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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 3:21:15 PM   
FunCouple5280


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yeah but it is forcing the mass consolodation of private healthcare.....leading to monopoly. Don't forget the insurance companies helped write it


Ultimately it is a win for the mega-corps

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 8:48:38 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Well what do you think Obamacare is driving for...

Obamacare is not even close to a single payer system....not even remotely.
Coverage for people who do not have or cannot afford private insurance is not the same as single payer. Single payer would be a system more comparable to the U.K. or Canada, and that is not what Obamacare does (even if it is fully implemented.)


Obamacare doesn't even do what you're implying it does. Millions still won't be covered.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 9:04:39 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The Market isn't working so well and it should be clear as to why. Oligopolies skew Markets and tend towards ruining efficiencies.


Oligopolies and increase in monopoly and monopsony power (both of which the US "health industry" hold in spades) are the natural and unavoidable outcomes of the 'limited government' regime that is one of your mantras. Deregulation = consolidation and liquidation, that's how it works in both theory and practice.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/9/2013 9:34:33 PM >

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 9:19:55 PM   
Edwynn


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I've already linked to the OECD data that showed that the US pays 50% more for healthcare than the next nearest country while ranking nowhere near the top in actual outcomes, at least 4 times previously in other posts on this subject. You're on your own from here on out.

Get your head out of your political or social ideological arse and read and understand some facts for a change.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 9:23:48 PM   
njlauren


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The real problem is that competition works best when you have products that lend themselves to economies of scale and automation and such. I have heard health care compared to something like tv sets, but the problem is tv sets are a fungible item, made with discrete components that are subject to economies of scale, efficient production methods and other factors to make them cheaper...which doesn't hold for medicine. Sure, we have modern equipment like MRI's, and cat scans and diagnostic tests, but a lot of medicine doesn't lend itself to the economies of scale and efficiency because it is a service industry...and each patient and case is different. Sure, some things, like getting treated for poison ivy, is easy, or maybe setting a broken bone, but if someone is battling cancer, how do you compete on price when you don't even know what will work? Are you going to advertise like Earl Scheib "I'll treat any cancer, 99.99"? It is true that some procedures, like Lasik and boob jobs and the like, are advertised at a flat rate (that have their own problems), but those are repeatable procedures where the steps are discrete and where there are efficiencies of scale, it is a bit different then treating someone with cancer or a chronic illness.

Part of the problem with a multi payer system is obvious. Medicare advertises how efficient it is, how they are cutting costs, but they do so with a shell game. Medicare says "I'll pay 500 bucks for that procedure", that actually costs the provider 1500..to make up for it, they overcharge their private insurance patients to make up the difference (same with the uninsured). There are a lot of routine medical procedures that can be done by someone like a nurse or nurse practioner, like a strep throat, that doesn't require an expensive MD to do it, but the AMA wouldn't be happy about that. Same thing with going overseas for medical care, the AMA would be pretty pissed if health insurance allowed you to go overseas for cheaper care.

We have pharmaceuticals in cahoots with doctors, who prescribe expensive, new generation drugs when a generic of an older drug would do just as well. We have advertising, showing an old lady running with her dog after taking celebrex, or the ads for other drugs, to convince people to use them ('talk to your doctor about XXXX").....the problem is there is no incentive to rational medical care, and some big ethical issues. Last numbers I saw said 70% of the cost of medicine was maintaining the last month of life......which means we are extending lives but at a huge cost. Every time they rescusitate Grandma who is 85 and has a failing heart, it is 100k+ in costs, keeping someone in late stage cancer alive with all kinds of heroics is costly as well.....

The private sector can be efficient where the means exist for it to be, but the current medical setup has so many bellies to feed, has so much ambiguity around it, so many players, that you end up with many ways to game the system, robbing peter to pay paul, and end up with a mess. The one thing single payer does do is stop some of the chicanery, like cost shifting, since they would be screwing themselves, likewise, private insurers collect 22% more in premiums then they pay out to make a profit; if single payer was non profit it would be a reduction in costs.

I don't know what the answer in the end will be, I just doubt 'free market capitalism' will work, it works for plastic surgery and lasik because the former is a luxury item with stuff that is pretty routine and easy to estimate costs on, the latter is heavily automated. One idea might be something to make the AMA have kittens, develop automated medical scans like in "The Andromeda Strain" where computers do all the main work and a human doctor simply monitors it, in theory with the kind of knowledge we have now, the technology is probably there and it would save money, since among other things, if programmed right, machines won't prescribe a drug so it can get a junket to Cancun the way human doctors do.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/9/2013 10:51:53 PM   
Edwynn


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One idea could be that the largest economy in the world might should take a look at the 30 other OECD countries who have a single-payer system, look at the cost effectiveness and better outcomes obtained thereby, and learn from it.

That is, if we are the least bit concerned with 'efficiency.'

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 5:56:14 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The Market isn't working so well and it should be clear as to why. Oligopolies skew Markets and tend towards ruining efficiencies.

Oligopolies and increase in monopoly and monopsony power (both of which the US "health industry" hold in spades) are the natural and unavoidable outcomes of the 'limited government' regime that is one of your mantras. Deregulation = consolidation and liquidation, that's how it works in both theory and practice.


Not exactly natural and unavoidable outcomes. "Limited Government" doesn't mean "No Government." So, right there, your argument is dead in the water.

No one is saying that there ought to be no regulations. No one is saying that preventing monopolies/oligopolies is necessarily an overreach of the Government. And, Limited Government, can also mean that there are limits on the powers that Government may wield, too. You know, like enumerated powers?

Preventing Market abuses can be done quite easily without sledgehammer government. Unfortunately, that isn't in the best interest of government, nor is it in the best interest of most of the elected officials.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 6:42:31 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Preventing Market abuses can be done quite easily without sledgehammer government.



Give an example.


Historical experience in the health industry and financial industry wouldn't provide the best arguments for the putative 'self regulation' propaganda, so you might want to look elsewhere for something to prop up that notion.

In the latter instance, the government switched out the 16 pound sledgehammer for an 2 ounce feather duster, and all hell broke loose.

In the financial industry, clearly, a 64 pound sledgehammer is needed. It's not just another business, another 'industry'; it's our money, our wealth, our retirement.

Of course markets are 'self-correcting,' but as a society we have to figure out how many people we want to put out of their house and their job and their retirement for sake of some 'sounds good' cockamamie ideal. In some instances, such as the financial industry, it's either the sledgehammer of regulation or the car crusher (in fact, house crusher and job crusher) of the banks when absence of regulation allows them. I know my choice.

Things are different on the ground of reality than they are in the blue sky of ideology.

Thus spake ex-Enron employees; retirees who saw their largest investment, their house, melt from under them; and the newly unemployed.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/10/2013 7:20:46 AM >

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 6:50:48 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not advocating free enterprise for healthcare. As I said, I think healthcare is actually a public good. I sm in support of a single payer system similar to what the U.K. or Canada uses. If your point is that free enterprise would hurt everyone also, I agree. It would simply be a more extreme version of what we already have.


I'm not really in support of that system either, and I agree that healthcare is a public good, just like police and fire departments. I'm not sure if we can just copy another country's model, since it may not have the same results here in America. But I think we need to be more flexible in our thinking here.

To be honest, I don't think I would come down that hard on the doctors. The doctors I know are, for the most part, decent honorable practitioners who honestly put their patients' welfare above all other considerations. If they ever game the system, it's mainly with the goal of helping their patients get the best care. Kind of like Hawkeye Pierce on "M*A*S*H" - a wheeler-dealer but always put his patients first.

Of course, not all doctors are like that, so I suppose there's good and bad in every profession. They may earn high salaries, but they're nowhere near the salaries of the CEOs of companies like United Healthcare. Besides, it's the doctors, nurses, and other professionals who are doing the actual work, whereas the insurance companies are collecting all the money.

I get the feeling that the doctors are caught somewhere in the middle. The doctors are the ones who deal directly with the patients and their families, while the people making the actual decisions are somewhere else - insulated from it all. If the insurance company doesn't cover a medication that the doctor thinks a patient needs, then they have to file paperwork to get pre-authorizations so that it will be covered - or they have to think of something else that the insurance company will cover. So, doctors can't really make decisions based on pure medical science as to what they think the patient needs.

If a patient is sick and wants to be admitted to the hospital, their own physician can't authorize that. The "hospitalist" (a term which cracked me up the first time I heard it) has to make the determination as to whether the patient is sick enough to be admitted. There's a strange bureaucracy they have to work under.

I don't know if doctors in the UK or Canada have to contend with that kind of bureaucracy when it comes to patient care. But that's what a lot of people in the US argue when they argue against nationalized healthcare; they say it will lead to bigger bureaucracy, but it seems that's what we already have.

Well, at least I know that if I ever show up at an ER bleeding to death, somebody there would probably be able to lend me a band-aid.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 9:42:25 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Oligopolies skew Markets and tend towards ruining efficiencies.


Strongly agreed.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 10:08:10 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Preventing Market abuses can be done quite easily without sledgehammer government.

Give an example.
Historical experience in the health industry and financial industry wouldn't provide the best arguments for the putative 'self regulation' propaganda, so you might want to look elsewhere for something to prop up that notion.
In the latter instance, the government switched out the 16 pound sledgehammer for an 2 ounce feather duster, and all hell broke loose.
In the financial industry, clearly, a 64 pound sledgehammer is needed. It's not just another business, another 'industry'; it's our money, our wealth, our retirement.
Of course markets are 'self-correcting,' but as a society we have to figure out how many people we want to put out of their house and their job and their retirement for sake of some 'sounds good' cockamamie ideal. In some instances, such as the financial industry, it's either the sledgehammer of regulation or the car crusher (in fact, house crusher and job crusher) of the banks when absence of regulation allows them. I know my choice.
Things are different on the ground of reality than they are in the blue sky of ideology.
Thus spake ex-Enron employees; retirees who saw their largest investment, their house, melt from under them; and the newly unemployed.


Separate insurance companies from ownership of care providers. You will pit them against each other. As it is, one can run at ridiculously low margins while making up for that on the other side. They control the cost of the care (providers) and have, essentially, a financing arm (insurance industry) to pay those costs. You can bitch all you want about the ridiculous pay insurance CEO's make (and you'd be right), but who out there is bitching about the amount of money CEO's of care providers are making?

But, by all means, let's force everyone (or most everyone) to carry insurance Can't see anything wrong with that. Insurance companies can't just jack up their rates for no reason and have a minimum % of premiums they have to spend or give refunds. Gee. How hard would it be to increase rates at the provider level to maintain insurance spends and/or give reasons for premium hikes?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 10:13:01 AM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The Market isn't working so well and it should be clear as to why. Oligopolies skew Markets and tend towards ruining efficiencies.


Oligopolies and increase in monopoly and monopsony power (both of which the US "health industry" hold in spades) are the natural and unavoidable outcomes of the 'limited government' regime that is one of your mantras. Deregulation = consolidation and liquidation, that's how it works in both theory and practice.





Depends on the regs


Some regs prevent monopolies, others create them. O-care is creating them. The small practices can't afford to comply and manage the withering amount of paperwork, therefor they consolidate.

Look at the Americans with Disabilities act. Why do you think there are limits to compliance. Why does a business of 10 people not need to follow all the rules? it would bankrupt them. Asking a business with only 3 people in it to pay for drug rehab and keep the job open for one of them would kill them.


Regulations are like anything, they must be balanced. Too few and you have anarchy, too many and you suffocate the economony.

If you believe the only answer is regulation, you are no less extreme than the degregulate everything crowd.

(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 10:36:43 AM   
Edwynn


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Look at the regulation regime regarding the electrical power industry, before and after deregulation.

I was there, and well aware of all the sudden and allowed increase in monthly rates occurring when all the nuke plants were built.

"We got all this bank money, and all this government money, but we're going to double your rate for the 'more efficient' nuclear power." And the local regulatory authorities agreed.

Idiocy, no question.

But how many people died from that, as opposed to the post deregulation Enron, whose traders directly shut down various California plants in the midst of heightened summer demand, resulting in numerous deaths, and not even a single manslaughter or negligent homicide charge to be had from it?

They are almost all working for Exxon or ICE now, TVM.

Free as a freaking bird, just as you like it.


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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 10:49:14 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The Market isn't working so well and it should be clear as to why. Oligopolies skew Markets and tend towards ruining efficiencies.


Oligopolies and increase in monopoly and monopsony power (both of which the US "health industry" hold in spades) are the natural and unavoidable outcomes of the 'limited government' regime that is one of your mantras. Deregulation = consolidation and liquidation, that's how it works in both theory and practice.





Depends on the regs


Some regs prevent monopolies, others create them. O-care is creating them. The small practices can't afford to comply and manage the withering amount of paperwork, therefor they consolidate.

Look at the Americans with Disabilities act. Why do you think there are limits to compliance. Why does a business of 10 people not need to follow all the rules? it would bankrupt them. Asking a business with only 3 people in it to pay for drug rehab and keep the job open for one of them would kill them.


Regulations are like anything, they must be balanced. Too few and you have anarchy, too many and you suffocate the economony.

If you believe the only answer is regulation, you are no less extreme than the degregulate everything crowd.



Look at the other 30 OECD countries and point out to us where the 'regs' or their administration of health care in whatever fashion is bringing them to ruin.

Germany out-exports the US (in total volume, not per capita volume), with only 27% of our population.

Yes, regulations must be balanced. Every relevant statistic reveals that the US is far out of balance in many regards, starting with the tax structure and regulatory regime.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/10/2013 10:54:33 AM >

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 10:53:57 AM   
FunCouple5280


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you are missing the point, in no way you can claim regs absolutely help the little guy. You can show how the big guy takes advantage of some poorly guided deregulation. There are examples for anything. That doesn't make it true across the board

It is the point of balance.

Why do we need PUC's? We let utilities operate regional monopolies, so they must be regulated, I am not opposed to that. You don't have a choice where you get your power. But when you have ample competition like you do with fast food joints, you certainly don't need to come in a regulate the price of a cheeseburger. The market will self regulate.

quote:

But how many people died from that, as opposed to the post deregulation Enron, whose traders directly shut down various California plants in the midst of heightened summer demand, resulting in numerous deaths, and not even a single manslaughter or negligent homicide charge to be had from it?


But I thought AC's were environmental devils killing the trees and birds

Yes they should have been hung.

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 11:21:04 AM   
Edwynn


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I never claimed that there was any absolute protection of 'the little guy.' Nor did I claim that all efforts should be made to such an attempt.

There are people far smarter than I who have railed against the financial 'industry' and warned against the deregulation therein.

Do a search on Brooksley Born, Janet Tavakoli, Anat R. Admati, et al.

Don't ask me why they're all women. It's like with high-dollar stereo systems: the women just cut through the BS and explain how it actually sounds in the simplest terms.

This is why women are so absent from the hi-fi media.

That sure as heck doesn't stop them from diving in head first into finance or economics, though. Just ask Wendy Gramm, engineer of non-regulatory Enrons's rock throwing at investors and employees, in which instance she was awarded a chair on the board of that company.

It's good to see that things have all equaled out now, where e.g. Verizon get's an award for their hiring of women, one of those women fighting my now-dead cousin for her vestment and benefits to the very end, even after she and they were fully aware that she had contracted ALS. They were quite calculating, in every sense, no question. They went to full-on attack after that information, actually.

If you wanna be the bitch, then you have to be every much the bitch that male CEOs are.


Surely, we don't need any regulations for people such as this, do we?

Yeah, I was way over-reaching there.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/10/2013 12:15:47 PM >

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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 11:54:34 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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I agree not all doctors are "bad". But the structure of the overall system provides odd incentives. Doctors do order more expensive and greater numbers of tests for people who carry high-end medical insurance. Doctors are more likely to recommend expensive surgery than alternative treatments for people who carry high-end medical insurance. When a doctor knows something will be covered they are more likely to recommend it - especially if they will be paid more, too. And it is NOT always in the patient's best interest.

I live in New York and have excellent health care coverage. The absolute first thing that happens when you walk into a doctor's office in this city is that they get your insurance information. Why do you think doctors get this information up front instead of after the appointment. (btw, these are doctors who don't handle insurance claims, so I pay out of pocket to see them, and then I deal with my insurance company separately - the doctor and his/her office are NOT involved with my personal claim). If I'm cynical, it's because there is reason to be.

Doctors are not morally superior human beings. They are regular people who have medical training. They have their own financial and personal issues. I can always tell when a doctor has college age children.....



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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 12:38:21 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I agree not all doctors are "bad". But the structure of the overall system provides odd incentives. Doctors do order more expensive and greater numbers of tests for people who carry high-end medical insurance. Doctors are more likely to recommend expensive surgery than alternative treatments for people who carry high-end medical insurance. When a doctor knows something will be covered they are more likely to recommend it - especially if they will be paid more, too. And it is NOT always in the patient's best interest.

I live in New York and have excellent health care coverage. The absolute first thing that happens when you walk into a doctor's office in this city is that they get your insurance information. Why do you think doctors get this information up front instead of after the appointment. (btw, these are doctors who don't handle insurance claims, so I pay out of pocket to see them, and then I deal with my insurance company separately - the doctor and his/her office are NOT involved with my personal claim). If I'm cynical, it's because there is reason to be.

Doctors are not morally superior human beings. They are regular people who have medical training. They have their own financial and personal issues. I can always tell when a doctor has college age children.....


I agree that doctors can be pretty particular about getting the insurance information upfront. Then there's also the matter of referrals to specialists, who won't see patients unless they have a valid referral from their PCP with the authorization number from the insurance company. I'm sure the insurance companies are filled with nitpicking martinets who will deny payment if the doctors don't have their ducks lined up. So, the doctors have probably learned the hard way that they have to have all the paperwork in order ahead of time.

Pharmacies are in a similar situation. They have to wait on approval from the insurance company as well. I work in social services, and I work with pharmacies and doctors offices all the time, so I've learned that if you schmooze and get an "in" with these people, they'll help you out.

I'm sure there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors out there who are only out for the bucks. But even then, they seem more like bit players in this whole sick charade. They're still the small fry, not the big fish.

I don't know how much doctors get paid (if anything) from ordering expensive tests, which are usually conducted by a separate company, whether x-rays, blood tests, MRIs, etc. A standard office visit to the doctor is relatively cheap compared to the costs of these tests. Hospital stays are prohibitively expensive, but how much of that does the doctor actually get (as opposed to the hospital administrators who also get large salaries)?

I think the American Hospital Association is a far more powerful lobby than even the AMA (although my guess is that they probably work in concert with each other). Then there's the pharmaceutical lobby, the insurance lobby. Doctors in private practice seem more like small businessmen by comparison, not the real big shots in the industry. I've heard some doctors complain that they have to devote a significant percentage of their revenue just to pay for malpractice insurance.

One thing I do notice about doctors' offices: The salespeople from the pharmaceutical companies seem to get almost royal treatment. It doesn't matter how many people are in the waiting room; they get to go in right away. The doctor is never too busy to see them.


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RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 1:39:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Look at the other 30 OECD countries and point out to us where the 'regs' or their administration of health care in whatever fashion is bringing them to ruin.
Germany out-exports the US (in total volume, not per capita volume), with only 27% of our population.
Yes, regulations must be balanced. Every relevant statistic reveals that the US is far out of balance in many regards, starting with the tax structure and regulatory regime.


Oh, FFS. You want to know why Germany out exports us? Because we out consume them. We out produce them by over $1T, right? What is their consumption, compared to ours? What a fucking stupid-ass argument.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Private sector is efficient? explain!!!! - 5/10/2013 2:14:59 PM   
Edwynn


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What's so 'stupid' in pointing out that a country of 83 million out-exports a country of 312 million, in total volume of exports?

What is so stupid in pointing out whatever country that can produce to such a degree beyond their own needs, who is not a 'developing economy'?

I'm not as stuck on the balance of payments thing as some others are, but this particular discrepancy is worthy of note. There is no escaping the fact that the US has far too many corporations sucking at the teat to effectively compete with even so-called 'high tax' countries.

The US out-consumes every other nation on earth, due to being the most populous "developed economy" or "most developed nation."

If Luxenbourg were the size of the US, they would out-consume the US.


Your point?



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/10/2013 2:19:22 PM >

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