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RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/3/2013 7:20:03 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Warming != acidification. Let me know when some legit marine biologist says there is no need to worry about acidification.

In May 2004, SCOR and UNESCO-IOC co-hosted an international symposium on the oceans. Following up on that, the ocean-acidification.net website was launched as a central source of information for ocean scientists on research activities in this area. It sets forth the current state of our knowledge as follows...

it is not clear if ecosystems have the ability to adapt to these changes. Effects of ocean acidification on organisms and ecosystems are still poorly understood

Nevertheless, acidification does raise legitimate questions and concerns...

Here, we show that a marine metazoan (i.e. Platynereis dumerilii) was able to adapt to chronic and elevated levels of pCO2 ~Royal Society

We show that periphyton communities altered significantly as CO2 concentrations increased. CO2 enrichment caused significant increases in chlorophyll a concentrations and in diatom abundance although we did not detect any changes in cyanobacteria. ~Marine Biology

No effect on hatching, survival, development, and otolith size was found at any stage in the development of Baltic cod. Field data show that in the Bornholm Basin, the main spawning site of eastern Baltic cod, in situ levels of pCO2 are already at levels of 1,100 µatm with a pH of 7.2, mainly due to high eutrophication supporting microbial activity and permanent stratification with little water exchange. Our data show that the eggs and early larval stages of Baltic cod seem to be robust to even high levels of OA (3,200 µatm), indicating an adaptational response to CO2. ~Marine Biology

Here, we tested the impact of long-term (up to 16 months) and trans-life-cycle (adult, embryo/larvae and juvenile) exposure to elevated pCO2 (1,200 µatm, compared to control 400 µatm) on the green sea urchin Strongylocentrotus droebachiensis... Our results support the contention that adult sea urchins can acclimate to moderately elevated pCO2 in a matter of a few months and that carry-over effects can exacerbate the negative impact of ocean acidification on larvae and juveniles. ~Marine Biology

Hysterical claims that our oceans face imminent and mortal danger from acidification would appear to be exaggerated.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/3/2013 7:44:56 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/3/2013 8:15:20 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Always funny watching a denier pick and choose science that fits their faith and then expecting everyone else to ignore the established facts.

Also why do you always think no one checks your sources?
from the green sea urchin study
quote:

Moreover, adult pre-exposure for 4 months to elevated pCO2 had a direct negative impact on subsequent larval settlement success. Five to nine times fewer offspring reached the juvenile stage in cultures using gametes collected from adults previously acclimated to high pCO2 for 4 months. However, no difference in larval survival was observed when adults were pre-exposed for 16 months to elevated pCO2. pCO2 had no direct negative impact on juvenile survival except when both larvae and juveniles were raised in elevated pCO2. These negative effects on settlement success and juvenile survival can be attributed to carry-over effects from adults to larvae and from larvae to juveniles.

IOW the green sea urchin faces extinction as the ocean's acidify.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/3/2013 8:23:55 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

IOW the green sea urchin faces extinction as the ocean's acidify.

Well that's a tough argument to beat. If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that the clip doesn't say what it actually says, that in fact it says what you claim it says, even though it doesn't. Let me think about this one, I'll get back to you.

Feel free to hold your breath.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/3/2013 8:31:47 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/3/2013 8:26:30 PM   
asyouwish72


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quote:

For example, this piece, showing the effects in the oceans in the 20's and 30's exceeding that of today.

You know.. pre global warming


With all due respect... I don't think you have any idea how science works. This study is suggesting that sea surface temperatures *may* have been warmer in the NW Atlantic in the 1920s and 1930s (assuming that algal growth band widths are solely determined by temperature, a dubious assumption). That's one measure in one region. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the overall global picture. Rather, it suggests something is incomplete in our understanding of Atlantic circulation and the dynamics of the Gulf Stream.

That's an interesting finding, as far as it goes (particularly given that anecdotal evidence suggests more landfalling hurricanes in N America at that time than at present), but you're making a giant logical leap that the authors never did, and never would: that trends from any single location can give us a picture of the global average.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/3/2013 8:49:53 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Heavens what makes you think my comments were directed because of *one* study.

Talk about logical leaps.

It is not necessary for me to advance a theory about what is happening. In fact I do not. All I must do is continue to point out what the failings of AGW are.

And front and center in AGW's failings are:

a). In ability to explain how these same temperature profiles occured many many times before. Why should one assume that AGW is the cause, when it wasn't before.
b). AGW has predicted the future - and failed.
c). AGW doesn't adequately describe aersol forcing, ionizing radiation, CO2 migration or a whole host of other factors. AGW is there fore.. wrong.


(in reply to asyouwish72)
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RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 2:46:24 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

IOW the green sea urchin faces extinction as the ocean's acidify.

Well that's a tough argument to beat. If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that the clip doesn't say what it actually says, that in fact it says what you claim it says, even though it doesn't. Let me think about this one, I'll get back to you.

Feel free to hold your breath.

K.



Try again
quote:

pCO2 had no direct negative impact on juvenile survival except when both larvae and juveniles were raised in elevated pCO2. These negative effects on settlement success and juvenile survival can be attributed to carry-over effects from adults to larvae and from larvae to juveniles.

WTF do you think that means? It means juveniles and larva do not survive at an acceptable rate in acidified sea water.

Let me know which plain English word you fail to understand.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 3:05:35 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

WTF do you think that means? It means juveniles and larva do not survive at an acceptable rate in acidified sea water.

Well I have several observations here. The first is that the experimental condition was three times the baseline. That strikes me as extreme. But even so, what were the findings?

Female fecundity was decreased 4.5-fold when acclimated to elevated pCO2 for 4 months during reproductive conditioning, while no difference was observed in females acclimated for 16 months...

And again...

Five to nine times fewer offspring reached the juvenile stage in cultures using gametes collected from adults previously acclimated to high pCO2 for 4 months. However, no difference in larval survival was observed when adults were pre-exposed for 16 months to elevated pCO2..

That makes it pretty clear that even under extreme conditions we're not talking about an extinction level event, despite your continued insistence to the contrary.

It's not clear to me what he means when he says, "pCO2 had no direct negative impact on juvenile survival except when both larvae and juveniles were raised in elevated pCO2." Were these larvae and juveniles of non-acclimated progenitors? Does he mean when advanced juveniles and larvae are put together? I don't know, and neither do you, but there is no room for doubt about the meaning of the statements quoted above.

Another observation I'll make is that you ignored the findings of the other studies, and also the statement with which I opened the post setting forth our current state of knowledge.

An additional observation I'll make is that any time someone presents research that raises questions about the conclusions being drawn, the "faithful" (if the shoe fits) act like it's a black and white issue and anyone who doesn't agree with them is a "denier" of Holy Truth. That's not science, that's Sunday morning television.

My position is that there is too much we don't in fact actually know, and evidence that raises some serious questions about the hysterical pronouncements of doom we're being handed.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/4/2013 3:58:04 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 9:37:12 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		It means as it clearly says that larva and juveniles reared in normal sea water born from individuals that had been in elevated levels of pCO2 for extended periods did fine and that larva and juveniles reared in high pCO2 sea water died at higher levels than is normal for the species.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 10:50:07 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


An additional observation I'll make is that any time someone presents research that raises questions about the conclusions being drawn, the "faithful" (if the shoe fits) act like it's a black and white issue and anyone who doesn't agree with them is a "denier" of Holy Truth. That's not science, that's Sunday morning television.
When there are thousands of studies showing that tobacco causes lung cancer, and you jump up and down and shout that you've found a study forty years ago funded by Marlboro which proves that smoking is actually good for you, there are some perfectly good reasons why people who respect science are not going to be converted right away to your point of view. If your belief is strong enough, you may not understand those reasons and assume they are simply blindly faithful, and no amount of argument will persuade you otherwise.
quote:


My position is that there is too much we don't in fact actually know, and evidence that raises some serious questions about the hysterical pronouncements of doom we're being handed.

And hundreds of thousands of people who study these subjects for a living, and who have been viewing the research findings as they came in for the last fifty years, reckon that there is in fact more than enough that they factually know to form hard conclusions. But you're free to state your position, unlike the scientists under the Bush government who were fired for refusing to deny AGW.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 2:23:22 PM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline 		And just to give an impression of the intellectual level of the debate, I just had this offering in my CollarMe mailbox:
quote:

From:
CruelNUnsual



Dated:
10/4/13 9:34 PM



hundreds of thousands of people who study these subjects for a living



Congrats. For this and other asinine posts you have been awarded "Most Ignorant New P&R Poster-2013" award.



Keep up the good work.
Why over there, I can only guess: someone like that would surely want the whole forum to see the brilliance of his wit. But his profile says "Im an accomplished purveyor of fear play" (but not, apparently, of apostrophes,) so perhaps the fact that he can find me over on the other side is meant to frighten me.

Still, thank you for your encouragement, C&U, I will indeed keep up the good work.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 2:26:47 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Leo, you have cmail.

_____________________________

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(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 3:52:44 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

When there are thousands of studies showing that tobacco causes lung cancer, and you jump up and down and shout that you've found a study forty years ago funded by Marlboro which proves that smoking is actually good for you, there are some perfectly good reasons why people who respect science are not going to be converted right away to your point of view.

Descending to misrepresentation in order to defend your position is a confession of intellectual dishonesty.

K.

(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 3:56:57 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

When there are thousands of studies showing that tobacco causes lung cancer, and you jump up and down and shout that you've found a study forty years ago funded by Marlboro which proves that smoking is actually good for you, there are some perfectly good reasons why people who respect science are not going to be converted right away to your point of view.

Descending to misrepresentation in order to defend your position is a confession of intellectual dishonesty.

K.

What's the issue? Tobacco denialism and creationism not only provide many of the leading "experts" for climate change denialism the tactics are drawn from those two groups as well.

For instance the long list of signatories of people who "doubt" the science, the guys in unrelated fields who suddenly become "experts" after receiving funds from the companies etc.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/4/2013 5:08:50 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/03/ocean-acidification-carbon-dioxide-emissions-levels

I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Do they already have a playlist of talking points ready (they were sampling the wrong bits of the sea, the record of acidity isn't accurate, coral dies all the time for natural reasons... you know the kind of thing,) or will they simply reckon that any organisation with "International" in its name is ipso facto an arm of the World Government conspiracy?



Leonine, I have no problem with that, they can say or do anything they want as long as it doesn't involve one penny of Taxpayer dollars.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to leonine)
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RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/7/2013 2:11:10 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

When there are thousands of studies showing that tobacco causes lung cancer, and you jump up and down and shout that you've found a study forty years ago funded by Marlboro which proves that smoking is actually good for you, there are some perfectly good reasons why people who respect science are not going to be converted right away to your point of view.

Descending to misrepresentation in order to defend your position is a confession of intellectual dishonesty.

K.

As Granny Weatherwax said, it's one of them metty-for things. I was trying to give an example outside the current topic to make my meaning clearer. Sorry if it was confusing.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/7/2013 2:13:26 AM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/03/ocean-acidification-carbon-dioxide-emissions-levels

I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Do they already have a playlist of talking points ready (they were sampling the wrong bits of the sea, the record of acidity isn't accurate, coral dies all the time for natural reasons... you know the kind of thing,) or will they simply reckon that any organisation with "International" in its name is ipso facto an arm of the World Government conspiracy?



Leonine, I have no problem with that, they can say or do anything they want as long as it doesn't involve one penny of Taxpayer dollars.

I could answer your better if I were sure you were joking.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/7/2013 2:51:40 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/03/ocean-acidification-carbon-dioxide-emissions-levels

I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Do they already have a playlist of talking points ready (they were sampling the wrong bits of the sea, the record of acidity isn't accurate, coral dies all the time for natural reasons... you know the kind of thing,) or will they simply reckon that any organisation with "International" in its name is ipso facto an arm of the World Government conspiracy?



Leonine, I have no problem with that, they can say or do anything they want as long as it doesn't involve one penny of Taxpayer dollars.

I could answer your better if I were sure you were joking.

He's not.

(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/7/2013 3:40:18 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

When there are thousands of studies showing that tobacco causes lung cancer, and you jump up and down and shout that you've found a study forty years ago funded by Marlboro which proves that smoking is actually good for you, there are some perfectly good reasons why people who respect science are not going to be converted right away to your point of view.

Descending to misrepresentation in order to defend your position is a confession of intellectual dishonesty.

As Granny Weatherwax said, it's one of them metty-for things. I was trying to give an example outside the current topic to make my meaning clearer. Sorry if it was confusing.

What you posted was a failed analogy, not a metaphor. Sorry if you don't know the difference.

K.

(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/7/2013 1:25:46 PM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/03/ocean-acidification-carbon-dioxide-emissions-levels

I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Do they already have a playlist of talking points ready (they were sampling the wrong bits of the sea, the record of acidity isn't accurate, coral dies all the time for natural reasons... you know the kind of thing,) or will they simply reckon that any organisation with "International" in its name is ipso facto an arm of the World Government conspiracy?



Leonine, I have no problem with that, they can say or do anything they want as long as it doesn't involve one penny of Taxpayer dollars.

I could answer your better if I were sure you were joking.

He's not.

He genuinely believes that doing nothing about climate change won't cost the US anything? Ever?

I'm horribly afraid you're right, and that pretty much sums up the problem.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy - 10/7/2013 4:20:57 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

He genuinely believes that doing nothing about climate change won't cost the US anything? Ever?

I'm horribly afraid you're right, and that pretty much sums up the problem.

The poster in question has consistently posted his belief that everyone concerned with climate change is either crazy, stupid or part of a massive communist/socialist/fascist conspiracy.

(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 40
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