Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy

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leonine -> Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 5:04:47 AM)
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/03/ocean-acidification-carbon-dioxide-emissions-levels I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Do they already have a playlist of talking points ready (they were sampling the wrong bits of the sea, the record of acidity isn't accurate, coral dies all the time for natural reasons... you know the kind of thing,) or will they simply reckon that any organisation with "International" in its name is ipso facto an arm of the World Government conspiracy?

Kirata -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 7:04:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leonine I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Here we go with the old anybody who disagrees is a "denier" crap. Gotta love it. Okay, so here we have this guy whining about plankton. Serious business, no argument there. In 2010, Boyce et al reported that phytoplankton had been declining over most of the last century. This trend is particularly well documented in the Northern Hemisphere and after 1950, and would translate into a decline of approximately 40% since 1950. Holy shit, we gotta start shooting people who drive SUVs! Then they got taken to school... Boyce et al compiled a chlorophyll index by combining in situ chlorophyll and Secchi disk depth measurements that spanned a more than 100-year time period and showed a decrease in marine phytoplankton biomass of approximately 1% of the global median per year over the past century. Eight decades of data on phytoplankton biomass collected in the North Atlantic by the Continuous Plankton Recorder (CPR) survey, however, show an increase in an index of chlorophyll (Phytoplankton Colour Index) in both the Northeast and Northwest Atlantic basins, and other long-term time series, including the Hawaii Ocean Time-series (HOT), the Bermuda Atlantic Time Series (BATS) and the California Cooperative Oceanic Fisheries Investigations (CalCOFI) also indicate increased phytoplankton biomass over the last 20–50 years. These findings, which were not discussed by Boyce et al, are not in accordance with their conclusions and illustrate the importance of using consistent observations when estimating long-term trends. ~Nature Oops. Busted. And oops again: NASA satellites may have missed more than 50% of the phytoplankton in the Southern Ocean But hey, nevermind. No real science here folks, just denier shit. Move along now. K.

DomKen -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 7:38:31 AM)
Because every time any scientists gets his data wrong or some other scientist comes up with a better measurement it invalidates that whole field. Just ask a denier. As to ocean acidification, we're screwed and the deniers can only do what they always do, deny.

Phydeaux -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 9:06:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Because every time any scientists gets his data wrong or some other scientist comes up with a better measurement it invalidates that whole field. Just ask a denier. As to ocean acidification, we're screwed and the deniers can only do what they always do, deny. Yep thats real science there...

Phydeaux -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 9:08:14 AM)
But here's a link to thousands of peer reviewed articles contesting tenets of AGW. http://nipccreport.com/ So much for.. no dissenting science... For example, this piece, showing the effects in the oceans in the 20's and 30's exceeding that of today. You know.. pre global warming http://www.nipccreport.org/articles/2011/jun/14jun2011a2.html

leonine -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 9:40:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux But here's a link to thousands of peer reviewed articles contesting tenets of AGW. http://nipccreport.com/ So much for.. no dissenting science... For example, this piece, showing the effects in the oceans in the 20's and 30's exceeding that of today. You know.. pre global warming http://www.nipccreport.org/articles/2011/jun/14jun2011a2.html So, what you're saying is that here on a denier's website is a statement that coral has been growing comfortably for as far back as they can measure. And now it's dying off, but that's nothing to worry about and no evidence that anything has changed. As for their figures on acidification and temperature, since you haven't bothered to even mention those I guess you're just calling them liars, as I suggested at the start. Amazing how many thousands of lying, dishonest scientists there are all over the world. Makes you wonder how Al Gore can afford to keep on paying them.

leonine -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 9:41:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: leonine I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Here we go with the old anybody who disagrees is a "denier" crap. Gotta love it. Okay, so here we have this guy whining about plankton. Serious business, no argument there. In 2010, Boyce et al reported that phytoplankton had been declining over most of the last century. This trend is particularly well documented in the Northern Hemisphere and after 1950, and would translate into a decline of approximately 40% since 1950. Holy shit, we gotta start shooting people who drive SUVs! Then they got taken to school... Boyce et al compiled a chlorophyll index by combining in situ chlorophyll and Secchi disk depth measurements that spanned a more than 100-year time period and showed a decrease in marine phytoplankton biomass of approximately 1% of the global median per year over the past century. Eight decades of data on phytoplankton biomass collected in the North Atlantic by the Continuous Plankton Recorder (CPR) survey, however, show an increase in an index of chlorophyll (Phytoplankton Colour Index) in both the Northeast and Northwest Atlantic basins, and other long-term time series, including the Hawaii Ocean Time-series (HOT), the Bermuda Atlantic Time Series (BATS) and the California Cooperative Oceanic Fisheries Investigations (CalCOFI) also indicate increased phytoplankton biomass over the last 20–50 years. These findings, which were not discussed by Boyce et al, are not in accordance with their conclusions and illustrate the importance of using consistent observations when estimating long-term trends. ~Nature Oops. Busted. And oops again: NASA satellites may have missed more than 50% of the phytoplankton in the Southern Ocean But hey, nevermind. No real science here folks, just denier shit. Move along now. K. Seems you didn't bother reading the article, since the main concern was about coral. Or did you skip that because you didn't have a talking point ready for it?

Phydeaux -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 10:05:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leonine quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux But here's a link to thousands of peer reviewed articles contesting tenets of AGW. http://nipccreport.com/ So much for.. no dissenting science... For example, this piece, showing the effects in the oceans in the 20's and 30's exceeding that of today. You know.. pre global warming http://www.nipccreport.org/articles/2011/jun/14jun2011a2.html So, what you're saying is that here on a denier's website ... No. What I'm saying is contrary to alarmists point of view, there are thousands of peer reviewed published articles that dispute tenents of AGW. And as I quoted in the last thread, the number of scientists that view AGW as wrong in whole or in part is increasing rapidly. ' I suppose I'm also saying that contrary to you and other alarmists, I don't deny any physical manifestations. If a creditable journal says that corals are dying then, gee I suppose I believe that corals are dying. However, since I also know that corals had a huge die off, for much the same reasons in the 20s and 30s my challenge to the alarmists is: How is that possible, since that was before AGW. Do you need me to post the graphic (again) that shows that the temperatures we see today are the same as have occurred time and time again, pre global warming. So far I've not heard a single explanation, alarmist, on how that could be.

DomKen -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 10:34:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux But here's a link to thousands of peer reviewed articles contesting tenets of AGW. http://nipccreport.com/ Bullshit. I just took an article at random (on that page the Jan 2013 link 2nd article) (also note how the ref is included but no link to Oikos or any other site where you can get the article or abstract? That's because they do not want anyone actually reading it) Effects of re-oligotrophication and climate warming on plankton richness and community stability in a deep mesotrophic lake http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0706.2011.20055.x/abstract Which is studying the effects of a warming climate on Lake Zurich in Switzerland. The entire article is based on the fact that the climate is warming. The people who run these denial sites really must think the public is made up of dumbasses.

joether -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 11:58:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: leonine I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Here we go with the old anybody who disagrees is a "denier" crap. Gotta love it. Okay, so here we have this guy whining about plankton. Serious business, no argument there. In 2010, Boyce et al reported that phytoplankton had been declining over most of the last century. This trend is particularly well documented in the Northern Hemisphere and after 1950, and would translate into a decline of approximately 40% since 1950. Holy shit, we gotta start shooting people who drive SUVs! link] Here is a quote from YOUR SOURCE: quote: The findings contribute to a growing body of scientific evidence indicating that global warming is altering the fundamentals of marine ecosystems. Says co-author Marlon Lewis, "Climate-driven phytoplankton declines are another important dimension of global change in the oceans, which are already stressed by the effects of fishing and pollution. Better observational tools and scientific understanding are needed to enable accurate forecasts of the future health of the ocean." Explains co-author Boris Worm, "Phytoplankton are a critical part of our planetary life support system. They produce half of the oxygen we breathe, draw down surface CO2, and ultimately support all of our fisheries. An ocean with less phytoplankton will function differently, and this has to be accounted for in our management efforts." Did you even bother to READ the whole thing (its only like five paragraphs long), or just the parts that supported the lame arguments you put forth? Because a typical 'denier' is one that removes anything that doesn't support their viewpoint from scientific papers because it 'has to be wrong'! Yeah, the last paragraph (quoted above) summaries the executive summary of the whole paper. And I'm sure the full paper, if read would even further conclude your argument is invalid.

joether -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 12:05:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The people who run these denial sites really must think the public is made up of dumbasses. Actually they do not bother with actual, credible scientists, nor the grand majority of liberal and moderate individuals. But conservatives? There exists a gold mine of 'stupid' and 'ignorance' with which to claim a handsome profit. And if you actually asked some of those people that create/maintain those sites, they actually agree with the scientists; but then point out they have to lie to make a living (however meager) since they don't have the cushy job of being a Republican in the US House of Representatives.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 12:17:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: leonine I'll be interested to see how the deniers will spin this one. Here we go with the old anybody who disagrees is a "denier" crap. Gotta love it. By definition, if you disagree with another's viewpoint, you are denying it.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 12:19:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The people who run these denial sites really must think the public is made up of dumbasses. They are by and large. Remember. Half of the American public is of below average intelligence. Get them behind you and you're golden.

graceadieu -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 12:26:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Because every time any scientists gets his data wrong or some other scientist comes up with a better measurement it invalidates that whole field. Just ask a denier. You know, I think you've actually got what the issue is, right there. A lot of people without a good post-secondary science education just look at science as a bunch of facts set in stone, like religion. They don't understand the scientific method, that it's a complex and winding process of slowly uncovering the truth. And so when some new data is discovered, or someone comes up with a new finding that better fits part of the exisitng data, they think it undermines and invalidates everything. They get frustrated - "how can we know what the truth is if it's always changing? How can science be right about anything if they're always changing their minds?".

Kirata -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 4:06:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam By definition, if you disagree with another's viewpoint, you are denying it. By your logic, then, both sides are "deniers". [:)] K.

Kirata -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 6:17:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leonine Seems you didn't bother reading the article, since the main concern was about coral. Or did you skip that because you didn't have a talking point ready for it? I read the article. But threats to phytoplankton populations are by far the most serious concern, so I focused on that. However, since you apparently have no response and want to change the subject, alright... Protecting the health of coral reef ecosystems This page from the World Resources Institute section on "Reefs at Risk" details the major problems currently faced by the world's coral reefs... Some of the actions that can best protect reefs are not directly linked to conservation. They range from building sewage and industrial waste treatment facilities to minimize pollution of coastal habitats to removing the host of subsidies and incentives – in the agricultural, forestry, development, fisheries, and other economic sectors – that result in degradation of water quality, direct destruction of reef habitats, and overexploitation of reef species. You working on that? Or are you just interested in whining about CO2 and calling people names? Well nevermind, since there's nothing there about warming, let's move on... Some Corals Like It Hot A team of international scientists working in the central Pacific has discovered that coral which has survived heat stress in the past is more likely to survive it in the future... "Until recently, it was widely assumed that coral would bleach and die off worldwide as the oceans warm due to climate change," says lead author Jessica Carilli, a post-doctoral fellow in Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation's (ANSTO) Institute for Environmental Research. Looks like some corals can adapt. Say it ain't so, Joe! Healthy Coral Reefs Of Madagascar Resisting Damage Healthy coral reefs of Madagascar's northeast coast have so far resisted the damaging effects of warmer ocean temperatures attributed to global climate change, say scientists who recently studied the region... These findings, combined with results of a similar survey in 2002 along northwest Madagascar's coast, increased to 829 the total number of fish species in Malagasy waters. The two Rapid Assessment Program (RAP) expeditions also recorded the highest coral diversity of the western Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, making the region one of the richest in Indian Ocean marine biodiversity. Now look, I've learned not to expect a balanced view from the faithful who believe Salvation cometh only by the Holy Consensus. But you could at least try to pretend that you're not a religious cult. You know, for appearance sake? K.

DomKen -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 6:24:59 PM)
Warming != acidification. Let me know when some legit marine biologist says there is no need to worry about acidification.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 6:25:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam By definition, if you disagree with another's viewpoint, you are denying it. By your logic, then, both sides are "deniers". [:)] K. That is correct. You have the deniers of bought and paid for politicians and you have the deniers of science.

Kirata -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 6:32:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam You have the deniers of bought and paid for politicians and you have the deniers of science. And the great dragon was cast out... which deceiveth the whole world ~Revelation 12:9 Bless you for your faith. K.

MrRodgers -> RE: Ocean scientists join the great AGW conspiracy (10/3/2013 6:42:16 PM)
I deny that there is more money to be made exploiting the environment then there is in saving it. I deny that bodies of water that always froze over are not still always freezing over. I deny that the water coming up the shore means its getting deeper and killing shoreline flora. I deny, I deny, I deny, it's easy, especially when it is...so profitable.

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