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Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 9:23:51 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

I am under consideration by a wonderful, experienced Master who is firm but loving. We've been talking since May and recently spent several days together which convinced us both that we want to move to 'the next step'--a longer visit (several weeks or months), to work towards a committed, 24/7 relationship. I really do trust him, and want to allow him to shape me into what he desires.

Here's the problem I've been having, though. Before he left, he told me that there are many things I will need to learn in order to serve him well, and that he thinks it will be hard for me, and that he will have to punish me sometimes to train me.

I'm just having such a hard time understanding and accepting this, probably because I am much more geared to pleasing and obeying and punishment means that I have failed to do so. It also is probably related to how I was punished as a child--always beaten in anger, and verbally abused with so much shame and blame.

We talked for a long time about this last night, and he understood more of my fear and hesitations. He said that when he uses the word, he's speaking of loving correction of things we've both agreed upon to help me grow. He suggested I read more about punishment in an M/s sense and he assured me that he would never punish in anger or for things that I didn't know about in advance and agree to do or not do. He also said that he would share more with me of what he expects and desires so that I can be comfortable with knowing that I am willing to move in that direction.

So my question is this--how do you deal with the issue of punishment in your relationship (if that's a dynamic with which you engage), and what suggestions would you have for someone like me who is very new to the lifestyle and wanting to be able to embrace positive change without feeling like a failure as I learn.

Thanks so much,
sp

Post #: 1

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 9:34:44 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_611292/mpage_2/key_punishment/tm.htm#611778
Punishment is Deceptive

http://www.collarchat.com/m_597685/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#597689
Talking Vs Corporal Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_572243/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#572280
Question for female subs on punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_18608/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#18608
Punishment and Discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_74162/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#74162
Training? Punishment?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_84734/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#84734
Punishment vs Play

http://www.collarchat.com/m_146151/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#146151
What is the difference between punishment and discipline?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_374557/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#374557
Testing, being broken, regular punishment, etc, etc....

http://www.collarchat.com/m_523257/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#523257
Discipline & Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_495126/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#495126
On punishment

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 2

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 9:34:59 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

I'm not so big on punishment in my own relationships. My relationships have always been with adults whom I have determined are able to comprehend my instructions and expectations. I'm willing to help them if my instructions are unclear, and even to provide some element of motivation (often times, understanding the necessity of their contribution to the continued health of our relationship is motivation enough).

If despite our mutual best efforts, she's unable to consistently live up to my expectations for her, then we're unsuitable for one another and it's time to part ways. Threat of punishment will not change that fact, and only prolong an incompatible relationship.

I won't claim to have never used something akin to punishment (though I do not believe in the use of corporal punishment... it's more what I like to term the natural outcome of her actions), but I think it's safe to say that it has always been an exceptional rareity in my relationships.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/16/2006 9:37:29 AM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

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Post #: 3

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 9:46:08 AM

ClassAct2006

Posts: 318
Joined: 4/12/2006
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I'm not into it. By all means less someone dress up playing around as punishment but if I want to please someone and I get it wrong it's probably his fault for not communicating right and then you talk about it. Punishment doesn't work on children or adults in my view and there are always other ways to deal with it. I'm not saying I'd never accept it in a D/S relationship but it's something I always quiz men about

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 4

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 9:47:32 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

Thanks for the links, LA. I will do some reading.

Rover, that's what's confusing to me about this. If I am in a relationship with a dominant, my mindset is to please and obey him in all things. I don't 'brat' to get attention or punishment and I'm still learning to be able to handle more pain in a play setting.

In my training relationship, which was 24/7 for three months, I was only punished twice, and only once was it corporal--when I had done something that was clearly way out of bounds and rather than end the relationship, he punished me (my first caning) to teach me a hard lesson which I never will forget. It was a horrible experience, but it ended well when he was able to comfort me and we put the past behind us and moved on.

I agree that if I were constantly disobeying, then something is wrong and the relationship is not working. That's not the kind of relationship I want at all. I want to serve out of love and devotion and not fear.

sp

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 5

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 9:54:10 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassAct2006

I'm not into it. By all means less someone dress up playing around as punishment but if I want to please someone and I get it wrong it's probably his fault for not communicating right and then you talk about it. Punishment doesn't work on children or adults in my view and there are always other ways to deal with it. I'm not saying I'd never accept it in a D/S relationship but it's something I always quiz men about

That was the other thing that confused me. He hadn't really communicated to me what he expected from a slave or told me that I was doing/not doing things that bothered him. So when he told me later that I had a lot to learn (like always lighting his cigarette before mine, waiting to sit down until he does and waiting to eat until he does), and then said that he would have to train and punish me for me to learn those things, I was distraut. If I had known what he wanted or realized that I was making mistakes, I would have corrected them, but being told after the fact and then having punishment brought into the solution was very upsetting.

(in reply to ClassAct2006)

Post #: 6

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 9:55:12 AM

gypsylee

Posts: 293
Joined: 9/18/2006
From: Melbournia, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

...I really do trust him, and want to allow him to shape me into what he desires.

Here's the problem I've been having, though. Before he left, he told me that there are many things I will need to learn in order to serve him well, and that he thinks it will be hard for me, and that he will have to punish me sometimes to train me.

...So my question is this--how do you deal with the issue of punishment in your relationship (if that's a dynamic with which you engage), and what suggestions would you have for someone like me who is very new to the lifestyle and wanting to be able to embrace positive change without feeling like a failure as I learn.

basically you have to take a leap of faith. you say that you trust him but the level of trust needed in a D/s r'ship is huge. i was punished once (in a non-physical way) which had had me crying, shaking, begging and thinking, 'omg... omg... omg...' but i did it. and the praise i recieved, for just doing it, was immense. it's kind of a, 'feel the fear but do it anyway' thing. and you feel awesome afterwards.

_____________________________

You're one twisted fuck... Nup, I'm just an ordinary girl with nothin' to lose.

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 7

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 9:55:50 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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sp, often times the Dominant equivalent of "bratting" is punishing. In my view, it's all a form of manipulative role play.

John

P.S. - And in the example you used in your reply to Class Act, no one can expect you (or anyone else) to be a mind reader and it's not as if all Dominants will expect the same behavior from all submissives (we don't all sing from the same hymnal). But to have effectively communicated his expectations to you would have removed the contrived punishment. Either that or he's one of those... ahem... people that thinks all submissives should be alike. Choose your poison.

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/16/2006 10:00:46 AM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 8

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:10:43 AM

gypsylee

Posts: 293
Joined: 9/18/2006
From: Melbournia, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I'm not so big on punishment in my own relationships. My relationships have always been with adults whom I have determined are able to comprehend my instructions and expectations...

Rover, i understand that your relationships are different to mine and that's completely reasonable. but are you suggesting that as a submissive who does get punished i am not an adult who is able to comprehend my D's instructions and expectations?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

sp, often times the Dominant equivalent of "bratting" is punishing. In my view, it's all a form of manipulative role play.

also interested on hearing an expantion on this viewpoint.

_____________________________

You're one twisted fuck... Nup, I'm just an ordinary girl with nothin' to lose.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 9

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:10:51 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsylee

basically you have to take a leap of faith. you say that you trust him but the level of trust needed in a D/s r'ship is huge. i was punished once (in a non-physical way) which had had me crying, shaking, begging and thinking, 'omg... omg... omg...' but i did it. and the praise i recieved, for just doing it, was immense. it's kind of a, 'feel the fear but do it anyway' thing. and you feel awesome afterwards.

I do understand what you are saying, gypsy, and I experienced much the same feelings when I was (physically) punished that one time. The pain was much more than I ever imagined I could handle and yet I took it all and never once considered stopping it, even though I wasn't bound (just gagged). When he praised me for my willingness and obedience I saw it in a different way and it motivated me to be able to handle more pain in a non-punishment setting.

And you're right about trust and how it grows over time and experience. I know him to be reasonable and fair but I also know that he has a sadistic bent in the sense that he wants to train me to be more masochistic and grow to enjoy regular and more intense sessions.

That's a different dynamic, though, and one that I do want to explore. I am just so much more motivated by the reward of knowing that I pleased him than by fearing consequences.

(in reply to gypsylee)

Post #: 10

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:13:00 AM

RedSavageSlave

Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
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If you are so into pleasing and obeying.. why are you so wigged out about the punishment thing? Sounds to me like you are not going to need to be punished as much as it seems to be making you crazy thinking you would be. If you do trust him.. then trust him..

All he said was there needs to be training..I dont really see the problem. I think you are perhaps working it up into your own mind that it is going to be something huge and horrendous.

_____________________________

My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 11

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:24:48 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

sp, often times the Dominant equivalent of "bratting" is punishing. In my view, it's all a form of manipulative role play.

John

P.S. - And in the example you used in your reply to Class Act, no one can expect you (or anyone else) to be a mind reader and it's not as if all Dominants will expect the same behavior from all submissives (we don't all sing from the same hymnal). But to have effectively communicated his expectations to you would have removed the contrived punishment. Either that or he's one of those... ahem... people that thinks all submissives should be alike. Choose your poison.

I think he realizes that he handled things poorly, particularly in light of my mindset and history. He apologized for it last night and agreed that he would clearly communicate his expectations in the future and make sure that I understand and am comfortable with them. Since we were just meeting and getting to know each other he didn't give me any instruction, prefering to see how I acted 'naturally' and then determining from there what needed to be changed. But the result was that I felt I had failed, and that he expected me to continue to do so (since he said I would need to be punished in the future in order to learn).

We've agreed to put this behind us and start fresh, with expectations clearly communicated in advance, and mistakes pointed out when they happen so that they can be corrected.

I do want to feel his authority and discipline in my life, but I sincerely hope that this can be accomplished in a positive way instead of with fear/punishment.

sp

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 12

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:27:46 AM

gypsylee

Posts: 293
Joined: 9/18/2006
From: Melbournia, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

...I am just so much more motivated by the reward of knowing that I pleased him than by fearing consequences.

well wanting to please is certainly a sub trait. but quite often we take it to the extreme because we are constantly seeking praise. there was an interesting thread recently from a sub who was finding it hard to give up her level of servitude and she'd come to realise that by always serving her Dom she was actually holding onto a degree of control. an example of topping from the bottom.

sometimes Doms can sound really harsh and you think, 'no way can i live up to all his expectations!'. but they're not God! ;) and punishment takes effort so they're not gonna do it at the drop of a hat...

i once asked my D, 'if i turned around tomorrow and said i want nothing to do with bdsm, would you still wanna be with me?' and He said, 'yes' (and we didn't meet as D/s) and that was just the biggest relief. so maybe you should ask yours the same thing?

_____________________________

You're one twisted fuck... Nup, I'm just an ordinary girl with nothin' to lose.

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 13

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:30:05 AM

gypsylee

Posts: 293
Joined: 9/18/2006
From: Melbournia, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave

If you are so into pleasing and obeying.. why are you so wigged out about the punishment thing? Sounds to me like you are not going to need to be punished as much as it seems to be making you crazy thinking you would be. If you do trust him.. then trust him..

All he said was there needs to be training..I dont really see the problem. I think you are perhaps working it up into your own mind that it is going to be something huge and horrendous.

hehe. yup. i can totally relate. sub neurotica :)

_____________________________

You're one twisted fuck... Nup, I'm just an ordinary girl with nothin' to lose.

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 14

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:32:32 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave

If you are so into pleasing and obeying.. why are you so wigged out about the punishment thing? Sounds to me like you are not going to need to be punished as much as it seems to be making you crazy thinking you would be. If you do trust him.. then trust him..

All he said was there needs to be training..I dont really see the problem. I think you are perhaps working it up into your own mind that it is going to be something huge and horrendous.

I was wigged out at the punishment thing because in my experience, punishment was either a) a horrible rage/shame/blame-filled experience (as a child) that's taken years to get past or b)only given when I had seriously fucked up. So telling me that I would be punished triggered a lot of fear for me while in his mind it was just a natural part of an M/s relationship.

I am not afraid of training. I just clearly want to know what's expected of me so I can focus on pleasing and obeying out of love, not fear. I do trust him, and I think he understands my motivation and fears now and has a better idea of how to guide me.

sp

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 15

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:36:35 AM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
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sapphirepleasure... couple of things stand out that should make you feel much better about this...

One is, if He noted some things you hadn't done.. ie not lighting His cig first.. and is saying those are training issues.. notice He did NOt punish you for those things.   So it's a good bet, He doesn't punish without telling you the expectation first. chaulk that up to good technique so far.   Amazingly enough, a lot of Doms might have corrected you on the spot and followed up with some minor "reminder" punishment.. even though you hadn't been told His goals first.

Another thing, i would go back and ask questions about the meanings He uses.   In my house, (and this may be very different from His way!) there is correction, which is just pointing out an error or His preference in something, and offering alternative ways for me to handle the situation, or directing me in what should have been done.    Punishment would be the consequences for not having taken the steps noted in correction.. something to "penalise" me to mark the lesson, etc.   that might or might not be physical.

Third,  a wise Dominant usually uses the correction type that teaches best.. and chooses punishments that sub or slave hates most.. and in many cases, that means NO corporal, because the submissive or slave enjoys spanking, etc. He might use Natural Consequence as a punative measure...  An example of NC would be.. if you lit your cig first, He would take your cig, put it out, then deny you smoking in His presence because it's been shown as something more important than tending to His needs.

Once you talk with Him and find out what He means by punishment, ask for examples of what He's used in the past... but do not forget, that would have been a different woman He was working with, and He might choose different ways of dealing with you. He probably won't use your historical fear of corporal punishment or uncontrolled anger against you. He will probably use your interest in pleasing Him to his advantage, and that's exactly as it should be. And the more Y/you get to know each O/other, the better He can find things that achieve His objectives without causing you anything but growth and higher performance standards.

(unless He's a shithead, in which case, duck n run! lol)

_____________________________

~ Mavis

none of this applies to me, i'm only playing with lables this week.

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 16

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:40:15 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

There is no punishment in my relationship, and a harsh word can tend to crush me...

I am like you, I try hard to please, and if I am displeasing it really has a tremendous affect on me. He may discipline me for behaviors he does not like, but his displeasure is punishment for me.

When I was looking for a dominant I would not respond to men that used the word "strict" or "punish" in their profiles because I figured if punishments and strictness were so important to them as a kink or relationship dynamic I was probably going to get crushed by them because I am extremely sensitive. One-size-fits-all punishment approach to Ds would not work well with me.

I would recommend that you keep communicating the way you have been to him and explain what motivates you to the behaviors he finds desireable. A heavy handed approach with some submissives can tend to make them contrary, get their back up. I think of my unmentionable, if I disciplined too harshly (and I have) or unfairly (and I have done that too as the imperfect person that I am) then he would become even more defiant. If I was fair then he may have had trouble with the discipline but sooner or later if he came to the conclusion he was wrong then he would apologize and change his behavior. It works that way for me too...

If you never fail you are not learning anything. It really does not matter what happens in my dynamic, because our style fits us, but it may not fit you. I do not understand punishment, but I do understand that others feel it clears the air and sets parameters for them, and I respect that. Only you and the person dominating you can find your personal balance.. I wish you luck and I am sure it will all work out.. he is talking about it, and that is a VERY positive thing...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 17

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:43:57 AM

sapphirepleasure

Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsylee

well wanting to please is certainly a sub trait. but quite often we take it to the extreme because we are constantly seeking praise. there was an interesting thread recently from a sub who was finding it hard to give up her level of servitude and she'd come to realise that by always serving her Dom she was actually holding onto a degree of control. an example of topping from the bottom.

sometimes Doms can sound really harsh and you think, 'no way can i live up to all his expectations!'. but they're not God! ;) and punishment takes effort so they're not gonna do it at the drop of a hat...

i once asked my D, 'if i turned around tomorrow and said i want nothing to do with bdsm, would you still wanna be with me?' and He said, 'yes' (and we didn't meet as D/s) and that was just the biggest relief. so maybe you should ask yours the same thing?

Actually, he isn't harsh or cruel, and I am not even sure yet what all he desires, but I know that he realizes that it will take time for me to learn and grow in these things. I know he's not into micromanagement, and I want to take responsibility for myself and my actions.

As far as it being BDSM or not, I know that's the dynamic we both are seeking. In the past, he had a long-term vanilla marriage and a live-in slave for five years but three and a half years ago, both the wife and the slave died within 3 months of each other. This time, he wants a life partner who is also his slave, and that's what I want, too.

The more secure I grow in his loving care for me, the more I can relax and know that I can grow to please him in all things.

sp

(in reply to gypsylee)

Post #: 18

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:43:59 AM

gypsylee

Posts: 293
Joined: 9/18/2006
From: Melbournia, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

I was wigged out at the punishment thing because in my experience, punishment was either a) a horrible rage/shame/blame-filled experience (as a child) that's taken years to get past or b)only given when I had seriously fucked up...

hmmm. typical, i go off on a tangent and forget to address the most important thing. urgh... i can feel the wannabe-pyschiatrist coming on... and it's 3.30am here... so the best thing i can come up with is that any punishment you get should be completely different to any form of punishment you recieved as a child. initially at least.

_____________________________

You're one twisted fuck... Nup, I'm just an ordinary girl with nothin' to lose.

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 19

RE: Punishment--How Do You Handle It? - 10/16/2006 10:53:04 AM

spanklette

Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline

My Daddy told me much the same thing when He began training me. He made me aware that punishment was inevitable. I was shaking in my cuffs.

Turned out, though, that He had used the awareness as a motivational tool. The whole I-know-you-can't-do-this mentality really made me more stubborn about successfully completing all of my tasks.

I've been punished/corrected twice, but it hasn't been all that dramatic. It was dramatic for me, because I had disappointed Him...but it certainly wasn't erotica fodder.

Do your best and trust him to do what he says he will. Bring all of your concerns to the table, until you're comfortable. And, maybe, take a deep breath and focus on something else for a while. When you come back to it, it might not seem as daunting.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to sapphirepleasure)

Post #: 20

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