ask me to pick something up if i was out. My trying to give the fullest answer i could to fill in all the blanks i could think of only served to make Him feel i was evading a simple yes or no question. It took Master to point out it was a subtle power grab, as i was sure i knew what was wanted and i designed my answer to meet only what needs i felt were acceptable options, rather than waiting for Hubby to give me details if needed. After all, He might just have wanted to know for no reason other than curiosity. Of course, by now hubby has learned in the example above, He might have just said "The cable guy is coming, will you be here?" Or even, "Please be here 2-4 because the cable guy is coming" or wow, for the really domli touch, "I need you to be here between 2 and 4, and call cable if the guy isn't here by 4." W/we spent so many years pussy-footing language, and W/we both presumably speak english. i cannot imagine how hard it must have been in raikens shoes with 3 languages to sort!

juliaoceania -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 10:34:39 PM)
This post reminded me of this, I will post an excerpt English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English muffins weren't invented in England or French fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. We take English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find that: quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig. And why is it that: Writers write, but fingers don't fing? Grocers don't groce, and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one moose, 2 meese? One index, 2 indices? Doesn't it seem crazy: That you can make amends but not one amend? That you comb through annals of history but not a single annal? If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call it? If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat? Sometimes I think all the English speakers should be committed to an asylum for the verbally insane. In what language do people: Recite at a play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell? How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? How can overlook and oversee be opposites, while quite a lot and quite a few are alike? How can the weather be hot as hell one day and cold as hell another? http://www.i18nguy.com/english-is-tough.html

popeye1250 -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 10:42:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: raiken Oh boy, this is a tough one for me to use less words to say what i mean. i am getting better though, but sometimes i still find i pick apart my words, and change things, so much so, that i loose my original thought! grin i used to be a waitress, one of my first jobs as a teen. i had folks making all sorts of requests, who spoke in broken english, broken spanish, and several other languages. But since it was a restaurant, it wasn't difficult to figure out why folks were there and what they wanted. Folks were good at using gestures and pointing, etc. i grew up in a house that spoke 3 different languages. Mom would begin in one language and midway switch to another, then end in yet another. Some in our home didn't speak all 3 languages fluently, but understood enough of each other when that occured to get by. There were many cultural expressions that couldn't accurately be translated. Some of my family would speak in one language and an answer at times, would come back in another. The hardest thing for me, when i was young, was learning english, and speaking it properly, with the right expressions, voice inflection and tone, and correct body language to match. i realized in order to speak english really well, i had to train myself to think only in that language, and express my feelings* in that language as well. Plus work on my accent and not speak broken. i could go on, but i think to stop here, so that my post is not so long it will get skimmed over. *smile Raiken, I had a similar experience as my grandparents on one side spoke Irish Gaelic as their first language but they spoke English as well albeit with a heavy Irish accent and me and my brother would pick up on some of the words. On the other side my gr grandfather spoke Irish Gaelic but another dialect from the other grandparents! And there were THREE "Tommy's" in the house! Sheesh! Talk about confusion!

BitaTruble -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/26/2006 10:49:58 PM)
quote: How effective do you think people are at communicating... what are you thoughts on communicating in general. What do you see as some of the challenges of communication. Where do you think people make the most mistakes in their communication.. In short... how do we become better communicators?..... particularly with our partners! Himself and I had several obstacles to overcome in order to effectively communicate. First, I had to learn New York, Bronx 'speak.' Forget trying to understand what he actually meant, step one was trying to figure out what he said in the first place! His spoken words are often flowered with Yiddish sayings as well, none of which I understood. There are still times when I ask him to spell something for me because I just can't make out what, exactly, he's saying. Once my ear was trained to his accent, things went to a different level with miscommunication. Like LA, I am a literalist. If someone tells me something, I take them at face value and work on the theory that they meant exactly what they said. This, coupled with Master's rather ribald sense of humor, was another obstacle to overcome in effective communication. I don't always 'get' things and can't always tell when he's just teasing me or joking around. (He, of course, claims this is because I have no sense of humor.. but the truth is.. sometimes he's just not very funny. [8D]) Now let me add into the mix that I believe myself to be a pretty damn good slave, believe in obedience without hesitation and I'm going to be doing what he 'says' and not what I think he 'meant' and it's a recipe for disaster. ::laughs:: In short, how we learned to communicate effectively was via a process of trail and error and, of course, the effort we've both put in to wanting clear communication. He figured out that I take him literally and I learned (mostly) to differentiate between teasing and a serious request or command and I've a much better handle on sarcasm thanks to him as well. Celeste

julietsierra -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/27/2006 3:26:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nefertari Actually, "Could you get me a glass of water?" is a question that requires a yes or no answer. The correct wording would have been, "Would you bring me a glass of water, please?" No, I'm not normally nitpicky, but proper communication is the point of your thread. Well, in the interests of proper communication, getting nitpicky and all that, using the word "would" implies that the person you're directing this to has a choice, and the answer can still end up being either yes or no. So, the correct way to ask (not necessarily the politest) this so that there is no room for misinterpretation, would be "please bring me a glass of water." It is a directive and still cloaked in politeness. The person this is directed to can still say "yes" or "no," but now, his or her actions are directly dependant on what he or she chooses to do about your directive. juliet

gypsygrl -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/27/2006 3:28:24 AM)
As a kid I had a partial hearing deficit related to chronic ear infections that wasn't discovered until I went to kindergarten. According to my parents, I only heard some of the time, was slow in learning to talk and when I did talk, had speech impediments. My parents assumed I was retarded because I just didn't pick up on things, and people often misunderstood what I said and I often didn't understand what others said. Speech, my own and others, was a source of confusion. I out grew the ear infections and hear fine, but can still be easily confused by speech. There's a point where it just doesn't work for me, and I rely on body language and other cues and its incredibly easy for me to become overwhelmed and 'tune out.' I assume alot of this has to do with my early childhood experience of not being able to rely on speech as a vehicle for communication or manage some of the more subtle aspects of verbal communication. (although, I'm also pretty sure that there's other factors that play into this)/ In a way, and I've only realized this as I've gotten older, this has made me a pretty effective communicator. I don't ever make the mistake of thinking I understand someone without making sure and I don't assume another understands me. I do a lot of "checking in" trying to make sure understanding has occured and see effective communication as a process that unfolds over time. I'm very sensitive to the 'total picture' including non-verbal cues and the context in which communication occurs. I'm incredibly reflective and am always thinking back over an interaction, reviewing it as if it were a film in my head, carrying on the work of interpretation even after the actual communication has occurred. There's also a downside. I'm still slow to pick up on verbal things, though I'm much better with texts, can become easily baffled and overwhelmed if speech comes at me too fast, and tune out in reaction to that. Its hard for me to remain present. I prefer direct, concrete messages, and am very much a literalist. The more subtle, latent meanings of words often go over my head, and I miss jokes, am never sure what to do with sarcasm, take things personally that I shouldn't and do all others funky things that cause problems. Besides the fact that I'm always wrestling with this deep feeling of being misunderstood thats probably hardwired. So, to answer the questions in the OP, I haven't a clue. I don't know. I thought you said...but maybe you meant...were you joking? Am I being too ernest? I just don't know. And I truely wonder if its possible to really understand whats going on in another's head. But, I keep trying. And, I don't know if there's much more that we can do.

Dnomyar -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/27/2006 4:55:09 AM)
What if you cant whistle then you would never find your keys. Some people consider me rude because Im blunt and get to the point right away. I forget to say hello , how are you etc. If you have something you want to tell me get to the point I dont want to hear your life story.

meatcleaver -> RE: Is what we say actually what we mean? (10/27/2006 5:26:01 AM)
Anyone who speaks more than one language who has given this subject a little thought will realize that spoken language is a very crude form of communication. The more languages you speak (I speak four) the more you realize this fact, hence the additional need for body language and facial expression to give a fully rounded mode of communication. Though cross culturally, body language and facial expression can cause miscommunication in themselves. I used to communicate online with someone who often thought I was angry when I wasn't, though her insistance that miscommunication in writing was impossible didn't help but of course miscommunication is easy which is why emoticons were invented.

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