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RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/19/2014 10:05:08 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Except the whole "being duped" is entirely a fabrication. (An elaborate strawman and ad hominem).

Joe's question was a valid question, and instead of addressing that, people are attacking Joe himself.

One could tell from the "questions" he was trying to ambush the President with,that he was just regurgitating rightist pablum...

It was presented by the lunitic fringe at the time as a huge coup for 'joe',I was interested to see what the fuss was about.....

To my pleasent surprise,the President handle 'joe' and the "question" with ease and candor....

Only a cult member could see the interchange between them as negative for President Obama...

~~~~~~~

No one attacked "joe" (fake name).....in the media nor from the Obama campaign.

We just found out that 'joe' wasn`t a plumber,wasn`t a business man,and he owed back taxes.....and was a terrible country singer.

He was just a hack,trying to play gotcha with subjects he clearly had no knowledge about....

The media did it`s job....

Oh......and asking Sarah Palin what magazines she read (oh my

) was NOT an ambush question.....though one might think so the way she caved in....

You know you cons are correct that if you could control the media,Sarah wouldn`t be known as a dumb-shit and 'joe' wouldn`t be a laughing stock....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/19/2014 10:08:28 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 21

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/19/2014 10:47:03 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

So, once again, Joe (real name), was a real person, who asked a real question, and got a real answer.

And instead of that being the topic, you want to attack Joe himself with unrelated ad hominems.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 22

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/19/2014 11:35:03 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
So, once again, Joe (real name), was a real person, who asked a real question, and got a real answer.

And instead of that being the topic, you want to attack Joe himself with unrelated ad hominems.

The guy is real, as real as the President or any of us. That is not the issue. Nor his name. Or where the name's origin. What is contested is the nature of the transaction between him and Mr. Obama. From the video, the material the man presents felt very staged and practice, rather than 'on the spur of the moment'. As we have found, this man really doesn't hold a formal education (i.e. college degree). So that eliminates 'critical thinking skills' for the most part. Asking a deeply detailed question, with specific criteria and supporting evidence is NOT something one learns 'on the street' or 'through a trade profession'. That stuff one learns through college work. Spending hours upon hours learning how to defend one's thoughts and position on a topic.

No, that guy was coached on how and what to say by others that wanted to 'trip up the black man'. I find it amusing the number of conservatives that STILL can not handle the idea that anyone regardless of their skin color can be just as intelligent/educated as any white person. The question the man gave was answered by the President. Its not an answer the conservative morons wanted, but its the best answer at the time....a truthful and honest one. If you recall when 'Joe' asked the President the question the nation was very deeply in financial hell created by the Republican/Tea Party previously. This was just a few months before the ARRA went into effect to combat the major problems of the economic slide into a second financial depression. Notice this nation never entered that situation? A recession is worlds better than a depression.

Here is the exchange:

'Joe the Plumber': "I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes 250 to 280 thousand dollars a year. Your new tax plan's going to tax me more, isn't it?"

Mr. Obama: "If you're a small business, which you would qualify, first of all, you would get a 50 percent tax credit so you'd get a cut in taxes for your health care costs. So you would actually get a tax cut on that part. If your revenue is above 250, then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that, say for 250 up — from 250 to 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you’d go from 36 to 39 percent, which is what it was under Bill Clinton. It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance at success, too… My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re gonna be better off [...] if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody."

The President answered the question very well. Tell me, what was going on in the country when this question was asked? Just list everything you know of that time.

Final question, was it conservative media that told the facts and truth about 'Joe the plumber' before the liberalis media?

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 23

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/19/2014 11:37:46 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether As we have found, this man really doesn't hold a formal education (i.e. college degree). So that eliminates 'critical thinking skills' for the most part.

This simply is absolutely false.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 24

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/19/2014 11:54:47 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joether
No, that guy was coached on how and what to say by others.......

You don't know that. Prove it.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 25

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/19/2014 1:51:38 PM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Except the whole "being duped" is entirely a fabrication. (An elaborate strawman and ad hominem).
Joe's question was a valid question, and instead of addressing that, people are attacking Joe himself.

One could tell from the "questions" he was trying to ambush the President with,that he was just regurgitating rightist pablum...
It was presented by the lunitic fringe at the time as a huge coup for 'joe',I was interested to see what the fuss was about.....
To my pleasent surprise,the President handle 'joe' and the "question" with ease and candor....
Only a cult member could see the interchange between them as negative for President Obama...
~~~~~~~
No one attacked "joe" (fake name).....in the media nor from the Obama campaign.

Samuel Joseph Wurlzelbacher is his real name. Yes, he was attacked in the media.

quote:

We just found out that 'joe' wasn`t a plumber,wasn`t a business man,and he owed back taxes.....and was a terrible country singer.
He was just a hack,trying to play gotcha with subjects he clearly had no knowledge about....
The media did it`s job....

He was hired as, and worked as, a plumber.

Any proof he wasn't a businessman?

I have already linked to the tax thing. Apparently, that's really not an issue, since you don't seem to have a problem with other tax cheats who are in actual elected positions.

Singing credentials have fuckall to do with anything.

The media reported information, true enough. The source of that information was the issue. That the information came out wasn't the issue.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 26

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/19/2014 4:25:04 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

You can`t be a plumber if you don`t have a license.... in Ohio....

I suppose it`s legal to play make pretend....in Ohio....

You can`t work under another's license either in Ohio....(cept in certain townships, not in municipalities) as 'joe' claimed.

Though I suppose there`s quite a few folks who do illegal plumbing work....but pretend to be professions...

He was a plumbers helper.....not a plumber. I know from 30 years in the trades that every plumbers helpers dream is to one day get their own license.....Never met one who lied about being licensed...

He also never had any intention of buying a plumbing business.....that lie, was a premise for his "question"

Didn`t have the money to either.....

He was lying in his question to the President....

I say.... he never was a business owner/business man....You prove he was....ANYWHERE....

'joe' owing taxes is all the proof I need that had no money to "buy a plumbing bus." as he lied about....

Oh and please save us the "what about other`s tax problems" chirp.......Beside acknowledging the charge......it looks pretty lame saying "that guy over there`s a tax cheat too"......

Just try to stay on topic....

That,....is the symbolism I`m talk`n about right there.....

More republican tears to wash down the cake we`re having and eating too...

There`s no 2nd chances at making 1st impressions..... so when it was found out he was fibbing about being a plumber....the media (us) has every right to know and be suspicious and question/look into someone.

If McGramps hadn`t of latched on to him in an effort to appeal to folks with Palin-level-intelligence....'joe'....joining a union and working for a company that his party opposed saving wouldn`t be news....Or something so bitterly contested here....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/19/2014 4:44:14 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 27

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 7:45:14 AM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
You can`t be a plumber if you don`t have a license.... in Ohio....
I suppose it`s legal to play make pretend....in Ohio....
You can`t work under another's license either in Ohio....(cept in certain townships, not in municipalities) as 'joe' claimed.
Though I suppose there`s quite a few folks who do illegal plumbing work....but pretend to be professions...
He was a plumbers helper.....not a plumber. I know from 30 years in the trades that every plumbers helpers dream is to one day get their own license.....Never met one who lied about being licensed...

Apparently, you don't understand clicking on links...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_Plumber#Plumbing_credentials

quote:

Plumbing credentials[edit]
Regarding his statement to Barack Obama about intending to buy the plumbing firm that employed him, Wurzelbacher later said that the idea of buying the company was discussed during his job interview six years prior.[10] According to MSNBC and Fox News, court records show that Wurzelbacher made $40,000 in 2006.[20] Dun & Bradstreet's report estimated that A. W. Newell Corporation, the full corporate name, had $510,000 in annual sales and eight employees.[68] As part of the background on McCain's use of "Joe the Plumber," several media outlets researched his professional plumbing credentials. One Toledo Blade article stated, "Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell’s license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work. He is also not registered to operate as a plumber in Ohio, which means he’s not a plumber." "Mr. Joseph [business manager of the local union] said Mr. Wurzelbacher could only legally work in the townships, but not in any municipality in Lucas County or elsewhere in the country."[69] Wurzelbacher has since stated that he is no longer employed at Newell.[4]

Apparently, the local union's business manager said Joe could legally work outside municipalities, but, what would he know, right?

quote:

He also never had any intention of buying a plumbing business.....that lie, was a premise for his "question"
Didn`t have the money to either.....
He was lying in his question to the President....

You have proof that he never had any intention of buying a plumbing business?

One does not have to have the money to ask questions and to plan. I wonder if the POTUS elected in 2056 already has the money to run...

quote:

I say.... he never was a business owner/business man....You prove he was....ANYWHERE....

You didn't say business owner. You did say business man. You also said he had "zero business skill." Upon request for proof you offered...

Nothing.

quote:

'joe' owing taxes is all the proof I need that had no money to "buy a plumbing bus." as he lied about....
Oh and please save us the "what about other`s tax problems" chirp.......Beside acknowledging the charge......it looks pretty lame saying "that guy over there`s a tax cheat too"......

I was on topic. You, apparently don't read what others post. Maybe you'll get it this time:
(Same link as above, just below the quoted section)

quote:

Tax controversy[edit]
ABC News reported on October 16, 2008, that there was a judgment lien against Wurzelbacher for non-payment of $1,182 in owed Ohio state income taxes dating to January 2007, but "no action has been taken against him outside of filing the lien." Barb Losie, deputy clerk of the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, said that "there is a 99 percent chance [Wurzelbacher] doesn't know about the lien, unless he did a credit report or was ready to pay his taxes."[70] While on Hannity & Colmes, Wurzelbacher stated that he was unaware of the tax lien prior to it being reported in the press.[71] The taxes were paid on November 6.[72]

It's you making some sort of assertion that not paying your taxes discredits someone. Yet, I'm sure you didn't support the same allegations regarding all the other tax cheats in DC. And, yes, it certainly does matter. Ignoring it doesn't make it any less bad.

quote:

Just try to stay on topic....

That,....is the symbolism I`m talk`n about right there.....
More republican tears to wash down the cake we`re having and eating too...
There`s no 2nd chances at making 1st impressions..... so when it was found out he was fibbing about being a plumber....the media (us) has every right to know and be suspicious and question/look into someone.
If McGramps hadn`t of latched on to him in an effort to appeal to folks with Palin-level-intelligence....'joe'....joining a union and working for a company that his party opposed saving wouldn`t be news....Or something so bitterly contested here....

McCain didn't bring Joe in to reach the Democrat voters...

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 28

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 8:07:47 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

I remember him barnstorming in PA in 09 and in WI in 11 in trucked in nutsacker anti-union rallies saying his stupid shit, and the darling of the imbecilic nutsackers where they were interfering in states rights issues.

Guess he was for the unionization of VW, maybe the nutsackers are coming around, cuz they ain't throwing him under the bus yet.....think the nutsackers are going union?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 29

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 9:08:29 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
McCain didn't bring Joe in to reach the Democrat voters...

Good job, really, isn't it?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 30

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 9:52:03 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
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Uh, wrong thread, NM.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/20/2014 10:13:25 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 31

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 12:19:00 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

Well nobody has a 'right' to work at all...if nobody hires you. The fortune 500 is no help as they have not created one net new job in in the US in over 50 years. Many don't know it but they need not even apply. (while creating an estimated 10-12 million jobs offshore)

Additionally, you had better have that 4 year degree for that entry-level, part-time, office clerk position for which I 'may' be generous enough to 'give' you $9/hr.

Plus, if I do hire you and 'give' you a job, you had better treat that job as if you are damn lucky I even 'gave' it to you. Oh and be prepared that if you do 'take' this job, that as soon as I deem it necessary to increase your pay in order for me to continue to profit off of your job and the work I 'gave' you...you could make enough to pay anywhere from 20% to 39% in federal income tax, the deductions from which will later in your life, when paid back to you in soc., sec. and medicare...I will call a socialist entitlement and a 're-distribution' of 'my' wealth. Oh and now thanks to what is called 'Obamacare', there will be no health insurance provision included for you on this job...you are on your own. ( not to worry, I understand that other 'working' Americans that were 'given' a job will pay the taxes necessary to subsidize those health care profits, so required to provide you health care and a shortened life of 3-4 years shorter than other western countries, so they will 'give' you help)

The great and glorious free market [sic] entrusts its success on me continuing to 'earn' million$ (and from the golf course) by buying and selling things and pay 15% in fed. tax. So make sure you are in the office no later than 8 AM (or I will 'take' that job I 'gave' you, away from you and 'give' it to somebody else) and leave at about 6 PM to keep the job I 'gave' you and put in those 50-60 hours a week so I can sleep in and spend time with my family and have the afternoon for the back-9 if I choose to play golf rather than be spending all of my million$ that 'I' earned on my necessities such as say a new Mercedes or diamond necklace for my fickle SO's. Do you hear me now ?

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/20/2014 12:45:51 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 32

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 6:17:52 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joether
No, that guy was coached on how and what to say by others.......

You don't know that. Prove it.

You do know.....don`t you.....that "joe the plumber" was part of the McGramps/palin campaign.....yes?

What a fuck`n clown.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCkGEHQVHK4

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/20/2014 6:18:17 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 33

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 6:19:50 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
McCain didn't bring Joe in to reach the Democrat voters...

Good job, really, isn't it?

He didn`t bring in sarah to drive away women and indies either......

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 34

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 6:32:44 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joether
No, that guy was coached on how and what to say by others.......

You don't know that. Prove it.

Every detail of the question is a lie so that pretty well proves it to most people.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 35

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 7:15:40 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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Having read through this thread, I'm glad you brought this story to my attention. If you are going to plant someone to be a FACE for an issue, why not select someone with the surrounding facts in place?

Is there any chance the guy was just a liar on his own who gained favor with the conservatives - and who thereafter became a part of the campaign?

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/20/2014 7:16:22 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 36

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/20/2014 8:06:48 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Having read through this thread, I'm glad you brought this story to my attention. If you are going to plant someone to be a FACE for an issue, why not select someone with the surrounding facts in place?

Is there any chance the guy was just a liar on his own who gained favor with the conservatives - and who thereafter became a part of the campaign?

Thank you

I`m getting a lot of cons irked on FG with this meme.....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 37

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/21/2014 2:02:11 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether As we have found, this man really doesn't hold a formal education (i.e. college degree). So that eliminates 'critical thinking skills' for the most part.

This simply is absolutely false.

One is said to have a formal education with a COLLEGE DEGREE. Typically that means a BS or BA degree at the minimal. And one does not learn the actual critical thinking skills from the professors but rather learn through observation to develop the argument with supporting evidence. Its when college students gather up to discuss a topic that the real critical thinking comes out. Rather than be seen as an ignorant fuck, one learns quickly to develop their view, give supporting material and then give the conclusion.

Which is why many conservatives hate the President when he gives a speech. He talks like a professor. He establishes his point of discussion, gives supporting information and then gives a conclusion to it. Which is exactly what he gave to 'joe'. People like 'joe' want and crave a simpleton answer to questions. Unfortunately things are pretty complicated and complex in this day and age. An when explaining how a proposed concept in legal terms could be developed, one has to handle many different angles all at once. So the answer you observe from the President was both informed and 'on the spur of the moment'.

'Joe' question however, was staged to look authentic. The question just came across directly and without pondering or forming the complete sentence structure before giving. No, what Joe asked was a question that was rehearsed. When ACTUAL journalists (not those pseudo reporters on FOX News) investigated, they found the man really was never in a position to make the purchase. Now why would an individual ask a person running for office a tax question, when the nature of the subject matter doesn't even apply to them directly? Does that not sound just the least bit curious of the motivation?

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 38

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/21/2014 2:10:42 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joether
No, that guy was coached on how and what to say by others.......

You don't know that. Prove it.

As the journalists found out, the guy never had the capital to make such a purchase to begin with. So why ask a very specific question, on a subject matter, that does not even apply to you, when you have a serious candidate (if not likely next President) for the White House standing before you and their attention onto you? Would it not be more logical to ask a question that effects you in a more direct manner than a hypothetical question that doesn't even apply to you?

The only two reasons to ask such a question as 'Joe' did:

1 ) Trying to get a 'gotcha moment' for a political campaign

2 ) Your asking for someone else that wishes either to remain anonymous or is REALLY shy.

Well so far there is no evidence supporting concept #2, and shortly after that exchange, the man shows up supporting the McCain/Palin ticket. Must be a coincidence......right?

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 39

RE: Joe "the plumber" lands union job.ha ha c... - 2/21/2014 4:47:37 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether As we have found, this man really doesn't hold a formal education (i.e. college degree). So that eliminates 'critical thinking skills' for the most part.

This simply is absolutely false.

One is said to have a formal education with a COLLEGE DEGREE. Typically that means a BS or BA degree at the minimal. And one does not learn the actual critical thinking skills from the professors but rather learn through observation to develop the argument with supporting evidence. Its when college students gather up to discuss a topic that the real critical thinking comes out. Rather than be seen as an ignorant fuck, one learns quickly to develop their view, give supporting material and then give the conclusion.

I mostly agree with you, although I don't think that it's necessarily true that just because someone doesn't have a college degree, they lack critical thinking skills. I've also found the opposite to be true on many occasions, where people with college degrees seem to lack critical thinking skills.

quote:

'Joe' question however, was staged to look authentic. The question just came across directly and without pondering or forming the complete sentence structure before giving. No, what Joe asked was a question that was rehearsed. When ACTUAL journalists (not those pseudo reporters on FOX News) investigated, they found the man really was never in a position to make the purchase. Now why would an individual ask a person running for office a tax question, when the nature of the subject matter doesn't even apply to them directly? Does that not sound just the least bit curious of the motivation?

I probably would have taken a different approach myself. It's not unheard of for people to ask questions of politicians about subjects that don't apply to them directly. Although I wouldn't really look at the messenger as much as the message itself. Even if he was in a position to make the purchase, then that would mean he's living well enough to have a decent life - even if he has to pay a few extra dollars in taxes. So, why is that such a big deal anyway, and why wouldn't the media focus on that issue as opposed to who "Joe the Plumber" is?

I don't really care about "Joe the Plumber" or who he is, but the media made a big thing about the guy. I don't know that the event was staged, as there are plenty of "real" business owners who ask the same question and address the same issues.

What I never could understand is why this is such a be-all and end-all issue for some factions. All my life, I've encountered people living in nice homes, living off the fat of the land, enjoying every bit of the good life and all that this country has to offer - and yet they spend the majority of their time and political capital endlessly complaining about having to pay a percentage in taxes. They're living high on the hog, yet talk about taxes as if they're Oliver Twist asking for more gruel. That's the real lie here that even the ACTUAL journalists have yet to fully address. In that context, "Joe the Plumber" is just a red herring.

< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 2/21/2014 4:49:36 AM >

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 40

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