quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Thank you for sharing that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You know, I don't usually get into the discussions on the perception of power, but I have to admit, that one was pretty good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LyraLaLaurie

Bookmarked to reign in my brattiness when it surfaces.

quote:

For certain, surrender can be coerced. Doms who go that route may possibly succeed in the short run with inexperienced submissives, but they will fail in the long run and be despised for it.

quote:

The art of being a Dominant rests in making the compelling case to the submissive that surrendering to you is what they actually want to do.

quote:

"Have you ever had a little baby wrap their tiny fingers around your finger? Ever try to get your finger back? THAT is power."

"Of course you are vastly stronger than the baby, yet, for the life of you, you can not imagine withdrawing your finger. Real power is given, never taken."

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessTeaze

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant
Some more thoughts on kink and kink philosophy...

Power is something that is granted. It is not something that is seized.

Real power in BDSM is when the dominant has sufficiently *earned* the trust and respect of the submissive so that they *want* to obey. That is the art of being a Dominant.

Very well said.
And very good explaned with those examples.

People can learn from this thread.


Thank You for sharing Your thoughts.

Warm Greetingz

GoddezzT`

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant

What you are saying is of course correct. However, it does not negate my points. It is only the dark flipside of what I am saying.

Whether or not people make the terrible descision to grant power to a predator does not change that they are granting that power.

If you have a submissive who, because of her own inner demons, always chooses the truly abusive slime bag who will always put her into a private hell, she is still choosing to obey him. She is still granting him control. The fact that she makes a terrible choice in who to give it to does not change the fact that she is still granting him that control. In principle, she could walk. In principle, she could call the cops.

quote:

Battered women syndrome is a very real and a very tragic thing. I understand that there are many reasons why she may feel completely powerless. Even though I have no desire to belittle it in any way, or to take away from the pain or the difficulty these ladies feel, those reasons are not nescessarily good or even true reasons. The fact that she really does have other options that she can not see, for whatever reason, does not change.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Also realize that power isn't always given by the people that said power is being inflicted upon. And sometimes power isn't given, it merely is.

quote:

"Have you ever had a little baby wrap their tiny fingers around your finger? Ever try to get your finger back? THAT is power."

"Of course you are vastly stronger than the baby, yet, for the life of you, you can not imagine withdrawing your finger. Real power is given, never taken."

At the same time, someone who decides to break that baby's hand most certainly has power over the baby - power that that baby never "gave" them. There are naturally weaker and stronger parties to most transactions, and while one can certainly "give" power to the other, most often power isn't given or taken - it's acknowledged.

We in the kink community live in this fantasy bubble where power is a consensual exchange, when in the real world it most assuredly isn't. Ask the Cherokee about the Trail of Tears. Ask the African Americans about the triangle trade. Ask any Ukranian girl raised in a brothel as a wholely non-consensual sex-slave about power dynamics, and you won't hear any fictions about "taking" or "giving". These people know that power isn't given any more than it's taken - power simple is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant

There is a great phrase, "Such a man can only be killed. He can not be beaten."

quote:

As to the bubble that you claim we live in.... in BDSM, that "bubble" as you call it, includes consent. It inculdes notions of duty and responsibility to the mental and physical health of one's lover. When it does not, it is no longer called BDSM. It is called aggrivated rape. Society has properly harsh laws about such things. If one believes that power "just is" without boundaries, and one ignores the social contract, then one does so at their own peril.

quote:

The fact that many places in the FSU have broken down the social contract is a sad and tragic thing. I do not deny the suffering of girls forced into prostitution. I deny that they like it or think it is a good thing. I deny that they would not want to kill the bastards doing it to them if they could.

I also do not deny that over time, people can surrender their own minds utterly, it becomes easier to check out then to face the pain. That is called being broken by torture. I agree that is a real thing. However, they still made that final choice - however much we may sympathize with why they did it.

quote:

I would hope that is not what BDSM means, and if it does to someone you know, you have a duty to do something about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant

What you are saying is of course correct. However, it does not negate my points. It is only the dark flipside of what I am saying.

Whether or not people make the terrible descision to grant power to a predator does not change that they are granting that power.

If you have a submissive who, because of her own inner demons, always chooses the truly abusive slime bag who will always put her into a private hell, she is still choosing to obey him. She is still granting him control. The fact that she makes a terrible choice in who to give it to does not change the fact that she is still granting him that control. In principle, she could walk. In principle, she could call the cops.

In principle, every atom in her body could spontaneously re-arrange themselves at the quantum level into fucking butterflies with little pictures of Hello Kitty on them.

The word "choice" gets thrown around a lot in situations like this, especially with words like "in principle" tacked on. And you know what? It doesn't help. A "choice" that is so constrained by someone's psychology and environment is practically no choice at all, and we send the wrong message when we call it a "choice". When we say "it's her choice", what we're really saying - at least in part - is that it's her fault. Even if we don't want to.

Rather than worrying about the hypothetical principles of "choice", how about we deal with the pragmatic reality of power - specifically, the power that charismatic abusers have to find and manipulate victims, the power that psychologically locked-in victims have to actively sabotage attempts to help them, and the power that we, as rational and caring beings, have to find alternative resolutions to these situations.

Sometimes all the pop-psych "you have a choice" pep-talks in the world won't solve the problem.

I absolutely hear what you are saying here. It is a somewhat different matter. I do not debate that there are tremendous difficulties and psychological barriers to overcome in the sorts of horrible situations you are describing. If she has surrendered that far, for whatever reason, and locked herself into seeing no other options for whatever reason, then yes, she is truly lost. That does not mean that she has to be. That does not negate that she is still a person and has responsibility to herself. I would never try to take away from her. Rather, she must be the one to give it all back to herself. You are right that we can not do that for her. That fact only makes my point.



And the fact that she cannot see them also does not change. And one shouldn't simply cluck their tongue and say "she's made her choice"; any more than one can tell her "you can leave if you really want to!" and expect it to have any effect other than making her feel worse about herself. Sometimes people are damaged, and need to be repaired - and sometimes the nature of the damage is such that they need to be worked with against their will and better judgement. "Personal responsibility" is an over-used buzzword these days. We're all part of a network of interconnected parts, and all we have is each other. That's it. We're the only things keeping all this running. Sometimes we've got to step in and use our power to forge the outcomes we want to see in the world, and other peoples' "choices" be damned.

Without accepting personal responsibility, we are nothing. We are defined by our choices. It is hardly an over used buzzword. Which is more respectful? Is it saying that someone really could make a change - particularly when that is true. When there is no law of physics reason why she could not leave him (I am not talking Ukrainian brothels at the moment) or to say, "there was nothing you could do, there is nothing you can do, it is your lot in life because you are weak?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant

"Have you ever had a little baby wrap their tiny fingers around your finger?

quote:

Real power is given, never taken."

quote:

The art of being a Dominant rests in making the compelling case to the submissive that surrendering to you is what they actually want to do.

quote:

For certain, surrender can be coerced. Doms who go that route may possibly succeed in the short run with inexperienced submissives, but they will fail in the long run and be despised for it.

quote:

Anyone who has paid an unfair parking or traffic ticket knows this feeling. Anyone who has had a prick of a boss dump on them unfairly knows this feeling.

quote:

Real power means that you obey another because you feel that it is not just the best thing to do, but the *right* thing to do.

quote:

Real power in BDSM is when the dominant has sufficiently *earned* the trust and respect of the submissive so that they *want* to obey. That is the art of being a Dominant.