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Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 8:33:33 AM   
mnottertail


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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/hospital-prices-cost-differences_n_3232678.html?1367985666


Don't give me ideology, give me actual fact,  and its gonna take some explaining.  We as Americans should have single payer universal, its good for the country it is good for business, even for the insurance companies.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 8:40:42 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/hospital-prices-cost-differences_n_3232678.html?1367985666
Don't give me ideology, give me actual fact,  and its gonna take some explaining.  We as Americans should have single payer universal, its good for the country it is good for business, even for the insurance companies.


Hold on a second. You are saying that different hospitals bill Medicare different costs? I thought Medicare paid the same to every hospital?

I'd much rather see a comparison of insurer's negotiated pricing, including all types of Government insurance. That, IMO, would be much more telling.


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What I support:

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 8:45:07 AM   
mnottertail


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No, I AM NOT SAYING IT.  The article says that Medicare and Medicaid are saying it:

quote:


The database released on Wednesday by the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services lays out for the first time and in voluminous detail how much the vast majority of American hospitals charge for the 100 most common inpatient procedures billed to Medicare. The database -- which covers claims filed within fiscal year 2011 -- spans 163,065 individual charges recorded at 3,337 hospitals located in 306 metropolitan areas.



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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 8:46:50 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/hospital-prices-cost-differences_n_3232678.html?1367985666


Don't give me ideology, give me actual fact,  and its gonna take some explaining.  We as Americans should have single payer universal, its good for the country it is good for business, even for the insurance companies.

For starters I really have no firm opinion but the argument I heard yesterday went this way: Medicare has business costs only about 3% above claims paid whereas private insurers have about 22% overhead. Rebuttal: much of medicare costs are on the books of other agencies. IRS collects premiums and maintains client list for example. Private insurers have to compete for clients by advertising and collect premiums through their own accounting arms. So, the comparison is bogus.

Opps sorry. Didnt read the article. Different point I see.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/8/2013 8:48:37 AM >

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 8:53:32 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
No, I AM NOT SAYING IT.  The article says that Medicare and Medicaid are saying it:
quote:

The database released on Wednesday by the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services lays out for the first time and in voluminous detail how much the vast majority of American hospitals charge for the 100 most common inpatient procedures billed to Medicare. The database -- which covers claims filed within fiscal year 2011 -- spans 163,065 individual charges recorded at 3,337 hospitals located in 306 metropolitan areas.

quote:

Hold on a second. You are saying that different hospitals bill Medicare different costs? I thought Medicare paid the same to every hospital?
I'd much rather see a comparison of insurer's negotiated pricing, including all types of Government insurance. That, IMO, would be much more telling.


My bad. Allow me to rephrase it....

Hold on a second. You are CMMS is saying that different hospitals bill Medicare different costs? I thought Medicare paid the same to every hospital?

I'd much rather see a comparison of insurer's negotiated pricing, including all types of Government insurance. That, IMO, would be much more telling.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 8:56:52 AM   
FunCouple5280


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I see this as the issue with our regulated healthcare system and the stupid regs that they abide by. When you look at the free-market health care sector (lasik, cosmetic surgery and dentistry, etc), prices are negotiated up front and advertised. Do you ever hear: Knee replacement now only $24,999 gauranteed!!!? No, you don't.

There is certain stuff to take and leave from the ACA. One of the big exclusions, in my mind, we failed some disclosure laws in the ACA. I wish, they would have forced healthcare providers to provide all of their procedural costs online, so an indvidual can litterally 'shop' for the healthcare they want. Let's face it, for decades the US just shows up to a hospital and that's that. Now, if you get shot or are having a heart-attack, you are only gonna care about proximity. But if it is Chemo, general surgery, etc, you should be able to look around.

In many ways the private sector has never been free market nor had to compete with one another, so they could just rape the consumer.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 9:51:41 AM   
mnottertail


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http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/how-medicare-sets-hospital-prices-a-primer/

Apparently not exactly the same payments in all cases of (X).   

quote:


I'd much rather see a comparison of insurer's negotiated pricing, including all types of Government insurance. That, IMO, would be much more telling.


The point is; wouldn't we all?  wouldn't we all?

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 9:56:52 AM   
FunCouple5280


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Yup, Information is power.

This is why I am not ready to sign up for single payer yet. I want to actually try some real reforms, like full disclosure on pricing and billing practices.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 10:18:31 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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It is an undisputed fact that places like Canada and the U.K. deliver healthcare at a much lower per capita cost than the U.S. And the statistics on outcomes are interesting, because the few I've seen generally show equal or better outcomes.

We completely overpay in the U.S. And it is easy to think why. With various private entities involved there are many more players in the system who have to be paid. Simple as that. Anyone who thinks our medical system is efficient simply because it is private has had too much of the Ayn Rand drug. Sadly, facts speak louder everywhere else on the planet than in the U.S. Americans prefer ideology to fact......

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 11:40:29 AM   
mnottertail


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http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/30/profitable-hospitals-hca-healthcare-business-mayo-clinic.html

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/8/2013 2:53:51 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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When you look at all the players in this industry: pharmaceutical and medical device companies, hospitals, doctors, insurance companies, ambulance companies, etc. this is a HUGE money making business. There are reasons why the medical community and insurance companies are against a single payer solution. They will not make as much money as they currently do. But in many health care situations providers and insurance companies are in a monopoly situation, so there is not competition to drive prices down to more reasonable levels. Health care really is a public good.

I have relatives in both the U.K and Canada. They receive much better healthcare. The horror stories one hears are grossly exaggerated. And for every out of line story there, there are umpteen numbers of horror stories here. Do people really think that not being able to afford health care is not a horror story of its own sort? Americans would rather have NO access than delayed or regulated access. Truly remarkable. (btw, I speak as someone whose healthcare would actually go down if we moved to single payer because I can currently afford physicians who are out of network for whose services I am not even close to fully reimbursed by my insurance). But for me to have the first class healthcare that I receive in this country means others are going with minimal care, or sometimes without care at all. This is neither sustainable nor desirable for a community.

A society is measured by how it takes care of the weakest in our midst.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 6:15:45 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

When you look at all the players in this industry: pharmaceutical and medical device companies, hospitals, doctors, insurance companies, ambulance companies, etc. this is a HUGE money making business. There are reasons why the medical community and insurance companies are against a single payer solution. They will not make as much money as they currently do. But in many health care situations providers and insurance companies are in a monopoly situation, so there is not competition to drive prices down to more reasonable levels. Health care really is a public good.


Perhaps there might be something to the notion of competition and consumer choice. One of the problems is that a lot of people can't afford health insurance on their own, so they're generally stuck with whatever choices their employer can provide - and even the employers have few affordable options. You have to take whatever you can get, and you're stuck with whatever network the insurance company provides - along with their formulary.

There is some choice, as they generally provide a list of doctors and facilities, but maybe there should be even more choice, to include doctors in other countries, alternative practices, etc. If we really want apply the principles of the "free market" to healthcare, then by all means, let's go all the way with deregulation and caveat emptor.

The first step could be to eliminate the controlled substances act and prescriptions altogether. Let people buy their medications from anywhere, bypassing pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies. Just like people are getting into home-brewing, home-made medications could become the next boom industry. Let the competition beware.

It could be the same for hospitals and doctors. Why should I be locked in to a specific hospital when it might be much cheaper to go to "Discount Eddie's Surgery Clinic and Laundromat." I could go in, do my laundry, and have my gallbladder removed while I wait. "Kidney Removal - 2 For 1 Special!" That kind of thing. If they really want the private sector and the rules of the free market to apply, then I can't see any reason the medical community would object, unless they're hypocrites (which wouldn't be any great surprise).

We're probably headed in that direction anyway. People may be forced to seek out cheaper options, even if they have to go underground. I know people who routinely go to Mexico for dental care and pharmaceuticals.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 6:31:47 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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Just to be clear, I'm certainly not advocating free enterprise for healthcare. As I said, I think healthcare is actually a public good. I sm in support of a single payer system similar to what the U.K. or Canada uses. If your point is that free enterprise would hurt everyone also, I agree. It would simply be a more extreme version of what we already have.

My point about it being big business is that we have structured the entire industry and the various players involved in manner that making huge profits is definitely possible even at the expense of good patient care. A lot of decisions get made that have more to do with how much money gets made rather than truly looking at how to provide proper cradle to grave healthcare. One inclusive system makes it much easier to actually follow people's health over time. And while some in the system are making lots, others are not making enough (being a doctor, especially depending on specialty, is not always the most lucrative profession these days because of the way insurance works). So again, one inclusive system would allow more fairness all the way around. And I don't see a problem with that for something like healthcare.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 6:46:39 AM   
DarkSteven


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Actually, it's questionable whether this is considered "private sector". In classical private sector practice, consumers have facts available and can make free choice. The hospitals are practicing collusion, where providers mask their prices.

While I certainly have my issues with the Obama administration, making prices public is a wonderful first step to driving down health care costs and fostering competition.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 8:02:30 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Actually, it's questionable whether this is considered "private sector". In classical private sector practice, consumers have facts available and can make free choice. The hospitals are practicing collusion, where providers mask their prices.
While I certainly have my issues with the Obama administration, making prices public is a wonderful first step to driving down health care costs and fostering competition.


It's not collusion when there are only two parent companies owning all the hospitals in the area. You certainly wouldn't want to have vastly different prices at the area hospitals that are all owned by the same owner. The Market isn't working so well and it should be clear as to why. Oligopolies skew Markets and tend towards ruining efficiencies.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 8:13:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
When you look at all the players in this industry: pharmaceutical and medical device companies, hospitals, doctors, insurance companies, ambulance companies, etc. this is a HUGE money making business. There are reasons why the medical community and insurance companies are against a single payer solution. They will not make as much money as they currently do. But in many health care situations providers and insurance companies are in a monopoly situation, so there is not competition to drive prices down to more reasonable levels. Health care really is a public good.

Perhaps there might be something to the notion of competition and consumer choice. One of the problems is that a lot of people can't afford health insurance on their own, so they're generally stuck with whatever choices their employer can provide - and even the employers have few affordable options. You have to take whatever you can get, and you're stuck with whatever network the insurance company provides - along with their formulary.
There is some choice, as they generally provide a list of doctors and facilities, but maybe there should be even more choice, to include doctors in other countries, alternative practices, etc. If we really want apply the principles of the "free market" to healthcare, then by all means, let's go all the way with deregulation and caveat emptor.
The first step could be to eliminate the controlled substances act and prescriptions altogether. Let people buy their medications from anywhere, bypassing pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies. Just like people are getting into home-brewing, home-made medications could become the next boom industry. Let the competition beware.
It could be the same for hospitals and doctors. Why should I be locked in to a specific hospital when it might be much cheaper to go to "Discount Eddie's Surgery Clinic and Laundromat." I could go in, do my laundry, and have my gallbladder removed while I wait. "Kidney Removal - 2 For 1 Special!" That kind of thing. If they really want the private sector and the rules of the free market to apply, then I can't see any reason the medical community would object, unless they're hypocrites (which wouldn't be any great surprise).
We're probably headed in that direction anyway. People may be forced to seek out cheaper options, even if they have to go underground. I know people who routinely go to Mexico for dental care and pharmaceuticals.


Provided there are strong false advertising regulations, I'm perfectly okay with opening the health care provider lists to include more practitioners. This may be a case where HSA's reform comes into play. Don't ban HSA's (Obamacare) and allow HSA's to be spent on conventional care and "alternative" care.

You want to see health care spend drop? Let people allocate up to some % of their paycheck towards that end and allow employers to add funding if they want and let those dollars go towards conventional/alternative medical costs, with the caveat that whatever isn't spent, goes into the employee's pocket. Two competing desires there. Employees, obviously, want to be healthy and they will also be motivated to spend as little as that as necessary. There would need to be caps on how much could be contributed to the accounts since it would end up being tax free, but how fuckin' cool would that be?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Zonie63)
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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 9:14:23 AM   
FunCouple5280


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That fact is after the 60's and the big regs that came out, medicine started to consolodate, as well as the insurance companies. With the ACA, tons of small medical practices are again being pushed out of business and they are selling out to large groups again. The reality is we are moving to single payer whether anyone knows it or not. It may not be government owned, but it is headed for monopoly. You know, too big to fail sound familiar? We are headed for the days of regulated monopolies, like the old AT&T days and the airlines. You know when it cost 700$ to fly from LA to StLouis and you had a crappy 40lb phone that cost a fortune to talk on. But it was regulated and they couldn't change prices on you, even though they sucked.

The notion that the private sector is overpriced because of dog eat dog competition is bogus. There is nothing that resembles real competition or choice when it comes to medical care. It has been that way for awhile.

To all the foreigners that keep professing your systems as model, understand this, if the US goes to single payer, it will look nothing like yours nor function half as well. It is how America works, our ability to manage bureaucracies blows. We have always functioned a little different and been mavericks in many ways. Our strengths have always been in individuals not in groups.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 3:07:10 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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FR

A single payer that is private sector would be a monopoly - and we can pretty much guarantee healthcare will NOT be affordable.

Health care is a public good.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 3:11:32 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Well what do you think Obamacare is driving for...

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 3:14:34 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Well what do you think Obamacare is driving for...



Obamacare is not even close to a single payer system....not even remotely.

Coverage for people who do not have or cannot afford private insurance is not the same as single payer. Single payer would be a system more comparable to the U.K. or Canada, and that is not what Obamacare does (even if it is fully implemented.)


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