Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: It happened 65 years ago


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: It happened 65 years ago Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 1:39:24 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

All I know is this. Through my Father and Grandfather I know what these people are made of. If you invade my country I will die on my feet rather than serve on my knees, and I did not get that from school or anywhere else.

I got three guns and two hands so when one gets tired I can keep on going. The Germans walk in, then the Russians walk in. And then by accounts I trust more than any online source, the Germans were blamed for a whole bunch of shit the Russians did.

I know of the Polak mettle, and unfortunately I don't have it right now. Just in personal life of two individuals I knew.

You every bunch of whoever you are in the US, just remember it is folks like me who invented war. If we are ever invaded I will be among the first to die, and I will take as many of "them" with me as I possibly can. And I won't send the Women or children out to do it, I wil do it myself, with my guile and knowledge, my strategy and tactics.

If they invade you, you fight, who cares who it is ?

T

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 3:21:19 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Central and Eastern Europe is a strange place where they seem to lurch between extremes. Perhaps it's due to the constant threat from various neighbours which generates an unstable political climate.

Yes -  I agree that the Poles are a brave lot. They fought a well prepared and modern German Army with horses and in some cases stones - basically suicide assaults. But they're not without fault - witness the pogroms and the support for the expulsion of Jews from their country.

But most of this is a matter of interpretation. As an example: the Americans see the French as 'surrender monkeys' as it suits the current political climate. Yet there is no army in the history of warfare that has suffered the number of casualties as the French did in the early months of WW1 and came back to end on the victorious side. Perhaps the Russians in WW2 - but they were very much coerced into not taking a step back: "if you go forward you may survive; if you take a step back you will definitely be killed by your own" was the motto and motive of Trotsky's Red Army.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 4:49:34 AM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline 		http://www.jacksal.com/permanent_installations/kielce_memorial.html
the bloodiest peacetime pogrom of the 20th century in Europe took place in the Polish town of Kielce one year after the war ended--on July 4, 1946. The Poles killed the Jews...(read the article please)

It should be pointed out that the Soviet Government had nothing to do with this slaughter and that it was this attack that was directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of Jews going to the US and Israel. Sorry Starbuck, but no Soviets in this event.

And .lusciouslips19..the polish had the same level of dislike for Jews that most countries had in Europe. Alot of people blamed the whole war on the Jewish people, unfortunately this has in the case of some individual views not changed much. The events that happened in Poland happened all over Europe...Jews returning home to seek family and property where attacked, killed and driven off as the wealth that many had 'claimed' was not theirs and with the return of the rightful owners (not just Jews) they saw a threat to their new found wealth...so they spread rumors such as those in Kielce or roused a people who where tired from a long war to drive out a people who could be put into the role of being the cause of this war...these sorts of attacks are recorded in every country in Europe in the years following the war.

However you want to look at it, noone escaped without scars from WW2...not the Jews, the french, the english, the germans....noone. And there are heroes among every group involved in that war.


< Message edited by estah -- 8/2/2009 4:56:07 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 4:58:14 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

And Lucious...the polish had the same level of dislike for Jews that most countries had in Europe. Alot of people blamed the whole war on the Jewish people, unfortunately this has in the case of some individual views not changed much.



Not remotely accurate. The Russians believed that Jews couldn't be true patriots; likewise the Nazis (though it should be pointed out that Jews were comparatively well assimilated in Germany prior to the Nazi years).

Jews in Eastern Europe were always far more likely to be victims of violence than their counterparts in Western Europe.

As far as I'm aware there was no such thing as a 'pogrom' in England - which helps to explain the influx of Russian and Polish Jews into England from the late 19th century to WW2.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 5:00:56 AM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		I' not claiminhe polish did not often act of their own volition estah only that the difference between Poland and other countries where anti semitism was rife was that poland had a government that actively promoted and condoned violence Estah. My argument has been that anti semitism was no higher in poland an many/most othr countries not thatall polih anti semitism was instigated by the soviets. Furtherore the reason this topic has not been explored in depth in Poland s that between 1945 and 1991 the plight of jews was a taboo subject in the soviet bloc. Finally I ave argued that viewing poland negatively for these reasons is unfair and have also pointed out that were this a thread discussing the battle of the bulge or Anzio would people be unable to view the americans or british in a good light because of their treatment of, for example, blacks.

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 5:08:53 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Finally I ave argued that viewing poland negatively for these reasons is unfair and have also pointed out that were this a thread discussing the battle of the bulge or Anzio would people be unable to view the americans or british in a good light because of their treatment of, for example, blacks.



I tend to agree with your point that the Poles are not less humane than say the British. During WW1 commanders on all sides - British/French/Germans/Americans - instructed soldiers to take no prisoners and they used the motivational tool of having to give up some of their rations to prisoners. War is a decivilising force after all.

But this doesn't change the fact Jews living in Eastern Europe during the 19th and 20th centuries were the victims of violence to an extent unknown in say Britain.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 8/2/2009 5:09:45 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 5:13:17 AM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Oh absolutely I don't disagree with that Gent. But my argument is that as Eastern europe had governments that were deeply anti semetic that violence was much more prevalent. In countries like England while the sentiment was often there the ability to act on it was not.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 5:20:26 AM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline 		I removed this post because I will not put blame one anyone group. To be honest I think we should not always be drawn to the negative side of things...the poles have its heroes and its villians, as does every other group of people in the word. The people in the warsaw uprising and other uprising like it are heroes and should be remembered for that.



< Message edited by estah -- 8/2/2009 5:33:15 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 5:25:47 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Oh absolutely I don't disagree with that Gent. But my argument is that as Eastern europe had governments that were deeply anti semetic that violence was much more prevalent. In countries like England while the sentiment was often there the ability to act on it was not.


It's not accurate to argue that the same sentiment existed across these countries and it was the government's position which marked the distinction.

In places such as Russia and Poland there were a few factors which contributed toward widespread anti-semitism: aspirations of self-determination which led to cultural nationalism; a peasant society steeped in magic and mythology that enabled a certain view of Judaism; an unstable socio-political climate which enabled extreme thinking. These conditions didn't exist in comparatively philo-semitic countries such as England or say the Netherlands for that matter due to geography and a history of prosperity and more liberal thought.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 5:26:08 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		Perhaps Poland is not more antisemetic than other places of Eastern Europe and russia. I dont know. I just know of the countless stories of theft and hatred. The reason I mentioned this ws the O.P. was a history lesson and people were saying how brave the poles were. I felt the need to mention the seamy belly of the history unspoken.  Also the deep antisemetism went back way further than the Soviet Occupation. Though no doubt, the Soviet Union and perhaps Russia today is antisemetic. I do not know if the law changed, but the Soviet Union/Russia did not recognize Russian jews as citizens

But the O.P. was about Polish history, not Russian history.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 8/2/2009 5:27:37 AM >

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 5:32:20 AM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		I agree with you gent that eastern europe was more virulent in it's anti semitism than it's western counterparts [at least at the time.]
No-one has denied the anti semitism in poland lucious i've only been pointing out it is unfair to single them out. As for the thread it was a history lesson about the warsaw uprising, a battle in which the polish acted exceedingly bravely. It's not necessary to mention that they were also anti semetic unless on a thread detailing the battle of britain and the bravery of the  pilots one felt the need to make the caveat that the british treated black people extremely poorly. 

(in reply to lusciouslips19)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 5:36:29 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

There are a few cases of small groups of jews being killed in England during the war for being Jewish, but the English had a great way of dealing with the Jews arriving in England...they shipped them to camps in Australia, there are even a few films on this happening.



I would like to see a link for these if you can find them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

The english may not have killed the Jews but they did not welcome them either.



It's fair to say that any group of people is not exactly over the moon when outsiders come in with the potential of undercutting the host people's labour opportunities.

Yet - as per the reasons given in my previous post - England was comparatively philo-semitic. This is shown in that countries such as England (and Germany prior to the Nazi regime) Jews were well assimilated and were able to rise to prominent positions in society in far greater numbers than Russian and Polish Jews.

During the Russian Civil War - almost 2 million Jews left the country fleeing pogroms organised by both White and Red Russians. That is unheard of over this way.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 6:06:24 AM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline 		HMS Dunera was famous for carryng Jews from England to Australia (at the time they left England they did not know where they where heading, although some had been told Canada where they  hoped to rejoin family), there is even a film about it...Dunera Boys.

The original intention of my post was to point out that no country is free of blame, but they all have their heros.

You compare Western and Eastern Europe and forget that Western Europe is in many ways more developed them Eastern Europe...Russia was going through their civilisation decades after Western European countries had had theirs...compare their social development and the structure of economy and you will see that Russia is doing to certain groups what Western Europeans did a few centuries ago...the difference is the way the various countries developed internally. Russia, Poland is doing what England, France etc have done in the past. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_persecution

The physical attacks on Jews are not occuring as often today in Western Europe, but there is a centuries long history of the persecution.



< Message edited by estah -- 8/2/2009 6:11:44 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 7:13:22 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I agree with you gent that eastern europe was more virulent in it's anti semitism than it's western counterparts [at least at the time.]
No-one has denied the anti semitism in poland lucious i've only been pointing out it is unfair to single them out. As for the thread it was a history lesson about the warsaw uprising, a battle in which the polish acted exceedingly bravely. It's not necessary to mention that they were also anti semetic unless on a thread detailing the battle of britain and the bravery of the  pilots one felt the need to make the caveat that the british treated black people extremely poorly. 


I saw the O.P. as being about Warsaw itself and the remanants of the war in the buildings. Not specifically about the uprising. Personally when I think about bravery in its futility, I think about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 7:18:08 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

I removed this post because I will not put blame one anyone group. To be honest I think we should not always be drawn to the negative side of things...the poles have its heroes and its villians, as does every other group of people in the word. The people in the warsaw uprising and other uprising like it are heroes and should be remembered for that.




I would tend to disagree with this sentiment. The Jewish people have a Day of Rememberance. Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it. So we should remember not only the heroes, but also the horrors.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 7:46:12 AM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline 		lusciouslips...I lost family on the allies and axle sides and I also lost jewist family in ww2 so I am not going to forget. I said we should not 'always' focus on the negative things. War is something that brings the best and worse out in people and so often when someone draws attention to the brave efforts of people, someone always brings out the horrors and the best parts of people fade into the background. I never said we should forget history, I said we should also honor the heroes...There is a very big difference.



(in reply to lusciouslips19)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 8:13:08 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		I never said we should not remember the heroes. I said we should honor them but not forget the horrors either. Both sides have weight and should be looked at.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 8/2/2009 8:20:40 AM >

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 8:45:34 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: estah
To be honest I think we should not always be drawn to the negative side of things...

quote:

ORIGINAL: estah
The people in the warsaw uprising and other uprising like it are heroes and should be remembered for that.


What she said.

Pirate

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 10:30:34 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

The english may not have killed the Jews but they did not welcome them either.



Then I suggest you check out the history of the city of Leeds in West Yorkshire. Up until the early part of the 20th century it was just another industrial town somewhat overshadowed by its neighbour Bradford.

When there were pogroms on Jews in Russia and Eastern Europe Jewish refugees headed west. They sailed from Rotterdam to Hull, where they were transferred to trains to Leeds, where they changed to other trains to Liverpool for a ship to take them across the Atlantic to the States.

However many stayed in Leeds forming what was to become one of the largest Jewish communities outside Israel which caused the rapid expansion of Leeds into the city it is today.


_____________________________

CM's Resident Lyricist
also Facebook
http://stella.baker.tripod.com/
50NZpoints
Q2
Simply Q

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/2/2009 12:20:10 PM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for that Stella. Now one more place on my list of wants in trvel to the UK.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: It happened 65 years ago Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094