Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (Full Version)

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SAMHAIN09 -> Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 3:19:39 AM)

I should say right now by forgivable I mean if you found out it just mean a punishment or severe lecture would be in the subs future and not the relationship itself ending.

Okay if your submissive or slave has lied and is keeping a secret(though not one that has potential to wreck the relationship such as cheating) by lie I mean something small like they were told to do something lied and said they did it when really they forgot and then ever so stealthly completed the task before you ever had the chance to check leaving you none the wiser.

Now by secret I mean two things one something that happened years ago and is deeply personal to the sub/slave basically anything dark but not to too dark like they were convicted of rape or murder or anything like that. I basically mean like said person had kids they walked out on or had kids when they themselves were just a kid and couldn't handle it, was a former street junkie and did terrible things to support the addiction(In retrospect I can see how this is something a dominant might want to know) is in witness protection(I think this is a bit of a grey area considering the golden rule of witness protection)

The second is that they originally were just using you for the ever reason or started getting involved with you and the bdsm lifestyle on a bet but over time became genuienly committed, while your relationship was starting the sub or slave was in another one that was clearly heading down hill and neither person was doing the other any favors by staying.

Now for the acts of disobedience...
They tell you they are working when really they called in sick so they could go watch the big foot ball game that you forbade as part of a punishment.



MariaB -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 4:14:55 AM)

This sounds like lies, betrayal, manipulation and deceit.
Forget the disobedience for now. In fact forget this has anything to do with BDSM and a relationship built on that. Look at everything for what it is in the cold light of day.
What you claim to be disobedience is nothing more than lies, manipulation and deceit. Its not about naughtiness its the fact that this person could do this with smooth precision. You have to ask yourself how much you can trust this person. Can this person ever change his/her ways. Some people get a kick out of deceiving others and they become Masters of manipulation. One lie covers another lie. If they get caught they can convince you they were merely the victim.
It may well be that as the lies and deceit unfolds itself, truth prevails or it may be that you are just another future victim of this person.

My warning would be, tread carefully and have no expectations.
My advice would be, gift him/her with this book 'Radical Honesty' by Brad Blanton



fragilepieces -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 4:33:53 AM)

Sam how different would all of this be if it were a vanilla relationship?



FrostedFlake -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience acceptable? (1/2/2012 4:42:02 AM)

Well Sam, I am going to have to handle that a bit at a time.

To start with, Hausboy is, if I recall correctly, using the icon you are wearing. This will cause some people to confuse one of you for the other. And might upset Hausboy. You might consider selecting another.

Now, having taken a moment to write that, and looking up to your post again, it looks different. That is to say, having thought about it, I realize now that the details you offered for me to think over are not relevant. The details are important, but what you are really asking about is lies. To paraphrase your question : Is it OK to lie? To ones dominant partner.

The question kind of answers itself. The word you seem to be avoiding is trust. There is another word that is important too, as important to many Dominant types, that word is control. There is a third word that belongs in this set, respect, and this includes self respect. These are the words a relationship is built upon. If you lay these foundation blocks on sand, however well you build, the house will shift, twist, warp, and, if it does not fall outright, will in time have to be scrapped.

To save folks the trouble of perving my profile, I am going to post my introductory essay right here, to show that I mean what I said.

quote:

I want what everyone wants. An attractive lover who wants (most of) what I want. Go on. Tell me you are looking for anyone else. And I will predict with confidence you are yanking my chain.

  On the matter of chain... if you like things like that, and like my look, I would be pleased to talk things over with you. I think you will find I try to be a person I can respect. I listen to that guy in the mirror. Even if he is no smarter than me. I hope you look for this in a person, because I will be looking for it in you.

  I am different than most men, but the general public has no idea. The image I try to put forward is mainstream. I would be pleased to be more obvious in an appropriate venue, if invited, but otherwise I prefer the better part of valor. I want the respect of the passersby, in addition to my own.

  Naturally, I will be hoping to earn your respect. If I can't do that, well then, gosh. I don't know how much you will be able to like me. If you don't want someone you can respect, it is good that we had this conversation.

  I trust I have not overused the word respect, but without it, how can you have trust? And without trust... what have you got?

Respect. Control. Trust. Did I mention anything else?



Ninebelowzero -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience acceptable? (1/2/2012 4:49:49 AM)

Nicely put the lot of you. (snark free)



stellauk -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 5:08:55 AM)

I see this similar to MariaB.. the disobedience is one thing, but the rest is a case of morality and moral values.

I cannot offer any opinion as to the dark secret, as it depends. It's also a moot point because we all have secrets and stuff that we hold back from people from our pasts. It depends. Much comes down to the intention and motivation behind it all. A previous conviction for assault might just be a skeleton, and not the same as say a post-op transsexual giving you the illusion that they are a naturally born female.

We all have our own individual hierarchy of moral values.

But stuff like the lie over the task is also deception in relation to a commitment, the initial deception when forming a relationship would also for me call the entire relationship into question.

With regard to punishment for these matters I don't see it as appropriate. We are not children, but adults and because of this I hold people responsible for their decisions taken and their morality.



kallisto -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 6:01:44 AM)

IMO, this has nothing to do with a "Dom/sub - Dom/slave" relationship (or any other "named" relatoinship) and everything to do with a relationship between two people.



Kana -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 6:50:44 AM)

IJMHO and all, but relationship's built on lies crumble because the foundation, trust, is lacking.
To quote the great James Marshall Hendrix, "Castles made of sand fall into the sea, eventually."



MissImmortalPain -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 7:51:50 AM)

To answer the topic question...Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? The answer would be, depends on the person, the act, the lie.

Has a sub ever told me he was getting something done when he was...playing a video game, taking a nap, playing with himself...yeah. It normally gets them more tasks, because beating the stupid out of them would get most of them killed. As to if I didn't catch them...well I didn't catch them so how would I know.

Deep dark secrets are deep and dark for a reason, and though I am someone that has a habit of finding out almost everything about a person(mommys are like that you know) I believe that people keep secrets for a reason. Normally they do it because they feel they are trying to protect themselves. If someone doesnt trust me enough to tell me something I see it as much as a fault on my part as on theirs. I also feel that no one can know eveything about someone elses life because they have not lived it themself. I do believe people should be open and honest but I also know that people are more likely to do so when they feel they can trust the other person.

As for that one about someone just being curious about bdsm or wanting out of a bad realationship.....yeah I have seen this happen a lot. I have even had it happen to me(more than once) I have had a few subs that came to me to get away from another realationship, and I can't say I hate them for doing it. The livein I have now wanted out of a bad realationship when he started talking to me. He very much played down what the realationship ment to him. It ment a lot more to the other women(which yes I did end up talking to) than it did to him. He was looking for someone that was more D/s than she was...okay I can deal with that, but I didn't run to be his domme. I became his friend and gave him information he didn't have. As has happened before he now holds me as something meaningful to him.

That last one....I have never dealt with, or will deal with, someone that works and does not take their job seriously. Thats just how I am.

I know a lot of people are going to bring up trust and honesty and all those other nice words that folks use when it comes to "realationships" but I personally will just keep reminding myself that rarely in this "lifestyle" when talking about such things do people use the word human. We are all human. Humans are flawed, they make mistakes. The mistakes help them learn(hopefully) I believe at my core that if someone ventures into this kind of realationship looking for someone that will never tell them a fib, never let them down, never leave them wondering why they got into the realationship to begin with...then they would do best to stay out of not only this kind of realationship but every other kind as well.

*Disclaimer, because I have been jumped far to many times lately* The above is my opinion, and my opinion only. It is directed at the Op in response to his question. If it does not fit your vaules, needs, or wants, please feel free to disregard it along with everything else you don't want to hear. Thank you and have a wonderful day.




njlauren -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 7:52:33 AM)

I agree, it isn't about d/s and punishment, it is about relationship dynamics. Some things you mention, like watching a football game you were ordered not to watch, kind of falls into the line of breaking the rules of the relationship, and would be problematic in that context (if it was part of a pattern, the dominant one could be angry that their sub wasn't following their rules).

In terms of skeletons in the closet, major issues, that has nothing to do with bd/sm. While it is understandable to feel shame about who we are, for example, if you are in a relationship with someone and have let's say a rape in your past that causes you to behave in certain ways, triggers, etc, it would be pretty stupid not to talk about it, since it affects the other person. If you once dated someone who was psychopathically attracted to you, kind of like Glenn Close in Fatal attraction, then that could be relevant, or if you had a major financial problem that wasn't resolved and you were going into a relationship, especislly marriage, then that would be relevant......A lot of it has to do with does it relate to the current relationship? If you played around with same sex relationships earlier in your life, is that really relevant (well, if it is a woman telling the guy, would probably be relevant to him:) considering it was just experimentation? You get the idea.

My take is it is always better to be truthful, a domme might punish you for not doing something you were supposed to, but the punishment would be better then if she found out you hid it from her, and if a pattern of such untruthfullness comes up, it is going to hurt the relationship, dom/mes have to have as much trust in their subs as subs do in their dom/mes....



kalikshama -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 8:35:10 AM)

quote:

something small like they were told to do something lied and said they did it when really they forgot and then ever so stealthly completed the task before you ever had the chance to check leaving you none the wiser.

Heehee, done this in the workplace.

quote:

one something that happened years ago and is deeply personal to the sub/slave basically anything dark but not to too dark

These stay secret at least until we are moving towards a serious, committed relationship

quote:

They tell you they are working when really they called in sick so they could go watch the big foot ball game that you forbade as part of a punishment.

This is wrong on several levels and would probably be a dealbreaker for me.



LizDeluxe -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 9:47:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain
I know a lot of people are going to bring up trust and honesty and all those other nice words that folks use when it comes to "relationships" but I personally will just keep reminding myself that rarely in this "lifestyle" when talking about such things do people use the word human. We are all human. Humans are flawed, they make mistakes. The mistakes help them learn(hopefully) I believe at my core that if someone ventures into this kind of relationship looking for someone that will never tell them a fib, never let them down, never leave them wondering why they got into the relationship to begin with...then they would do best to stay out of not only this kind of relationship but every other kind as well.


Bravo. The only reason I clicked on this thread was to see how many times people self-righteously said "I never lie and never trust anyone who lies to me" yada yada yada. These threads never fail in bringing those comments out. I never expected to read a paragraph like yours. Well done and spot on.



tazzygirl -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 10:07:29 AM)

Its not the flaws that bother .. sometimes I love someone because of their flaws, not in spite of them. Lying is a flaw. I think we all expect to be lied too at some point. For me, its the insult to my intelligence. The insult could be that you honestly thought I would not find out about a lie. And lets be clear, we arent speaking of the "No honey, that dress doesnt make you look fat" kind of lie. The insult could be that you thought I could not deal with the truth. Or it could be that you honestly believed that lying about something insignificant would upset me that badly. Very few lies live on unknown forever.

I dont believe submissives have the corner on this market. Nor do I believe its any worse coming from a dominant side. Everyone wants to feel beautiful, needed, wanted, desired... even if its through a lie told to make someone feel better. Most lies that arent from that group are told with either a plan of deceit in mind or a place of panic. If you feel panicked enough to lie to me, then we need to reassess our relationship. If you lie to me because you want to deceive me for some personal gain, I need to reassess my relationship.



Lucylastic -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 10:20:13 AM)

I like facts and truth, I dont like being wrong, I dont like being lied to..
Yes Im guilty of mistakes,lies, and nerves.
It all depends on what the lie is and what its for.
IM one who has many friends who are flawed according to others around me, but those flaws are acceptable
but betrayal, or trying to put one over on me or trick me, nah thats not on.
I am only responsible tho for what I deem important in my relationships.
Will it make a difference to your dynamic, or those around you??
in ten years is it going to matter?
YMMV




WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 10:32:35 AM)

I think many things, including lies, can be forgiven when the relationship is strong enough.  So long as there isn't a pattern of deceit.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice ...fuck you. 

Someone who will lie to their boss and their dominant for a quick thrill or random good time?  Hell No!  Unless it is the Saints playing in the Super Bowl - or the LSU Tigers at a World Series.  And in that case, I'd better be invited, or it is still unforgivable. 



MariaB -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 11:05:12 AM)

Of course we all lie from time to time. We start lying around the age of 4 or 5, not maliciously but to test what we can manipulate within our own environment. We go on to lie to our parents or teachers to get out of trouble and as we make that transition from childhood to adulthood we tend to move more towards ‘white lies’ to protect someone’s feelings. White lies are more about compassion and conscience. If for example a friend was dying from cancer and looked terrible but asked us how she looked, truth in such a situation wouldn’t be appropriate and someone who used truth in such a situation would be both un-compassionate and have little conscience.
I firmly believe that many of the people who grow up to lie manipulatively have just not transitioned from childhood to adulthood. Its not a personality disorder, it’s a learnt way of getting what you want out of life. The problem with getting away with lies is, it often compels the liar to continue with their deception.
I think of truth as an unspoken agreement. I don’t have any reason to lie and manipulate a person and I expect to be treated the same way. Once a lie is revealed then that agreement is broken and I no longer have any expectations of them. Without expectations there is no foundation of trust to build a relationship upon. The problem with lack of trust is, even truths are suspected. Everything is questioned. Suspicion leads to behaviors such as paranoia and jealousy and before you know it, you have the makings of a very unhealthy relationship.



Jaquin -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 11:18:15 AM)

FR
Years back when my circle of friends was tearing itself apart thanks to the lies of a single individual whom, for reasons unknown, felt the need to sow dissent I came online one day to find myself bombarded by the bickering of people who last I saw them got along great.

The power of a lie can be subtle or violently obvious, and it can rip every single one of us apart from those we care about if we let it.

Around that time, in moments of philosophical clarity I said two profound things (and many not so profound things).

1: "And it is not the passing of ages that brings us together, but all the times we fell and were humble enough to ask for forgivness."

2: "Anger seeps from the mouth, dissipating into nothingness once stubbornness' tight lips lose their hold, due to the pressure of flooding emotion or the surrendering of pride."

Now they sound better then when I first said them because I saved them and rewrote them, and I tend to be a bit of a poet at times [:-]

The premise of them is that many relationships end because our pride and our desire to "hold something against others" exceeds our desire to maintain a relationship.  Yes I get that there are levels of deceit and lies that are unacceptable, but in most cases what we perceive as our limit of what we can accept is what our raging emotions at the time (ie. anger) tell us.

In my opinion: forgive, or try to.  If you can't go days, or weeks, without it constantly bugging the back of your mind then perhaps it really did pass your level.  But if you make snap decisions while angry at some lie or betrayal you may grow to regret it once you remember that we all fall, and that when we do we all hope that we have at least one friend left to dust us off and help us back on our feet.



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 11:27:38 AM)

I agree MariaB,

I'm not in a particularly 'deep' mood today, so most of my posts today have tended toward amused flippancy.

There was a time, just after I left my husband, when all of his lies started to unravel - and it was devastating for me.  For a while, I was out of balance, and would absolutely drop a person from my life if they lied to me about anything at all.  Now, 14 years  or so later, I hope I'm a bit more balanced and can accept that people are human and screw up.  I'm still hard on people, and expect a high level of integrity from anyone I consider a friend, but I do try to remember that even people with high integrity fall off the pedestal from time to time.

Personally, I don't need to use white lies, to keep from hurting someone's feelings.  I always think someone I love or care for is beautiful.  Even if they look like shit, the person they are is still beautiful to me and that is how I see them.  If their ass looks huge in a dress, I'm ok with telling them that too, although it usually comes out more like,  "honey, I just gotta say, that ass of yours would look way better out of that dress than in it." 



MariaB -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 11:46:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


Personally, I don't need to use white lies, to keep from hurting someone's feelings.  I always think someone I love or care for is beautiful.  Even if they look like shit, the person they are is still beautiful to me and that is how I see them.  If their ass looks huge in a dress, I'm ok with telling them that too, although it usually comes out more like,  "honey, I just gotta say, that ass of yours would look way better out of that dress than in it." 



This made me smile and you are right of course.



Lucylastic -> RE: Are some secrets, lies, and acts of disobedience forgivable? (1/2/2012 11:49:26 AM)

two thumbs up for Winsome:)



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