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RE: Questioning Competency - 6/22/2009 5:14:08 PM

ShaharThorne

Posts: 11071
Joined: 2/24/2009
From: Somewhere in TX
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With stupidity and insanity, you get....ME!!! *dances around*

Seriously, I missed the drama that caused this thread to be created and makes me wonder if I would of replied to it. Least I will do is muffle myself, worse is a tongue lashing with fangs out (so I can take a bite).

At least I have my insanity under the control of meds. The stupidity on the other hand...tucked in deep inside, not wanting to show up unless necessary as a blonde moment...LOL!

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Post #: 21

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/22/2009 6:42:22 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I don't want my relationship, nor what we do within it, judged by anyone ELSE who thinks that we're not *sane*. And yes...there ARE people who think that we have an extreme and unhealthy relationship (strangely enough, bdsm folk, not vanilla ones).. It's outside of their comfort zone and I don't expect everyone to *get it*.

Yes, yes, there are stupid, naive, incredibly dumb people dabbling in everything....and I'VE been one of them at various times.

No matter WHAT I do.....I am almost certain that I'll be seen as slightly insane or stupid by SOMEONE, somewhere.

I prefer to be my own brand of stupid.....and left alone to get on with it.

I read certain posts and think * What ARE they thinking??*......especially when it's things that the average 15yr old could grasp.....but to have *sanity* as a requirement?.....I'd be watching for the first *sane* stone to be cast.

The way I live isn't a *group* anymore than being a parent, or a granny is.....I'm not *ALL INCLUSIVE* about anything........I keep what I like and leave what I don't.

agirl

I really enjoyed this post, agirl. Well said. And heavens knows I've done my own share of "stupid." I'm guessing everyone on this message board has, at some point.

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Post #: 22

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/22/2009 6:52:41 PM

BarnacleBill

Posts: 51
Joined: 6/12/2009
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"Stupid is as Stupid Does!" Nuff said!

Stupid is something most can get over with help from others. Sadly some will stay trapped that way?

The only bad stupidity is when you endanger others health that should not be allowed ever.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 23

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/22/2009 7:02:20 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This thread was inspired by our very own....... Moderator Eleven!

I recently received this reply to a question that I asked:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorEleven
Stupidity does not violate our rules, a fact that many users should be thankful for.

XI

Now, I got to thinking about this last night. Truth be told, I found this to be an acceptable answer to the question I posted. Yes, this is the net and anyone can come up with any pointless drivel that they might be so inspired to write. Not an issue. No big deal.

Yet, in My mind I was thinking, that's fine for a message board, but what about real life? These same folks who come up with these scenarios are also in the real world out there somewhere. Some of which, many of us would like to slap upside the head with a clue by four, if not in a physical sense. If they do really have the lack of intelligence and/or mental capacity to think that all females who wear boots are Dommes, or they want to be grafted with a pig's nose, or they really have to come to a message board to ask if it's ok for someone to give them a STD, can they possibly be competent enough to participate in wiitwd?

Where exactly is the line between groups being all inclusive, yet having to wonder about individuals as crazy as a loon? Should sanity be a requirement for participation? How do you feel about those who can not make the distinction between reality and fantasy in your local groups? What about for personal play partners? Have you ever questioned your own sanity yourself while being involved in BDSM?

I had carrots for breakfast....but I've wanted a windshield destined for greatness since I was able to see past a long tall Sally.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 24

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/22/2009 11:18:00 PM

janiebelle

Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
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FR

The crazy people live among us. Some are more obvious than others. Some are more tolerable than others. Same goes for the stupid people.
It is stupid to expect logic from lunatics or morons. They are nearly impossible to manage, predict, or understand. Sitting around trying to figure them out is a waste of time.
So, I don't spend much energy on trying to identify (let alone target for intervention) every psycho and nitwit I encounter, either online or in the world of flesh and bone.
YMMV
j

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 25

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/22/2009 11:42:55 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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I think sanity or lack there of should only be important if a persons irrational behaviour is destructive to themselves or others. And of course if the irrational ramblings are interfering with your relationship or disrupting the Internet experience.

I've often found brilliant people to be a half bubble or so off... I would hate to loose their input just because they're nuts.

Butch

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Post #: 26

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/22/2009 11:56:52 PM

WyldHrt

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Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

I've often found brilliant people to be a half bubble or so off... I would hate to loose their input just because they're nuts.

We often disagree on some things, Butch, but this made me LMAO because it is SO true!

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Post #: 27

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/23/2009 12:29:35 AM

GYPZYQUEEN

Posts: 730
Joined: 4/14/2009
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OP: and others...

sooooooooo Van Gogh couldn't post here?...Plath...?Woolfe?...

never underestimate the stimulation of eccentricity

"IF I am poor I am called insane..If I am rich I am called eccentric" me

GQ

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 28

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/23/2009 4:35:05 AM

IronBear

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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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If you do unusual and unexpected things badly you are called "The Village Idiot" or Insane and oft pitied. If you do unusual and unexpected things well with flair and class, you are called eccentric and often venerated or even rewarded as respected.

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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Post #: 29

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/23/2009 4:36:46 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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I've read through the answers a few times now and I have to say that I'm rather impressed with some of the responses. I'm very much drawn to addressing most of them individually. I may chose to do so later.

However, I absolutely can not resist the last one by GQ. Since you were good enough to bring up Van Gogh, it lends an interesting twist. By all historical accounts, the man was depressed, mad, and quite insane. It could be argued that said insanity is exactly what made him such a talented artist. His earlier, darker works could certainly add to this theory.

Now, would such an individual be competent to participate in wiitwd? Actually, I would say yes. I would think he could make a rational decision to endure pain and suffering. In fact, it might have helped him to alleviate his own. Perhaps a good beating now and again would have provided him with the type of release that could have possibly prevented his own suicide.

Yet I would have to say that not all versions of insanity are the same. While Van Gogh would be an instance of one that had a type of madness that might fit in very well with wiitwd, there are others that do not. There are absolutely persons on this planet that do not have the mental capacity to consent. Those who do not have the ability to separate fantasy from reality fall into this category. I'm sure that for some, the fantasy of being owned and engaging in S/m play is simply fascinating...... Until such a thing exists, and they find themselves gagged, beaten and bruised, not understanding the kinds of things that are happening to them.

*Cue the Twilight Zone music*

Give such an individual an hour of recuperation after the scene, lend the confusion of what happens when reality smashes the fantasy, and put a simple device such as a cell phone in hand. How is that all inclusive bit looking then?

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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Post #: 30

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/23/2009 10:06:41 AM

Born2BMasochist

Posts: 42
Joined: 6/19/2009
Status: offline

Ok. I just had to jump in on this one.
There is a shirt my husband wears states " Stupidity is not a crime, so you are free to go" The countless people that state, nice shirt buddy. Are these the smart ones and the ones that say I dont get it! are these the stupid ones. Maybe they are not stupid but lack comprehension. I think stupid is a stupid word. Who are we to judge what people are capable of doing ? Dont get me wrong, I would not get involved with anyone with views on a subject that does not fit mine. However the truth is, there are many out there they are compatible with. Birds of a feather flock together, Right?
This brings up a conversation my husband and I had yesterday. Ever since I could remember I can adapt to conversations around me. If someone has a high IQ and well educated I can talk to them very intelligible. But if someones IQ is lower, I can adapt so I dont sound like I am trying to intimidate them with my words or the things I say or think. I can be very philisophical at times but my husband can not so I reserve those conversations for the people who can think at that level, But that does not mean I call my husband stupid or tell him he is stupid cause he can not conversate at this level.
Another scenerio comes to mind of a person I IM on occasion. I have talked to him on the phone and he can talk, put sentences together, very bright person. But he can not type worth anything in the world. He places verbs where nouns should be and nouns where verbs should be. Is he stupid? Does he lack knowledge? I do not believe so. Be careful about answering yes to these questions, scenerios, you could be judging.
Ok so I guess I kinda just wrote what I was feeling when reading this thread, if you could not follow, you must be STUPID! Just kidding! I really am kidding. if you could not follow it just brings me to the point of we do not think on the same level. Which is ok in the world.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 31

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/23/2009 11:11:38 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Some of my Mensa friends are completely incapable to put together a simple sentence let a lone a paragraph in writing whilst a few others who come to mind, are totally unable to do the simplest commonsensical, logical practical thing outside their fields of expertise, to the point where they make the Village Idiot look an absolute genius. Intelligence no matter how you measure it has bugger all to do with common sense nor practicality.

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Born2BMasochist)

Post #: 32

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/23/2009 6:38:03 PM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
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FR, after read thru

One thing I notice that complicates these kinds of discussions is conflating the choice with the person, ie, making a stupid choice does not necessarily mean a stupid person, making a crazy choice does not have to mean a crazy person . . . . . Sometimes the spot indicator is telling, sometimes it's not . . . . . . I try to avoid characterizing people by their choices, ie, I try to avoid calling people stupid, crazy, et alia, even when I feel like that is indicated by the evidence . . . . .

& not just because of the above logic chain, but also because, in my mind, it creates a box in my head into which I'm then trying to stuff that person (from previous experience) . . . . . There's a Goethe quote that speaks to this:

Treat people as if they were what they should be, and you help them become what they are capable of becoming. - Johannn von Goethe

As to the main question of the OP, yeah, there is some level of inability to consent due to intelligence & emotional health at which BDSM interactions would squick me . . . . . Last year at Folsom I saw an s-type who clearly looked to have Down's syndrome, & I definitely felt squicky about it, as did the people I was with . . . . We did not interfere, but it has left a lingering set of questions in my mind . . . . .

On the other hand, do I have a solution? Nope . .. . . All I can do is monitor & control what I can monitor & control; for instance, I've run parties in the past, & may in the future, & I would most likely keep out those who I had such concerns about . . . . .

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Post #: 33

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/23/2009 8:03:59 PM

TANTRADD

Posts: 22
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline

I have questioned COMPENTENCY many times in many situations from work..to home..to community..government and in the BDSM world.

The hard part in the BDSM world is who are accountable..but to ourselves..??
unless in public play areas.

and then of course what about integrity like seeing the Downes syndrome person as in Kia's post..????I have to say I saw the same thing..a
Downe's syndrome woman as slave..(and could not sleep after.)

IF compentency is a COMBO of knowledge..skills..and behaviors making a person properly qualified and trained in order to master a situation or give consent then

holy shit..

what have we seen on here??? and out there in BDSM??? and I do not mean a general vague possiblity of maybe not being COMPETENT to decide..to flog..to whip..to suspend..to even have an inkling of WIIWD.
BUT the processes of the mind....the triggers..the after shocks
.
I empathize with LP..in the OP and I See beneath the annoyance at blow hard wanna bes ... a strong FEAR and upset over those who may be being hurt...trapped..subjected to all manner of shit due to INCOMPETENCE..

SOOOOOO
**SANITY should be a requirement or high functioning sanity..with intelligence
but who will gage it,,,??

**I can only hope I find sane partners..using my criteria

**I am frightened and sickened by those who cannot make a distinction between fantasy and reality and scared for those who come in their path

**I have questioned MY OWN sanity and I do have several diagnosis.
.
I however take responsiblity for what phase I am in.. and do not play when in certian
modes..if I was gaged by someone else as insane and thus incompetent to do WIIWD then I could not have gotten to be the respected Domme I have been for the last 11 years**
WE HAVE OT BE WILLING TO LOOK INTO OUR OWN processes/and our partners which requires not only intelligence but again COMPETENCE and as IRON BEAR said some MENSA are even competent so..
the circle continues.or jagged line//

T

< Message edited by TANTRADD -- 6/23/2009 8:05:31 PM >

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 34

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/24/2009 2:25:42 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Yet I would have to say that not all versions of insanity are the same. While Van Gogh would be an instance of one that had a type of madness that might fit in very well with wiitwd, there are others that do not. There are absolutely persons on this planet that do not have the mental capacity to consent. Those who do not have the ability to separate fantasy from reality fall into this category. I'm sure that for some, the fantasy of being owned and engaging in S/m play is simply fascinating...... Until such a thing exists, and they find themselves gagged, beaten and bruised, not understanding the kinds of things that are happening to them.

*Cue the Twilight Zone music*

Give such an individual an hour of recuperation after the scene, lend the confusion of what happens when reality smashes the fantasy, and put a simple device such as a cell phone in hand. How is that all inclusive bit looking then?

The fact remains that people can and do whatever they wish to, get involved with whatever they want to, try out weird things, dangerous things and bdsm isn't some kind of *club* where you can *include* or *not include* anyone or anything.

There are always going to be people who get involved in things that THEY, personally, aren't equipped to cope with, that they don't fully understand and that haven't put enough thought into and get into sticky situations because of that.

I'm not *included* because there's nothing to be included IN.

agirl

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 35

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/24/2009 8:06:30 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

While I absolutely appreciate your opinion, agirl, that might not be entirely true for everyone. I'm all for anyone with the honest ability to consent to go out there, get their kink on and have a blast doing it. This is where the vast majority of folks reside. Oh, I do certainly agree with you that most of us at one point or another have done dumb things. That's not really where I'm coming from.

It's My firm belief that certain activities should only be done between consenting adults. I don't include non adults in that statement. The reason for that is a non mature brain of a certain age does not have the capacity to consent. (If that wasn't the dance around TOS of the century, I'd like to know what is.) Pretty much the same as why a person has to be a certain age to sign a contract or hold a credit card.

Here's where the gray area comes in. There are absolutely folks who are living in grown up bodies, but due to illness or injury, will never have a grown up mind. These would be folks without the capacity to consent. Somebody asked earlier who should judge such a thing, so for the sake of argument, let's say any adult needing a legal guardian for their own well being and legal decisions fits the description. Someone bringing such a guest to an event could bring a host of legal issues.

BDSM itself may not be a *club* as you put it, but there are clubs and munch groups who hold private parties that can be associated with it. Many of which have in there terms that no alcohol can be served during play because of the very reason that it changes a person's ability to consent. What I'm attempting to look at is the possibility of those who don't mentally have the ability to consent in the first place.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 36

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/24/2009 8:14:13 AM

LaTigresse

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Joined: 1/15/2006
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LadyPact, per the potential of a non consenting, able, adult. For me, I just couldn't attend an event that tollerated it. If I was sponsoring the event, it would not be tollerated.

It is just one of those issues I feel strongly about and would not care what others think about my disapproval. I've been in similar situations with gatherings involving underage drinking and other behaviour I was not comfortable with. I upset people and have lost friends, and distanced family, over it. It made me sad but I will not bend my morals to accomodate anyone, not friends or family.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 37

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/24/2009 8:59:43 AM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

LadyPact, per the potential of a non consenting, able, adult. For me, I just couldn't attend an event that tollerated it. If I was sponsoring the event, it would not be tollerated.

It is just one of those issues I feel strongly about and would not care what others think about my disapproval. I've been in similar situations with gatherings involving underage drinking and other behaviour I was not comfortable with. I upset people and have lost friends, and distanced family, over it. It made me sad but I will not bend my morals to accomodate anyone, not friends or family.

Got to agree with this.
There is a down syndrome girl on the London scene. Her Master, a much older man, dresses her up in child like party dresses and has her call him daddy. I once tried to converse with her and it was obvious that her mental capacity was no more than an average 9 year old.
We made a very firm decision that if she/they were to turn up at our club then they would be turned away. Fortunately they never have.
I find things like this incredibly disturbing and I think I speak for many of the people on the London scene that have seen them.
People have tried to find out who she is, who is her carer and who the hell is this man that is obviously taking advantage but to no avail.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 6/24/2009 9:00:39 AM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/24/2009 9:14:25 AM

GYPZYQUEEN

Posts: 730
Joined: 4/14/2009
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OP: and etc..

Last night I go thinking about this more and I thought about when I taught school..
many of the ppl who had IQ's of 75-80...requiring an aide..care etc..
do not LOOK
how we may think a person unable to give consent "looks".(.trying to say this without being rude.)
They do not appear to have lack of competence until in certain situations..so hwo can one gage..at play parties...etc??? WHO??

The ethics and public policy here can come into play but beyond that we have ourselves to discern and decide wheather to intervene..check things out further

I feel if someone has a child like.."incompetent"".. mind..nto capable of knowing consent... then I am responsible to care about another human being..
I have made it my business and mission several times to have such things addressed..in many CREATIVE ways.

I have been called shit disturber..bitch...etc..
YES I AM thank you

GQ

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 39

RE: Questioning Competency - 6/24/2009 11:05:15 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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I've been speaking in reference to the OP, which seemed to be more about people that tend to make seemingly daft, irrational and unhelpful decisions for themselves ....not people that are actually mentally deficient enough not to be deemed able to consent at ALL.

That's really a different kettle of fish...and not one I've seen enough of, or thought enough about to have a decent opinion on.

I left the *club and munch* aspect aside, as there's the opportunity and ability to regulate to a degree. The OP didn't appear to be specifically about those.

agirl

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 40

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