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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 7:37:34 AM

Starbuck09

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And the post war feeling was no different in Poland than many other countries lucious. Using this to fuel negative feelings toward Poland is deeply wrong.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 7:47:44 AM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

And the post war feeling was no different in Poland than many other countries lucious. Using this to fuel negative feelings toward Poland is deeply wrong.

I cited sources that refute this statement and can list lots of other books of first hand accounts that show your statement to not be true. People did not face the same problems upon their return to other countries.

I am in no way fueling anything. People here know that I am not like that. I am talking about a part of history that is glossed over.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 7:57:21 AM

Starbuck09

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THe difference in treatment [though not feeling] of jews in post war Poland came about largely, as I said, from the occupation of he Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was deeply anti semetic and did not want a population in its sphere of influence that focused attention away from it's own suffering. It was official soviet policy for example to refer to all liberated concentration camps as containing prisoners of war only they did not mention the jewish plight. Anti semitism was no higher in Poland than in other countries the difference was that poland was a vassal stae of a goverenment that was anti semetic. Forgive me lucious it appears you are in part using this to fuel a negative impression of Poland as you have already stated that you cannot view those who fought in the warsaw uprising in the same way that others can. Do you have the same inhibition for the soldiers who fought in the D.Day landings at ~anzio El Alamein and countless others because of Britian and America's treatment of say blazck people in the post war period?

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 7:58:29 AM

Rule

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FR:

Who and how and when was this anti-jewish sentiment in Poland (and Russia) incited?

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 8:00:49 AM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

THe difference in treatment [though not feeling] of jews in post war Poland came about largely, as I said, from the occupation of he Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was deeply anti semetic and did not want a population in its sphere of influence that focused attention away from it's own suffering. It was official soviet policy for example to refer to all liberated concentration camps as containing prisoners of war only they did not mention the jewish plight. Anti semitism was no higher in Poland than in other countries the difference was that poland was a vassal stae of a goverenment that was anti semetic. Forgive me lucious it appears you are in part using this to fuel a negative impression of Poland as you have already stated that you cannot view those who fought in the warsaw uprising in the same way that others can. Do you have the same inhibition for the soldiers who fought in the D.Day landings at ~anzio El Alamein and countless others because of Britian and America's treatment of say blazck people in the post war period?

You are wrong. I believe you should go read some literature by survivors.
Here is one to start with. Personal accounts of peoples struggles/

After the Holocaust by Howard Greenfeld

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 8:02:36 AM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

FR:

Who and how and when was this anti-jewish sentiment in Poland (and Russia) incited?

Thats a question best left to the historians. Lots of historical literature on it.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 8:03:04 AM

Starbuck09

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Which part of that post is wrong Lucious?
Do you believe that the soviet union was not antisemetic?
Do you believe that Poland was not a vassal state of the Soviet Union?
Do you believe that other countries had extremely negative attitudes towards those of jewish faith?

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 8:04:49 AM

Starbuck09

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As and addition I am not claiming there was no polish anti semitism, there was plenty but that is not what I am arguing.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 8:08:26 AM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Which part of that post is wrong Lucious?
Do you believe that the soviet union was not antisemetic?
Do you believe that Poland was not a vassal state of the Soviet Union?
Do you believe that other countries had extremely negative attitudes towards those of jewish faith?

The Antisemetism in Poland was not tied to the Soviet Union.

I am not saying that there was not antisemitism elsewhere. WHat I am talking about is the violence and hatred toward the jews upon trying to return to their homes in Poland was something that did not happen elsewhere to the same degree. There are countless accounts of it.

If you are truly interested in the subject there is a vast amount of literature on the subject.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 8/1/2009 8:10:24 AM >

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 8:14:22 AM

Starbuck09

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I did not say that the anti semitism in Poland was tied to the Soviet Union it had been there for hundred of years no different to Britian France e.t.c. The difference was that after the war Poland was a vassal state of a government that actively promoted and acted upon anti semitism as they conflated jewry with the intelligentsia which they believed reactionary. Violence against jews was encouraged by the communists. The reason this has not been deeply explored in Poland was again as they were a conquered nation which was cruelly opressed by the soviet union such literature was banned until the fall of communism in 91. You must not allow this to influence your opinion of Poland as that is wrong Lucious. Like ~I said to you see the battles of Britain and America in the same light?

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 8:15:45 AM

Starbuck09

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I am well versed in this topic lucious my opinions do not come from ignorance.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 8:28:51 AM

Starbuck09

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I replied to your email lucious.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 10:57:38 AM

lusciouslips19

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This is the point I am making. Regardless of the influences and why things happened, they happened. The Nazis after their war crimes said they were just following orders. Regardless, what happened, happened. We all need to take responsibility for our history. Even me. Poland did much good to end the war. So whether you say they are not responsible for their treatment of te returning refugees, they still participated and people are individually responsible. I am in know way advocating hatreds of Poland. Only that they have in their history some unsavory things they are responsible for and should be a part of the history they teach.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 11:46:34 AM

Starbuck09

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They are indeed responsible but I have never said they were not lucious. My argument has been that the reason this topic has not been explored in depth in Poland is because it was banned and taboo due to the soviet union's rule of poland. It is not due to the polish being unwilling t look at parts of their history that were unsavoury. That being the case there is no justification for anyone viewing poland negatively today jewish or not. Poland certainly has unpleasant aspects of it's history as do all countries. The only reason I replied to your post in the first place was because you said you could not feel the same about the warsaw uprising as others. Like I sad do you feel the same way about other allied countries and their battles.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 1:05:50 PM

lusciouslips19

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I do not view them the same as the other countries. Germany has gone out of their way to make amends by strong relations to jews and treaties with Isreal. Poland broke ties with Israel to support the arabs against them in 1967 and is now finally reestablishing. But there are other places that are looked on with a bitter pill also. The banking industry of the Neutral country of Switzerland who took the jews money in bank accounts but never gave it back when they came to collect. Others should have made repirations and never did. So it wasnt just the antisemitism, it was theft of properties too. But it was in Poland where those living in their houses
spat at them and told them they were sorry Hitler didnt finish the job.

There were righteous christains who saved the lives of many and these people are honored by our people. Some german, polish and many Europeans. Along with the Dutch people who fought for their jewish population. The Dutch have a monument in their name honoring them and their efforts.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 8/1/2009 1:17:23 PM >

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 2:09:19 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Wow, if I were alive and living in Poland then after the Allies subdued the Germans I would have gotten a large amount of heavily armed people together and headed for un-armed Germany. Just the "Irish" in me I guess. lol
But I'm very surprised that Poles, French and others didn't do that and get some "genocide" on some German asses after the war was over
"Ordered us destroyed huh?". "Now it' your turn!"

That was the problem in the first place. If the after math of WWI hadn't crippled Germany so much, the disperation of Hitler and the Nazi party in charge most likly wouldn't have happened. The after math of WWI was what made Europe think that Germany diserved to start attacking other countries. Putting Germany from its knees down to its stomach would just ultimatly lead to WWIII.

Fangs, I didn't mean in any "national" sense just a bunch of murderous hordes from the East getting some "git back."
You know the old rape, murder, pilage, burn thang!

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 2:24:24 PM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Wow, if I were alive and living in Poland then after the Allies subdued the Germans I would have gotten a large amount of heavily armed people together and headed for un-armed Germany. Just the "Irish" in me I guess. lol
But I'm very surprised that Poles, French and others didn't do that and get some "genocide" on some German asses after the war was over
"Ordered us destroyed huh?". "Now it' your turn!"

That was the problem in the first place. If the after math of WWI hadn't crippled Germany so much, the disperation of Hitler and the Nazi party in charge most likly wouldn't have happened. The after math of WWI was what made Europe think that Germany diserved to start attacking other countries. Putting Germany from its knees down to its stomach would just ultimatly lead to WWIII.

Fangs, I didn't mean in any "national" sense just a bunch of murderous hordes from the East getting some "git back."
You know the old rape, murder, pilage, burn thang!

You might want to take a look at the Russian occupation zone then. There is a reason the monument for the Unnamed Russian Soldier has been called the Unnamed Rapist by the pople.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 4:17:23 PM

Starbuck09

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Germany has gone out of it's way to make ammends because it was responsible for the holocaust. Poland has no such guilt staining its conscience. Poland was conquered by the soviet union luscious and it's policies between 1945 and 1991 were not it's own they were dictated by the Kremlin. If you think there were no people in other countries that were not ''sorry hitler did'nt finish the job'' then you are mistaken. Your view of Poland is mistaken lucious. Equating Poland's ''guilt'' in any way with that of Germany's is enormously offensive.

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 4:20:17 PM

Starbuck09

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I would also point out that cutting off diplomatic ties with israel in favour of the arab states [irrespective of it being soviet doctrine] would be in no way an indication of anti semitism. with Is

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RE: It happened 65 years ago - 8/1/2009 4:22:05 PM

Starbuck09

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I agree Sandra with Sandra as well. Frankly with respect popeye as a good starting point read Berlin by Anthony Beevor.

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