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RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 6:14:24 PM

SirLordTrainer

Posts: 820
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: Indy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassAct2006

I'm not into it. By all means less someone dress up playing around as punishment but if I want to please someone and I get it wrong it's probably his fault for not communicating right and then you talk about it. Punishment doesn't work on children or adults in my view and there are always other ways to deal with it. I'm not saying I'd never accept it in a D/S relationship but it's something I always quiz men about

First you say your not 'into it'.. and then it doesnt work on children or adults, but then you say ''I'm not saying I'd never accept it in a D/S relationship'' So which is it!? chuckles..

_____________________________

Accepting one's own imperfections eliminates a roadblock to progress.

(in reply to ClassAct2006)

Post #: 41

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 7:51:34 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

That was the other thing that confused me. He hadn't really communicated to me what he expected from a slave or told me that I was doing/not doing things that bothered him. So when he told me later that I had a lot to learn (like always lighting his cigarette before mine, waiting to sit down until he does and waiting to eat until he does), and then said that he would have to train and punish me for me to learn those things, I was distraut. If I had known what he wanted or realized that I was making mistakes, I would have corrected them, but being told after the fact and then having punishment brought into the solution was very upsetting.

This is a red flag for me. If the framework isn't set up for you to behave properly up front then you're both asking for trouble. I'm all for the "naughty sub" play. But that need to be in the correct context so that you know it's play and not serious. Saying that you're going to be punished for x,y, & z without telling you what those are is creating anxiety and can also create additional trauma. Abuse survivors frequently have had circumstances where they are punished "for the fuck if it" and learn to run & scurry in the hopes that you'll be overlooked that day. While many masters would get off on this it's very hard mentally on the subs, especially those that have experienced this for real in a non-consentual way.
I would have a long talk with him. Tell him how you feel and start working on your rules. I know that people moan and groan about the 120 rules list but it's a good jumping off point for intelligent discussion and picking the 10-20 and are most useful and important in the context of your relationship. If he chooses all 120 and adds a few "just for the fuck of it" you also have your answer. Knowing what you're in for is half the battle.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 42

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 8:17:21 PM

Smythe

Posts: 369
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Thanks, John

That is so true. This isn't a game for me. I am serious about wanting to embrace a new life with him and I do need support and encouragement to make the changes that I know will be required of me. I think he's really beginning to understand this and adjust his ways of dealing with me accordingly.

sp

A word from the Dominant perspective, sp. I don't think I am giving away any domly secrets when I say that there is a certain amount of pleasure attached to saying, "I am going to train you and it will be difficult and I might have to punish you." That, in and of itself, was probably somewhat fun for your future Master. The fact that he had you shaking in your boots and taking the situation very seriously most likely increased his pleasure.

So look at it this way: you have already pleased him immensely just by being you. Training will be a cinch!
Best of luck
Smythe

_____________________________

Do not consider painful what is good for you.
Euripides

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 43

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 11:54:05 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is no punishment in my relationship, and a harsh word can tend to crush me...

Hello A/all,

What interests me about this comment is the fact that harsh words seem to crush her far less than my politely expressing my displeasure or disappointment about something she has done or not done.

I dont do harsh words. I thought it was obnoxious and juvenile when my parents did it to me, and I refuse to follow in their footsteps.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 44

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 11:58:47 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

True... harsh words is a little harsh....smiles

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 45

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 12:05:38 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

True... harsh words is a little harsh....smiles

Although...

I am not sure I can recall a time when I actually felt julia needed to be punished for having done something, so perhaps I am not much help on this thread.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 46

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 12:17:30 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

Naughty sub play only works when tey know they are being naughty. Punishing before someone is given the oppertunity to correct their own behavior is going to make your punishments less effective and going to ruin the trust base you are building with your sub.
My boy knows what he can get in trouble for. Whenever another problem arrises that could potentialy be punishable, the first offense is a warning. I will punish if necessary if that is repeated after he knew it was wrong.

my 2 cents
DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 47

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 6:34:19 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

I've been punished once, not to "teach me" anything but to allow me to release guilt. He had already forgiven me but I wasn't able to accept it.

Otherwise, it is not part of our dynamic. He explains things, he also understands that after 50 odd years of doing something my way, I do need a learning curve to master a new way of dealing with a situation. But something I disagree with? Sorry, you can't beat me into changing my mind. All that would do would make me change my mind whether or not he was someone I could trust and talk to.

There are situations where we disagree and it goes his way. But not because I've been punished or am afraid of being punished. Because I've agreed to accept his decisions. On the occasions, very rare btw, where I cannot accept his decision? He accepts that. And those situations have only come up in an area he already agreed he wouldn't control.

Basically, just because he's the boss doesn't mean I get beaten with a stick, or forced to kneel on rice or whatever. We don't believe in it.

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 48

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 7:01:47 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

True... harsh words is a little harsh....smiles

Although...

I am not sure I can recall a time when I actually felt julia needed to be punished for having done something, so perhaps I am not much help on this thread.

Sinergy

Somehow, you just don't seem like the 'harsh words' type, Sinergy!

I think it's wonderful that the two of you have such a positive dynamic going on, and that is growing even deeper.

I wanna be good like julia!

sp

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 49

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 7:25:21 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I've been punished once, not to "teach me" anything but to allow me to release guilt. He had already forgiven me but I wasn't able to accept it.

Otherwise, it is not part of our dynamic. He explains things, he also understands that after 50 odd years of doing something my way, I do need a learning curve to master a new way of dealing with a situation. But something I disagree with? Sorry, you can't beat me into changing my mind. All that would do would make me change my mind whether or not he was someone I could trust and talk to.

There are situations where we disagree and it goes his way. But not because I've been punished or am afraid of being punished. Because I've agreed to accept his decisions. On the occasions, very rare btw, where I cannot accept his decision? He accepts that. And those situations have only come up in an area he already agreed he wouldn't control.

Basically, just because he's the boss doesn't mean I get beaten with a stick, or forced to kneel on rice or whatever. We don't believe in it.

Releasing guilt through punishment is something I've experienced during my one corporal punishment, and I didn't really anticipate that it would work that way. I felt horrible at what I had done and knew that it was of the magnitude that if he chose to, he could release me over it. In fact, that's what he wanted to do, because he felt that if I would do such a thing then he had no authority over me. But somehow, when I fully submitted to him for punishment and he saw that it didn't even occur to me to resist it, even when it got to a pain level much higher than I'd ever imagined or experienced.

I do remember being stunned when it was finally finished, and having the impulse to take my collar off and throw it at him in shock that he would hurt me so badly, but I didn't. I retreated to the bedroom quietly weeping.

My biggest surprise was how tender he was to me when he came to me to comfort me and how he told me how proud he was of me for the way I submitted to it. Even though I had a few rough days processing the whole thing, he continued to be firm and loving with me and never once rubbed my face in what I had done. It was over, and balance was restored, and I felt a level of safety and trust that was so new to me.

It was so different from the way my dad had been with me. There was no rage, and it was followed by tenderness, and ultimately I could accept that it was fair and necessary.

It's something I don't wish to repeat, either, but I can accept that there may come a time when my future Master does feel it necessary to punish me and I can only hope that if it does happen, I can accept it, learn and then move on.

Another good point you bring up, celeste, is that you are not punished for disagreeing with him-'beating [you] into changing [your] mind'. That's another thing I experienced a lot as a child. My dad and I would argue but then he would fly into a rage, call me names, and beat the hell out of me saying, 'If you don't respect me, I'll beat it into you!' Somehow it didn't work that way, and I only resented him more. It was a constant control battle with no resolution.

I think that's why it's very healing for me to submit myself to a strong man who I already respect and trust.

Thanks for your thoughts,
sp

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 50

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 7:36:43 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smythe

A word from the Dominant perspective, sp. I don't think I am giving away any domly secrets when I say that there is a certain amount of pleasure attached to saying, "I am going to train you and it will be difficult and I might have to punish you." That, in and of itself, was probably somewhat fun for your future Master. The fact that he had you shaking in your boots and taking the situation very seriously most likely increased his pleasure.

So look at it this way: you have already pleased him immensely just by being you. Training will be a cinch!
Best of luck
Smythe

Smythe,

I've really thought a lot about this since you posted it last night. I never really thought of it that way. I guess I have a lot to learn about how Doms think!

(in reply to Smythe)

Post #: 51

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 7:46:29 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

This is a red flag for me. If the framework isn't set up for you to behave properly up front then you're both asking for trouble. I'm all for the "naughty sub" play. But that need to be in the correct context so that you know it's play and not serious. Saying that you're going to be punished for x,y, & z without telling you what those are is creating anxiety and can also create additional trauma. Abuse survivors frequently have had circumstances where they are punished "for the fuck if it" and learn to run & scurry in the hopes that you'll be overlooked that day. While many masters would get off on this it's very hard mentally on the subs, especially those that have experienced this for real in a non-consentual way.
I would have a long talk with him. Tell him how you feel and start working on your rules. I know that people moan and groan about the 120 rules list but it's a good jumping off point for intelligent discussion and picking the 10-20 and are most useful and important in the context of your relationship. If he chooses all 120 and adds a few "just for the fuck of it" you also have your answer. Knowing what you're in for is half the battle.

quote:

Naughty sub play only works when tey know they are being naughty. Punishing before someone is given the oppertunity to correct their own behavior is going to make your punishments less effective and going to ruin the trust base you are building with your sub.
My boy knows what he can get in trouble for. Whenever another problem arrises that could potentialy be punishable, the first offense is a warning. I will punish if necessary if that is repeated after he knew it was wrong.

my 2 cents
DV

Regarding 'naughty sub play'--my sense is, that unless it's just a playful thing (like a swat on the ass if I am playfully teasing him or something), that probably won't be a part of our dynamic. And he's working on an email for me to communicate what it is he's looking for in an M/s relationship, and of course he wants my feedback on how I see things, too, and what I want/need in order to be happy. So before there is any correction, I will know the boundaries so there are no surprises. (You're right about how that can be very crazy-making.)

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 52

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 8:59:08 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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With me, by and large punishment is to send the clear signal: "You really messed up in an unacceptable way". Most often this is an attitude problem, a case where I believe not enough attention is being paid to me and to doing something.

I hate doing it, I hate having to do it. Frankly if someone required more than a very rare punishment, I'd show him/her the door.

People make errors and mistakes but instead of punishment I think reinforcement and repeated performance are better.

Didn't fold the laundry the exact way I wanted? I'll give it all back to you and say "Redo it" then I'll watch and point out problems as you redo it.

Spilled a glass of water when you brought it me? Clean it and get another glass. We'll work on walking around with a glass of water for a few minutes everyday until it becomes second nature.

I personally believe that anyone who has an attitude problem is probably not really inclined to be a slave. Perhaps a bottom or a brat or even a masochist or maybe a part-time sub but not a slave. You have to actually want to do a good job in order to do a good job in terms of what I at least expect from Ds. If I just wanted someone to do housework I could hire a maid or service afterall so it isn't so much the technical as it is the attitude.

_____________________________

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(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 53

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/17/2006 6:41:38 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

When I was looking for a dominant I would not respond to men that used the word "strict" or "punish" in their profiles because I figured if punishments and strictness were so important to them as a kink or relationship dynamic I was probably going to get crushed by them because I am extremely sensitive. One-size-fits-all punishment approach to Ds would not work well with me.

Hello A/all,

This comment got me thinking about why I do things the way that I do them.

I used to play a lot of Go, which is a Chinese game from thousands of years ago and picked up by the Japanese. At one point, I was approaching a level where I could play in professional tournaments.

I used to win Chess tournaments, but after playing Go for a few years I found the game of Chess rather limited.

I say this because Chess is mathematical in nature. Set up your strategy, simplify, go for the knockout blow.

Go is aesthetic. You have a 19x19 board and you can play a stone anywhere on it which never moves the rest of the game. What is weird is that stones have power relationships to the rest of the board. Play to solidly in one area, you will probably end up controlling that area but give up the rest of the board to your opponent. Force a fight, might end up losing it and bequeathing power over every other formation on the board to your opponent.. Dont force a fight, might end up not losing. You might lose EVERY local fight on the board, may end up winning the game. It is about sensing how all the different stones interrelate to each other. A really good Go player is one who can sense this and build a strategy based on it.

The stones played in the first 1/4 of the game are far more important than the ones played later. A person who does not understand how to play the first part of the game will almost always lose.

What this has to do with punishment, in my opinion, is that I feel it necessary to understand the power relationships in the dynamic. It is too easy to get drawn in to playing "solid" in a relationship, whereas many of the facets of the dynamic may be below the level they can be known about. It is similar to surfing (or skiing or martial arts or driving or whatever). The behavior of your board on a wave has to be felt. And it cannot be explained.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 54

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/18/2006 7:30:04 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

What a great metaphor, Sinergy. I can see how an aesthetic, intuitive approach where you take your time and make your presence felt in many ways works very well.

Thanks for sharing that image.

sp

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 55

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/18/2006 7:45:19 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

But the result was that I felt I had failed, and that he expected me to continue to do so (since he said I would need to be punished in the future in order to learn).

I'm glad you worked this out. If someone said that to me, I would give up trying, believing that it didn't matter how well I did, he'd be looking for an excuse to hurt me. I really don't take being set up to fail at all well. It causes me to distrust and back away, a long way off.

Basically if he's a sadist, and you've agreed to pain play, then he shouldn't make excuses to indulge himself. Physical sadism is one thing, but I will not tolerate emotional sadism. YMMV

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 56

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/18/2006 8:17:56 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

Yesterday I received a long email from him detailing what he expects from a slave (me) in terms of personal service and giving some examples of how he might correct me if I forget to do these things. The examples he gave were that if I lit my cigarette first instead of his, he would take it away from me so that I would learn that his pleasure and service to him comes first. Same thing if I got myself a drink without seeing to his needs first. I'd have my drink taken away.

The expectations/rules he laid out seem very reasonable to me--things such as kneeling by the bed and waiting for him to ask me to join him, instead of getting in bed first and washing him and providing him with a towel when we shower together.

He does have a sadistic bent and pain play is part of our dynamic, but I think that he needs no excuse or reason to indulge in that with me and plans to use punishment (not necessarily corporal) as a last resort when I have agreed to a rule but for whatever reason am not following it. When he told me that he thinks these changes will be hard for me, he was saying that it will take a change in my mindset to learn to put him and his needs first at all times.

So I think we've sorted things out and are on the same page, and now I will look forward to when we are able to spend more time in person learning and growing together.

sp

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 57

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/18/2006 8:36:53 AM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure
The examples he gave were that if I lit my cigarette first instead of his, he would take it away from me so that I would learn that his pleasure and service to him comes first. Same thing if I got myself a drink without seeing to his needs first. I'd have my drink taken away.

Sounds pretty much as expected, from what you'd posted before. i like His approach and it looks like you've got a great handle on what's ahead for you. woo-hoo! Sounds like fun.

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 58

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/18/2006 8:39:53 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

mavis,

I smiled when I read that part of his email (about consequences for lighting my own cig first) because you'd used that exact same example and he hasn't read this thread yet, though plans to soon. :)

sp

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 59

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