Some thoughts on power exchange

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QuixoticErrant -> Some thoughts on power exchange (5/4/2009 9:37:06 PM)
Some more thoughts on kink and kink philosophy... Power is something that is granted. It is not something that is seized. I once was in a karate class and the sensei said one of the more profound things I have ever heard. He broke a stack of boards - it was an impressive display, but actually something very trivial for him to do. He did it with a quick, casual contempt that was also part of his lesson. He said: "I imagine that many of you think that is power. It takes skill, but anyone of you who can not do that already can certainly learn to. There is an element of self mastery to doing it, which is the only real reflection of power it has." "Have you ever had a little baby wrap their tiny fingers around your finger? Ever try to get your finger back? THAT is power." "Of course you are vastly stronger than the baby, yet, for the life of you, you can not imagine withdrawing your finger. Real power is given, never taken." This has the most obvious and direct parallel to BDSM. The art of being a Dominant rests in making the compelling case to the submissive that surrendering to you is what they actually want to do. For certain, surrender can be coerced. Doms who go that route may possibly succeed in the short run with inexperienced submissives, but they will fail in the long run and be despised for it. We have all been outgunned in life at one time or another and had to do things we really would rather not, for people we really do not like. Anyone who has paid an unfair parking or traffic ticket knows this feeling. Anyone who has had a prick of a boss dump on them unfairly knows this feeling. After paying the parking ticket, how do you feel about the meter maid, or the cop that swaggered up to you? How do you feel about the boss who dumped on your work because he can't get his act together and is blaming you? They certainly had you checkmated. You did comply. But you likely do not respect them. If you could get away with it, you might consider belting them. You did it because you felt that you had no choice. They have no real power over you in the sense that you despise them and that the rules they enforced on you, you do not feel apply - and in the case of the boss who dumped on you unjustly, or the unfair ticket, you know that if the rules were working properly, things would have been different. Let's compare that to real power. Real power means that you obey another because you feel that it is not just the best thing to do, but the right thing to do. Perhaps the cop had you dead to rights at that stop. You may grumble, but you know that you want to live in a lawful society and you comply for reasons other than fear. Perhaps the boss that reamed you out, in fact wants to see the best from you, and is giving you some tough love. Real power in BDSM is when the dominant has sufficiently earned the trust and respect of the submissive so that they want to obey. That is the art of being a Dominant.

monaslave -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/4/2009 10:39:31 PM)
Oh how beautifully said [;)] I just wish there were more that understood it

angelikaJ -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/4/2009 10:57:36 PM)
Thank you for sharing that.

LadyPact -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/4/2009 11:11:44 PM)
You know, I don't usually get into the discussions on the perception of power, but I have to admit, that one was pretty good.

LyraLaLaurie -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/4/2009 11:18:43 PM)
Bookmarked to reign in my brattiness when it surfaces.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 12:55:26 AM)
Thank you so much

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 12:57:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Thank you for sharing that. You are very welcome.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 12:59:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact You know, I don't usually get into the discussions on the perception of power, but I have to admit, that one was pretty good. Again thank you. I've been trying to collect all of my thoughts on kink in a coherent manner lately. I am very glad that other experienced kinksters (like you) like them, and even more glad if the inexperienced ones find them useful.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 1:00:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LyraLaLaurie Bookmarked to reign in my brattiness when it surfaces. Very glad to be of service.

Fitznicely -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 1:12:21 AM)
Bravo! Nail hit squarely on head, there. Excellent piece [:D]

NihilusZero -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 1:27:06 AM)
So, in principle, I like the monologue. The catch is that relationships are two-way streets and the degree and quality of power is intrinsically tied to the perception of the person who is surrendering it. When you say... quote: For certain, surrender can be coerced. Doms who go that route may possibly succeed in the short run with inexperienced submissives, but they will fail in the long run and be despised for it. ...the implication is that all subs will have either a sensible ethical structure or a state of mental awareness that would reward a more 'virtuous' Dom. The case, however, is that for every D-type that is coercive and underhanded there is a sub that enables it and/or begs for it. And, sometimes the damnable reality of it is that two people who meet at such a juncture, while not what would normally be considered the zenith of a healthy D/s relationship, can have just as fulfilling an interaction because what makes it fulfilling is their own perceptions. Reflecting upon it this way actually relegates the concept of power to that of a fortunate accident, since a personal character based on honor and integrity isn't actually necessary for it...just the odds of a matching compatibility is. Heck, even coercion is a fundamentally gray area because, in truth, the entire basis of power exchange thrives upon the delicate symbiosis of consent and coercion...upon convincing another that your subjective appraisal of what is "best" is better than theirs. You even indirectly and inadvertently show it to be so here: quote: The art of being a Dominant rests in making the compelling case to the submissive that surrendering to you is what they actually want to do. So...while I can empathize with the parameters for what ought to yield power, I fear that, in reality (and to the melancholic response of a lot of folks), it inevitably has more to do with luck that with anything else.

GoddessTeaze -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 1:46:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant Some more thoughts on kink and kink philosophy... Power is something that is granted. It is not something that is seized. *Real power in BDSM is when the dominant has sufficiently earned* the trust and respect of the submissive so that they want to obey. That is the art of being a Dominant.** Very well said. And very good explaned with those examples. People can learn from this thread. Thank You for sharing Your thoughts. Warm Greetingz GoddezzT`

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 1:59:44 AM)
Also realize that power isn't always given by the people that said power is being inflicted upon. And sometimes power isn't given, it merely is. quote: "Have you ever had a little baby wrap their tiny fingers around your finger? Ever try to get your finger back? THAT is power." "Of course you are vastly stronger than the baby, yet, for the life of you, you can not imagine withdrawing your finger. Real power is given, never taken." At the same time, someone who decides to break that baby's hand most certainly has power over the baby - power that that baby never "gave" them. There are naturally weaker and stronger parties to most transactions, and while one can certainly "give" power to the other, most often power isn't given or taken - it's acknowledged. We in the kink community live in this fantasy bubble where power is a consensual exchange, when in the real world it most assuredly isn't. Ask the Cherokee about the Trail of Tears. Ask the African Americans about the triangle trade. Ask any Ukranian girl raised in a brothel as a wholely non-consensual sex-slave about power dynamics, and you won't hear any fictions about "taking" or "giving". These people know that power isn't given any more than it's taken - power simple is.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 2:06:34 AM)
What you are saying is of course correct. However, it does not negate my points. It is only the dark flipside of what I am saying. Whether or not people make the terrible descision to grant power to a predator does not change that they are granting that power. If you have a submissive who, because of her own inner demons, always chooses the truly abusive slime bag who will always put her into a private hell, she is still choosing to obey him. She is still granting him control. The fact that she makes a terrible choice in who to give it to does not change the fact that she is still granting him that control. In principle, she could walk. In principle, she could call the cops. Battered women syndrome is a very real and a very tragic thing. I understand that there are many reasons why she may feel completely powerless. Even though I have no desire to belittle it in any way, or to take away from the pain or the difficulty these ladies feel, those reasons are not nescessarily good or even true reasons. The fact that she really does have other options that she can not see, for whatever reason, does not change.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 2:08:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessTeaze quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant Some more thoughts on kink and kink philosophy... Power is something that is granted. It is not something that is seized. *Real power in BDSM is when the dominant has sufficiently earned* the trust and respect of the submissive so that they want to obey. That is the art of being a Dominant.** Very well said. And very good explaned with those examples. People can learn from this thread. Thank You for sharing Your thoughts. Warm Greetingz GoddezzT` Thank you so very much. I truly want to be of use to others. I have been hearing from a lot of Newbies out there who have been having a rough go at getting into this.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 2:17:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant What you are saying is of course correct. However, it does not negate my points. It is only the dark flipside of what I am saying. Whether or not people make the terrible descision to grant power to a predator does not change that they are granting that power. If you have a submissive who, because of her own inner demons, always chooses the truly abusive slime bag who will always put her into a private hell, she is still choosing to obey him. She is still granting him control. The fact that she makes a terrible choice in who to give it to does not change the fact that she is still granting him that control. In principle, she could walk. In principle, she could call the cops. In principle, every atom in her body could spontaneously re-arrange themselves at the quantum level into fucking butterflies with little pictures of Hello Kitty on them. The word "choice" gets thrown around a lot in situations like this, especially with words like "in principle" tacked on. And you know what? It doesn't help. A "choice" that is so constrained by someone's psychology and environment is practically no choice at all, and we send the wrong message when we call it a "choice". When we say "it's her choice", what we're really saying - at least in part - is that it's her fault. Even if we don't want to. Rather than worrying about the hypothetical principles of "choice", how about we deal with the pragmatic reality of power - specifically, the power that charismatic abusers have to find and manipulate victims, the power that psychologically locked-in victims have to actively sabotage attempts to help them, and the power that we, as rational and caring beings, have to find alternative resolutions to these situations. Sometimes all the pop-psych "you have a choice" pep-talks in the world won't solve the problem. quote: Battered women syndrome is a very real and a very tragic thing. I understand that there are many reasons why she may feel completely powerless. Even though I have no desire to belittle it in any way, or to take away from the pain or the difficulty these ladies feel, those reasons are not nescessarily good or even true reasons. The fact that she really does have other options that she can not see, for whatever reason, does not change. And the fact that she cannot see them also does not change. And one shouldn't simply cluck their tongue and say "she's made her choice"; any more than one can tell her "you can leave if you really want to!" and expect it to have any effect other than making her feel worse about herself. Sometimes people are damaged, and need to be repaired - and sometimes the nature of the damage is such that they need to be worked with against their will and better judgement. "Personal responsibility" is an over-used buzzword these days. We're all part of a network of interconnected parts, and all we have is each other. That's it. We're the only things keeping all this running. Sometimes we've got to step in and use our power to forge the outcomes we want to see in the world, and other peoples' "choices" be damned.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 2:24:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Also realize that power isn't always given by the people that said power is being inflicted upon. And sometimes power isn't given, it merely is. quote: "Have you ever had a little baby wrap their tiny fingers around your finger? Ever try to get your finger back? THAT is power." "Of course you are vastly stronger than the baby, yet, for the life of you, you can not imagine withdrawing your finger. Real power is given, never taken." At the same time, someone who decides to break that baby's hand most certainly has power over the baby - power that that baby never "gave" them. There are naturally weaker and stronger parties to most transactions, and while one can certainly "give" power to the other, most often power isn't given or taken - it's acknowledged. We in the kink community live in this fantasy bubble where power is a consensual exchange, when in the real world it most assuredly isn't. Ask the Cherokee about the Trail of Tears. Ask the African Americans about the triangle trade. Ask any Ukranian girl raised in a brothel as a wholely non-consensual sex-slave about power dynamics, and you won't hear any fictions about "taking" or "giving". These people know that power isn't given any more than it's taken - power simple is. And unless she were totally broken, she would get the hell out of there if she could. She would hate those who abused her. She would know that she deserved better. She would still have her own soul. You can coerce someone for certain in many different ways. That does not mean that you have power over them as they are. Sensei's and my point, is that real power is a spiritual matter. Yes, evil people can break and torture the bodies of others. They can kill others, but it is up to the victim to really surrender. The first step to being beaten is believeing you are beaten. There is a great phrase, "Such a man can only be killed. He can not be beaten." As to the bubble that you claim we live in.... in BDSM, that "bubble" as you call it, includes consent. It inculdes notions of duty and responsibility to the mental and physical health of one's lover. When it does not, it is no longer called BDSM. It is called aggrivated rape. Society has properly harsh laws about such things. If one believes that power "just is" without boundaries, and one ignores the social contract, then one does so at their own peril. The fact that many places in the FSU have broken down the social contract is a sad and tragic thing. I do not deny the suffering of girls forced into prostitution. I deny that they like it or think it is a good thing. I deny that they would not want to kill the bastards doing it to them if they could. I also do not deny that over time, people can surrender their own minds utterly, it becomes easier to check out then to face the pain. That is called being broken by torture. I agree that is a real thing. However, they still made that final choice - however much we may sympathize with why they did it. I would hope that is not what BDSM means, and if it does to someone you know, you have a duty to do something about it.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 2:33:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant There is a great phrase, "Such a man can only be killed. He can not be beaten." And the proper response to that is, "I don't have to beat him, I just have to kill him. If I need to beat someone, I'll just keep killing people who can't be beaten until the people who can be beaten get the hint, and let me beat them." quote: As to the bubble that you claim we live in.... in BDSM, that "bubble" as you call it, includes consent. It inculdes notions of duty and responsibility to the mental and physical health of one's lover. When it does not, it is no longer called BDSM. It is called aggrivated rape. Society has properly harsh laws about such things. If one believes that power "just is" without boundaries, and one ignores the social contract, then one does so at their own peril. Gods, I wish this were true. The fact is that plenty of people have power that put them above the law. And yes, they do commit what should be called "aggravated rape", all the time, and get away with it. I had acquaintances who used to brag about it, publicly. They'd brag about how their cushy overseas jobs let them buy and sell underage girls from the Vory. And you know what? None of these people have been touched, because they have real power. quote: The fact that many places in the FSU have broken down the social contract is a sad and tragic thing. I do not deny the suffering of girls forced into prostitution. I deny that they like it or think it is a good thing. I deny that they would not want to kill the bastards doing it to them if they could. I also do not deny that over time, people can surrender their own minds utterly, it becomes easier to check out then to face the pain. That is called being broken by torture. I agree that is a real thing. However, they still made that final choice - however much we may sympathize with why they did it. Again, I have a huge problem with calling it a "choice". Choices are neurochemical in nature. With sufficient chemicals, sleep deprivation, and social cues, I can make almost anyone "choose" anything. And anyone who doesn't "choose" what I want, I can simply remove from the picture altogether. And you can go on all you want about the "nobility" of those precious few who were strong enough to last until the end, but guess what? They ended. Everyone breaks under torture, eventually. quote: I would hope that is not what BDSM means, and if it does to someone you know, you have a duty to do something about it. This, at least, we emphatically agree on. But I think that everything you said before this can be used far too easily to excuse shirking this duty.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 2:38:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant What you are saying is of course correct. However, it does not negate my points. It is only the dark flipside of what I am saying. Whether or not people make the terrible descision to grant power to a predator does not change that they are granting that power. If you have a submissive who, because of her own inner demons, always chooses the truly abusive slime bag who will always put her into a private hell, she is still choosing to obey him. She is still granting him control. The fact that she makes a terrible choice in who to give it to does not change the fact that she is still granting him that control. In principle, she could walk. In principle, she could call the cops. In principle, every atom in her body could spontaneously re-arrange themselves at the quantum level into fucking butterflies with little pictures of Hello Kitty on them. The word "choice" gets thrown around a lot in situations like this, especially with words like "in principle" tacked on. And you know what? It doesn't help. A "choice" that is so constrained by someone's psychology and environment is practically no choice at all, and we send the wrong message when we call it a "choice". When we say "it's her choice", what we're really saying - at least in part - is that it's her fault. Even if we don't want to. Rather than worrying about the hypothetical principles of "choice", how about we deal with the pragmatic reality of power - specifically, the power that charismatic abusers have to find and manipulate victims, the power that psychologically locked-in victims have to actively sabotage attempts to help them, and the power that we, as rational and caring beings, have to find alternative resolutions to these situations. Sometimes all the pop-psych "you have a choice" pep-talks in the world won't solve the problem. I absolutely hear what you are saying here. It is a somewhat different matter. I do not debate that there are tremendous difficulties and psychological barriers to overcome in the sorts of horrible situations you are describing. If she has surrendered that far, for whatever reason, and locked herself into seeing no other options for whatever reason, then yes, she is truly lost. That does not mean that she has to be. That does not negate that she is still a person and has responsibility to herself. I would never try to take away from her. Rather, she must be the one to give it all back to herself. You are right that we can not do that for her. That fact only makes my point. And the fact that she cannot see them also does not change. And one shouldn't simply cluck their tongue and say "she's made her choice"; any more than one can tell her "you can leave if you really want to!" and expect it to have any effect other than making her feel worse about herself. Sometimes people are damaged, and need to be repaired - and sometimes the nature of the damage is such that they need to be worked with against their will and better judgement. "Personal responsibility" is an over-used buzzword these days. We're all part of a network of interconnected parts, and all we have is each other. That's it. We're the only things keeping all this running. Sometimes we've got to step in and use our power to forge the outcomes we want to see in the world, and other peoples' "choices" be damned. Without accepting personal responsibility, we are nothing. We are defined by our choices. It is hardly an over used buzzword. Which is more respectful? Is it saying that someone really could make a change - particularly when that is true. When there is no law of physics reason why she could not leave him (I am not talking Ukrainian brothels at the moment) or to say, "there was nothing you could do, there is nothing you can do, it is your lot in life because you are weak?"

BitaTruble -> RE: Some thoughts on power exchange (5/5/2009 2:40:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant "Have you ever had a little baby wrap their tiny fingers around your finger? Only when I've held my own hand out first. I think you are confusing power with instinct in this case. quote: Real power is given, never taken." Absolutes are rarely accurate. Power is often taken, taken away, given, denied, acknowledged. There are a plethora of ways in which to achieve power or have it taken from you. quote: The art of being a Dominant rests in making the compelling case to the submissive that surrendering to you is what they actually want to do. I didn't need to be convinced. His power compels me, whether I like it or not. MMV, of course. I think this is all very sweet, but the One True Way doesn't work for me. There are too many variables and for some of us it's all about having our power taken from us whether we like it or not just because the dominant is capable .. even if they don't know what to do with that power, even if they suck as humans, even if they are clueless. I got lucky and luck is highly underrated! quote: For certain, surrender can be coerced. Doms who go that route may possibly succeed in the short run with inexperienced submissives, but they will fail in the long run and be despised for it. Sir coerces me, manipulates me, uses me to further his own ends and did so from the get go and rather than despise him for it, I appreciate it and his ability to do so. Having 15 years under my belt with r/t D/s and being with him for almost 14 years now, the absolute is proven inaccurate. Dominants that go the route of Sir may fail often, but not always and some of them are going to be quite successful and happy with their chosen way. quote: Anyone who has paid an unfair parking or traffic ticket knows this feeling. Anyone who has had a prick of a boss dump on them unfairly knows this feeling. Well, I've never gotten a parking ticket or an unfair traffic ticket, so I can't relate to that, however, I did have a boss once who was a bit of a prick. I quit .. two months later he got fired. Go figure. quote: Real power means that you obey another because you feel that it is not just the best thing to do, but the right thing to do. I obey whether or not I think it's the 'right' thing to do. If everything is going to be based on what I think is the 'right' thing to do, I don't need a dominant making the decisions even though, on occasion, they make the wrong decisions. Where's the real power if each party is only going to do what they think is 'right'. Why have a D/s dynamic at all. Go 'nilla and call it done. What's the difference? quote: Real power in BDSM is when the dominant has sufficiently earned the trust and respect of the submissive so that they want to obey. That is the art of being a Dominant. My obedience was almost (not quite) instant when I met him. I wanted to drop to my knees from that first moment we met because his power compelled that reaction from me. The trust came later.

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