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RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 3:53:14 AM

daddysliloneds

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i detest when someone sets me up to fail, as you appear to be doing in your 'honest' communication; if it were honest, you would tell the person you're talking to that you'd like to hear about their vulnerabilities, shortcomings, etc., not expect them to read between the lines...

you are passive-aggressively trying to get information on them rather than to 'really-honestly' let them know of your faults.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 41

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 6:21:35 AM

HalloweenWhite

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I honestly think the direct approach is best. When I first met someone through another site she was full of questions;some were personal but I didn't see it as an attack-I saw it as genuinely being curious. And I loved talking about Myself and getting all the attention lol.

I think being direct is best and if peop[le think it's an attack then that's their fault, not Yours-they're probably too wrapped up in themselves to think it could be anything else, or maybe they're just not smart enough?. Also, I think most people aren't mind readers-they have to be told what's on Your mind in order to know.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 42

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 8:22:34 AM

CreativeDominant

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Interesting subject.

Count me in on the side of those who say that I don't do "testing" of the submissive, at least in areas that are important to the emotional/mental aspects of the dynamic. Since I also seek a submissive who is going to be my romantic partner, I don't do testing of them in the emotional/mental realms of the relationship either.

Focus made a good point, stated in a softer way by porcelain...if you want to know something, ask. But remember, we all have our own time table for revealing ourselves to others. Just because you feel comfortable with revealing something about your inner self does not mean that your partner is at that same comfort level with you...we all progress at different rates. There are several submissives and dominants that are friends of mine. Since I feel that the "getting to know you" stage is something that is ongoing, oftentimes even going on once you are in a relationship level already, then there is the opportunity for me to observe what I have observed all my life...some people do not admit to flaws readily; they have them and they admit to them but they don't care to discuss them until the relationship is deep and what they feel to be lasting. Other people will discuss their own flaws with perfect strangers. The not-wanting to respond in kind has nothing to do with "being real" or with being honest, it has to do with each person's own internal braking mechanism.

I have flaws...plenty of them. And while it is true that part of the reason I don't bring them all out for inspection is because of a certain feeling about the incongruence of the "dominant Alan-Alda" type, the majority of the reason I don't bring them all out is because it just ISN'T necessary. There is one flaw/problem/bad area I am thinking of in particular in regards to myself that I don't reveal to many. It is something that I've shared with my brother...he has never used it against me. It is something that I shared with my ex-wife...she did use it against me. I shared it with one of my ex-submissives. It did affect her view of me as her dominant. So tell me...is it necessary or even good, especially when you are the "leader" but perhaps even for the submissive (in certain areas), to feel like you must share everything that is imperfect within you?

I don't think so...and anyone who expects me to give "tit for tat" when they share a vulnerability is going to be disappointed in most instances.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 43

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 8:29:25 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whenready

I suspect that Doms may be more willing to admit to imperfections further down the line than subs. I have no evidence other than anecdotal to back up this suspicion.

I doubt it has anything to do with dom and sub. In my experience, people who are secure with themselves are also fairly open about their failings. Insecure people are not. Whether you are the leader or follower in the equation doesn't really matter.

From my own standpoint, yeah.. I think I'm all that. Which means I'm also willing to discuss the areas in which I suck pretty frankly when it's of value to do so.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Whenready)

Post #: 44

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 9:14:02 AM

missturbation

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When it comes to the crux of discussion about personal failings / faults very few can actually come down from their ivory towers and admit them.
Funnily enough i tend to find those that say i don't suffer from 'vanity' for example are actually twice as bad as i am and i admit to it.

_____________________________

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(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 45

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 1:39:06 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I don't think so...and anyone who expects me to give "tit for tat" when they share a vulnerability is going to be disappointed in most instances.

This is the way I am. I reveal what I want to reveal when I want to. I don't do the * I'm SO not like that!*, when someone shares a vulnerability or flaw.........but I won't want to be flinging mine out, just because THEY did.

agirl

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 46

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 2:05:41 PM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
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~Fast Reply~
i don't much like "litmus tests" and game-playing. Just my opinion, but i think it's dishonest.....not good when getting to know S/someone or trying to form an honest, trusting relationship. Straight-to-the-point honesty is always best imho, and O/one will find out much more real information much sooner.

i will be the first to say i am nooooot perfect, but i am very direct and will just ask directly if i want to know something...and ask O/others to be the same with me. When i was still searching, most Doms i met/corresponded with did do "testing" and apparently thought They were being very sneaky about it, acting very surprised when i'd call Them on it. lol Yes, my bullshit-detector is getting better every day and i can sniff out a test in a heartbeat. lol Now, Sir & i are very honest and direct with E/each O/other, the way W/we both like it.

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Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

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Post #: 47

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 2:37:46 PM

oceanwinds

Posts: 530
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Sigh, i have read your OP and the others posts several times, and i just dont get it. If i mention an aspect of myself that is vulnerable to me, i do it not to raise the 'bar' with another so they will tell me they can relate. I relate something not as a carrot to see what another will do with it. If someone would approach to me about how they can be 'shallow' at times , honestly i would look at them and go oh? how would one reply to that. If i tell someone that i am shy, it is a part of me that i am sharing. It's a way to let them know i'm a little bit comfortable with them. Not for them to feel obligated to rush in and tell me oh i am this and that as well, unless they wish too do so. If they do, i would hope it is genuine and just a moment of sharing, without them feeling the need to add anymore, to prove something to me.

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I know where I came from and where I am today. I am forever grateful to all that touched my life. Thank you all and especially you, Goddess.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 48

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 2:53:14 PM

DemonKia

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From: Chico, Nor-Cali
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FR, after read thru

Hmmmm, well, I am fascinated by how many have turned this into being about their own issues with the concept of 'tests' . . . . .

For me I don't see any difference between having 'litmus test' issues & having 'red flag' issues, other than the labels. Same process. Same basic underlying ideas.

As I tried to lay out in the ensuing discussion in this thread, I've tried all kinds of processes for determining whether the other person's definition of self-honesty includes revealing their own flaws, cuz for me, people who prattle on about 'honesty' but cannot easily & comfortably reveal even the most superficial & frivolous flaws are a 'hard limit' & a 'red flag', & I have no compunctions about 'forcing the issue' -- same as any other 'red flag' characteristic or behavior. . . .

(& when I go 'fishing' for some admission of flaws, vulnerabilities, et alia, I generally stick to the frivolous & superficial, to those things that it wouldn't really 'cost' the other to admit to . . . . . . )

I'm willing to admit to my flaws & I've noticed the pattern that plenty will take advantage of one person's vulnerability to display their own corresponding lack of vulnerability, & that I find the whole thing amusing within this context of trying to 'get to know one another' better . . . . & there is absolutely no need for me to 'set this up', this pattern tends to unfold all on its own, frequently in places I have no 'control' over the conversational dynamics. Hell, I can watch this pattern unfold between two other people having a conversation . . . . . . .

As a top / domly type I've found that sharing about my failings & flaws is a powerful way to connect with bottoms & s types, that it can create a 'safe space' for sharing vulnerability & trust . . . . .

Of course, the 'perfect' types (on whatever side of the slash) tend to ultimately find me unpalatable, & vice versa . . . . . & I am regularly guilty of hurrying prospective admirers into that space where they finally quit using me as a display screen for their own fantasies & notice the 'true' obnoxious me, I'm kinda selfish that way . . . .

(This might be kinda shocking to some, but my problem isn't a lack of people wanting to be my friends, lovers, & etc, my problem is way too many want me . . . . . lol . . . . . . I spend a lot of time building walls to keep the less-suitable out; I see it as a service to them as much as me . . . . . lol)

(in reply to sweetsub1957)

Post #: 49

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 4:18:21 PM

Bella1965

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Joined: 12/12/2006
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G'afternoon all:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Anybody know what I mean?

Here you seek commiseration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Hmmmm, well, I am fascinated by how many have turned this into being about their own issues with the concept of 'tests'.

Now you're surprised when almost no one jumps onto your bandwagon. Here's the twist. It's a semi-public forum. You're playing a crap shoot when asking for opinions. Don't place your expectations or viewpoints upon others simply because they don't coincide with your own. There ~will~ be dissension. If you expected a pat on the back, you were sadly mistaken. Deal with it.

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

_____________________________

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(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 50

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 4:26:13 PM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
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LOL

Nope, I expected the usual on an internet forum & I got it, including plenty who did understand my point . .. . . .

& actually, my expectation is that less than 1% will 'get' me -- this thread far exceeded my expectations, thanks . . . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965

G'afternoon all:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Anybody know what I mean?
Here you seek commiseration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Hmmmm, well, I am fascinated by how many have turned this into being about their own issues with the concept of 'tests'.
Now you're surprised when almost no one jumps onto your bandwagon. Here's the twist. It's a semi-public forum. You're playing a crap shoot when asking for opinions. Don't place your expectations or viewpoints upon others simply because they don't coincide with your own. There ~will~ be dissension. If you expected a pat on the back, you were sadly mistaken. Deal with it.

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

(in reply to Bella1965)

Post #: 51

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/19/2009 9:49:28 PM

Jeptha

Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline

There are times when I've shared my own vulnerability in turn, when vulnerability itself seemed to be the subject at hand.

If the subject seemed to be the person sharing their vulnerability, then I might not change the subject by referring to myself.

Or if I did, it might be just to show that they are not the only freak in the world who makes mistakes or feels awkward at times.

Your vulnerability sharing sounds to me like just one variation of the kinds of bonding strategies, or gambits, that we all employ to one degree or another, which usually translate to something like "I like this (or, don't like that), how about you?"

If someone isn't forthcoming with their own foibles, though, I wouldn't equate that with lack of honesty.

I think the challenges of life can change as you age, so, while you still may have compassion, you may not feel someone's struggle in the same or similar way that they do.

Of course, it doesn't have to be an age thing. Sometimes we just are coming from different paths.

As a guy, too, I think at some point in your trajectory you do get the messages that it is unbecoming to talk about yourself overly much, so that's something that has to be processed as well.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 5/19/2009 9:50:47 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 52

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/20/2009 7:03:00 AM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

I'm willing to admit to my flaws & I've noticed the pattern that plenty will take advantage of one person's vulnerability to display their own corresponding lack of vulnerability, & that I find the whole thing amusing within this context of trying to 'get to know one another' better . . . . & there is absolutely no need for me to 'set this up', this pattern tends to unfold all on its own, frequently in places I have no 'control' over the conversational dynamics. Hell, I can watch this pattern unfold between two other people having a conversation . . . . . . .

As a top / domly type I've found that sharing about my failings & flaws is a powerful way to connect with bottoms & s types, that it can create a 'safe space' for sharing vulnerability & trust . . . . .

Two things I agree with.

Some people DO use the fact that the other person has shared/shown a vulnerability to bolster themselves..............and yes, it is a wasted effort in *getting to know you*. But this type of person isn't usually IN the getting to know YOU..........but engaged in getting to *show themselves* They are often focussed far more on the impression they hope THEY are creating.

When it comes to creating a *safe place* for sharing , I also agree..........In ALL relationships I've had, of ANY type, the give and take of sharing and showing takes place in a drip-drip fashion. It's the bricks and mortar of building a trusting situation. I show you me, you show me you.

agirl

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 53

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/20/2009 3:20:32 PM

DemonKia

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From: Chico, Nor-Cali
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Exactly, agirl. We are a species that relies upon mimicry to an enormous degree . . . . . . & as such a certain amount of that less-than-verbal communication that goes on in real life situations is 'modeling behavior' . . . . . . .

& to clarify my overall point further (& unrelated to agirl's posting, below) -- typically the social situation in which this 'Honestly? I'm Perfect' paradigm unfolds is the case of the other pursuing me; I don't pursue people, I prefer to be chased . . . . . . I think I failed to specify & earlier posters were under a different impression, or at least that's the impression I've gathered in re-reading the thread . . .. . .

I see my situation as one of filtering out all the inappropriate erstwhile suitors, in which I'm quite allowed to have all the litmus tests & red flags & etc I need to maintain my boundaries . ... . .

If I was the 'chaser' in these situations, I agree that 'setting up' failure situations might be questionable in ethics, but I have no obligation other than basic politeness to those who seek to impose themselves on me . . . . . . Usually the specific situation described in my OP happens after I've been my usual very blunt & overtly obnoxious self, & the would-be pursuer is engaging in projective fantasizing stuff, rather than 'connecting' with me as a fellow human being . . . . . .

I'm really trying not to post multi-page OP's, & it's tough to anticipate what kinds of details will be necessary to convey adequate understanding . . . .. . *shrugs* . . . . Ah well, win some, lose some . . . . . lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

When it comes to creating a *safe place* for sharing , I also agree..........In ALL relationships I've had, of ANY type, the give and take of sharing and showing takes place in a drip-drip fashion. It's the bricks and mortar of building a trusting situation. I show you me, you show me you.

agirl

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 54

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/20/2009 10:40:47 PM

Andalusite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
I am regularly guilty of hurrying prospective admirers into that space where they finally quit using me as a display screen for their own fantasies & notice the 'true' obnoxious me, I'm kinda selfish that way . . . .

... I spend a lot of time building walls to keep the less-suitable out; I see it as a service to them as much as me

Hmm, when I start talking with someone and it seems to be heading in that direction, I usually just end the conversation. Sometimes you can pull them out of the cybersex/cyberBDSM/unrealistic headspace, but usually if that's the way they approach me, no amount of patience or redirection is sufficient to get them to see me as a person.

I'm finding the "testing" thing rather interesting, but I think it's peripheral, so I'm going to start a separate thread on it.

I *do* tend to share things that are or can be construed as negative or vulnerabilities, but they're not frivolous, they're things the other person actually needs to know. Usually I wait for 2 or 3 in person dates first, though, rather than getting into that kind of thing online. I have what I call my "field guide" or "user manual to me," which includes both positive and negative aspects. Usually I bring it up one piece at a time, mixed in with other conversation. I don't necessarily expect guys to share similar things (or at least, I can directly ask them if necessary), but they frequently do respond with that type of thing about themselves as well.

As to the "ask what you need to know," it tends to start feeling like an interrogation scene or something, even if the other person willingly answers each one! I want more of a conversational flow, someone who takes what I have to say and builds upon it and is actually interesting to talk with!

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 55

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/21/2009 3:46:47 AM

frankieboy52

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Joined: 4/29/2009
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well i guess this should be my mantra from this point forward....i am not shallow..really i am not...but i am not that deep either...now think about that twice before you go to bed..and if you do think about it twice you shouldn't be allowed to go to bed(persoanl sleep time not sex).

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 56

RE: Honestly? I'm Perfect. - 5/21/2009 9:58:41 AM

Jeptha

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Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

...I *do* tend to share things that are or can be construed as negative or vulnerabilities, but they're not frivolous, they're things the other person actually needs to know...

I definitely lead off rather quickly with what can be construed as my limitations (tho maybe this morning I'll call them "boundaries" or "preferences" just to put a more positive spin on it), because I don't want the other person to have unrealistic expectations.

But what Kia mentioned in the OP seemed more of a conversational style; I've noticed how often we share negative things in general. When someone asks us how we are, we respond "Good, but..." and then we follow up with bullet points about whatever ails us or isn't working right, etc.

I think this is a habitual tendency. There are people who endeavor to go for a certain length of time without complaining about anything. They report that it is quite difficult and requires a lot of practice before it can be achieved, if it can be done at all.

I referred to "bonding strategies" after I'd worked with a woman who chronically complained about others. After a while I realized it was her way of trying to forge intimacy; by created little shared spaces of conspiracy via ridicule.

It was another angle on bonding over sharing negatives.

Better self-deprecating humor than other-deprecating humor, though.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 5/21/2009 10:32:22 AM >

_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 57

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