RE: The Dynamics of Others (Full Version)

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StrangerThan -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 6:19:41 AM)

I think of life sort of like reading a novel. What captures and entwines imaginations is the journey, not the destination. The destination is where we languish and where the story ends. I'm not ready for my story to end.

That means I don't have a problem learning from others nor studying how they do things and within it, possibly finding something to benefit mine. At the same time, I realize I have choices to make that directly affect mine and that the responsibility for mine, rests with me, not with someone else.  I don't see BDSM as some golden domed temple. I see it as a part of the journey, but not the entire journey life encompasses. So how I interact with them is pretty much how I interact with anyone. I take what has value, give what I think has value, leave the assholes and the things that don't have value like litter scattered along the highway.

Because it basically is litter on my highway. I fully accept the fact that those things may be a golden domed temple for someone else, but that's their road, not mine. And I think that's a key for most aspects of life. Figure out what goes well with your palate, indulge thereof in a responsible manner, try new things but spit out those that don't jibe well with your sense of taste.




eyesopened -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 6:19:58 AM)

My interactions with others differs from person to person.  There are those who do things differently than we do who are comfortable in their own skins and obviously happy, accepting people.  I like to learn from them.  I have learned from them.  I have said, "Wow, that sounds cool, I'll have to try that."

Then there are people who are confrontational about their dynamic, who are hell bent on telling me I'm doing it wrong, they have the right way and anyone else is a moron.  I have nothing to learn from those people although I happily accept that they are right...for them but not for me or for my relationship.




DesFIP -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 6:29:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

  Sometimes, it does just boil down to that I'm happier living this way.  I may not be on the type of terms with you (general you, not you specifically, HK) that I can express to you where that comes from or what it means to Me.  It may be personal to Me, and on that premise, no, you wouldn't understand because I'm not willing to reveal it.  The possibility does exist that a ritual was put in place for an reason too intimate to share.



Like Lady Pact, sometimes it does come down to "this is what works for me". Plus I don't feel that I owe anyone else any kind of explanation. If someone I didn't know, like HK, came up demanding explanations he wouldn't get them. I find his way of asking to be intrusive.

I don't have to have a logical explanation especially if someone else has deemed themselves the arbiter of what is a good explanation and what isn't. And that's the sense I get in a lot of HK's posts, that he is sitting back and judging. That's how he comes across to me, apologies if he doesn't mean to do that. To me, you can't learn with an open mind and judge at the same time.

I don't owe anyone any explanation. I won't give it if they have any attitude I distrust. And most likely it won't involve logic, but emotions. If you can't understand that I operate not from a logic based system but from one in which what makes us happiest, then it isn't worth talking to you.




kidwithknife -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 6:36:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper
I don't believe in the theory that people should not challenge the way of others. If I see issues which concern me, I decide if I care about the person enough to test their methodology. Are they approachable enough to be questioned? Refusing to test the system stems from a fear of breaking it, and I have little place in my life for those so afraid of breaking things they refuse to entertain the idea of change. In this sense, yes, my inclination is to learn more about them. If I happen to disagree on some point or kink, I'll voice my opinion. Another reasonable person would either say "Understood. I disagree, and this is why..." and maybe I'll learn something. Or they might say "Never thought about it that way..." and they might learn something. I consider that beautiful.
I broadly agree.  I welcome my ideas being challenged.  It gives me the opportunity to discard those I find I can't defend.  And those that are left have been tempered in the fire of debate, so they're stronger for it.

However, personally, I find the people that challenge me the most are those who exist at philosophical right angles to myself.  Those who are diametrically opposed to me really just give me something to define myself against.  Although tht can be useful to.




marysdream -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 6:59:30 AM)

i agree with your viewpoint on the dynamics between others on websites or in real time. i will say though based on my experience, the sub is constantly put at odds in trying to figure out others sincerity level especially on line. it comes to a point where i have reached that being realistic about 99 percent of the D's on here , actively seek to undermine and to destroy someone they know is seeking to be real and authentic! i have to take back my power as a person and a sub.
i know others will not understand, or even condemn me for these thoughts but they are not me, i draw from my own journey..and change to stay healthy!
ty
ree




pinkwind -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 7:42:50 AM)

i like talking to folk, reading their words, and exploring the myriad ways there are to achieve the happiness i strive for, and try to do so with as open a mind as possible.

Yes, there are times when a dynamic that i feel shouldn't work does, and with great success for more than one relationship, and rather than turn my back on it i would rather find the common factors, evaluate the differences along with any similarities, and odd times take on board an element that might work well.

Most of the time it is more an anthropological exercise, people watching, understanding how dynamics take on a life of their own, can be adopted by osmosis where people gather together on a regular basis, how certain dynamics become bigger than the sum of the people involved.

The subject fascinates me to a degree, horrifies too, but infrequently thankfully, gives food for thought at every turn. The problem is that some folk have dynamics that work but are too precious to let people close enough to find out how, and others all to eager to foist the unworkable on all and sundry!

All one can really say is Vive le Difference!







SimplyMichael -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 7:56:05 AM)

Oh HELL YEAH!

Take Merc and I, TOTALLY different politics, he is a knucle dragging conservative and I am a left wing commie liberal.  Our relationship styles are quite different.  However WE get along on a personal level as we share common values. 

In fact, most of my friends are quite different than I am in one way or another.  Life is rich, you can either eat vanilla every day or you can suck the marrow out of life's bones.  Live large people.




InTonguesslave -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 8:02:52 AM)

im learning about different dynamics within my own poly dynamic between Sir and my poly sis - my thoughts on something recently have been challenged and i realised that i was being reactionary rather than being the broad minded person i always believed i was.

understanding that there is way more out there than i, in my safe little world ever considered, is turning out to be an incredible learning curve and not negatively, its broadening my perspective and pushing my own boundaries simply by being part of their dynamic too.

its a definite positive to be challenged and exposed to different ideas and activities, i think its all part of growing and learning in an ever expanding smorgesboard of options that you can take or leave, observe and accept purely because you wish the people involved to have as much fun as they possibly can.

swept along by the enthusiasm of others makes you realise that youre own self imposed boundaries and limits can be challenged - you may not ever 'go there', but appreciating other tastes and proclivities broadens youre mind anyway.  which is a good thing.




agirl -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 8:06:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkwind



The problem is that some folk have dynamics that work but are too precious to let people close enough to find out how, and others all to eager to foist the unworkable on all and sundry!

All one can really say is Vive le Difference!



I'm only too aware that *our* dynamic isn't transferable. It works because of of the two people and personalities that WE are. It doesn't matter if I explain *how* it works because it will only work for *us*.

agirl




DavanKael -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 8:40:18 AM)

I can respect the way someone chooses to live even if it's not for me.  I have never been hung up on surrounding myself with people just like me, but rather prefer to be surrounded by people I respect.  There are lots ofpieces ofpotential validity all over the place; it's just a matter of keeping open eyes and an open mind. 
  Davan




LovingMistress45 -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 8:41:05 AM)

Hi LP, interesting topic.  I am very much of the philosophy - live and let live, I'm ok, you're ok.  I also am an avid learner and love to learn about things even if it is nothing I am ever going to do.  If I feel the energy between 2 people in a scene I am going to stop and watch even if it is not something I would personally ever do, because the energy pulls me. 

If the people involved are willing to discuss what it is that they do, I will engage in the conversation because I am curious by nature.  I have had interesting conversations with people into branding, not my thing, but I found the meaning it had for them interesting.  I find watching needle play intriguing but not anything I would ever do. 

For the most part I am the type that can learning about how others do/view things without passing judgement - I find people interesting.  I am also open to the fact that my way is not the only way - my way is how it works for me.  And as I grow sometimes my feelings/beliefs about things change. 




InTonguesslut -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 9:02:03 AM)

quote:

How do you handle your interactions with someone who, obviously, does things differently than you do? 

The same way as i handle my interactions with someone who cooks beef differently to me or gives head differently or etc etc etc. Everyone does things differently and i don't think the way we handle interactions with those who do would vary so much in BDSM than any other way.
 
quote:

 Would it be your inclination to learn more about them, even though their style is different than yours? 

It would just as if someone cooks beef differently i would want to learn how they do it and if it is a better way, more efficent way than i do it.
 
 






Morniel -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 9:04:45 AM)

Um, how does someone else's marriage (or relationship) dynamic have anything to do with interacting with them on a casual or daily or friendship basis?  That's kind of like saying your friends' religious beliefs affect how you interact with them, or like saying their eye colour affects your interaction.

I guess I just don't understand why the intimate details of someone else's household have anything to do with anyone else, and I most assuredly don't understand why any other couple's sex life is my business, or indeed anyone's but that couple's. 




HeavansKeeper -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 10:22:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

  Sometimes, it does just boil down to that I'm happier living this way.  I may not be on the type of terms with you (general you, not you specifically, HK) that I can express to you where that comes from or what it means to Me.  It may be personal to Me, and on that premise, no, you wouldn't understand because I'm not willing to reveal it.  The possibility does exist that a ritual was put in place for an reason too intimate to share.



Like Lady Pact, sometimes it does come down to "this is what works for me". Plus I don't feel that I owe anyone else any kind of explanation. If someone I didn't know, like HK, came up demanding explanations he wouldn't get them. I find his way of asking to be intrusive.

I don't have to have a logical explanation especially if someone else has deemed themselves the arbiter of what is a good explanation and what isn't. And that's the sense I get in a lot of HK's posts, that he is sitting back and judging. That's how he comes across to me, apologies if he doesn't mean to do that. To me, you can't learn with an open mind and judge at the same time.

I don't owe anyone any explanation. I won't give it if they have any attitude I distrust. And most likely it won't involve logic, but emotions. If you can't understand that I operate not from a logic based system but from one in which what makes us happiest, then it isn't worth talking to you.


Perhaps there is a stigma to being unapproachable. It's not a binary issue. My accountant at H&R Block is very approachable to questions about money. Not so approachable to questions about sexual preference (I assume, I haven't tried). This is because, as Lady Pact puts it, we're not on that type of terms. There's no problem with that. Not everyone is privy to everything. Every one has the right to judge for themselves what they are comfortable giving and what they're not (and it can change from moment to moment - it's very fluid).

Reasons like "I'm just happier this way" are, believe it or not, completely logical. While happiness may be hard to quantify (and impossible to properly objectify) it's (usually) easy to tell which of two options makes you happier. Speaking directly to Lady Pact, I don't think you've made any statements of closed minded ignorance. In saying...
quote:


Having said that, I can not help but to pause and say that there does happen to be My Way, which works for Me. Just like you have your way and it works for you. I'd be willing to wager that, for those who have been doing this for a while, you, like Me, have found your way over time, through trial and error, through where you have found your niche or your happiness. As someone else said in an unrelated thread, if you didn't think your way was the best way for you, you'd be doing it someone else's way.

You show a willingness to change and accept new ideas when they prove to be better. (No longer speaking directly to Lady Pact, but instead to everyone reading.) A better idea doesn't have to be the right idea. It doesn't have to be a universally better idea. It doesn't have to be better than the "old way" in every capacity. Understanding the merit of a new way and acting on it is growth (as is the opposite, understanding a lack of merit in an old way, and phasing it out).

DesFIP, we're all arbiters of what is a good explanation and what isn't. "Mom, I need money for a new notebook" is usually an acceptable justification for why. "Mom, I need money for kindling." is not. In this regard, the mother is the high arbiter. My posts should carry the feeling of judgment, because that's what I do (unless I'm offering a story or pointing out a pitfall, or asking rhetoric). I judge. But we all judge. You say "one cannot learn with an open mind and judge at the same time" but I say the opposite. To learn, we must judge everything. Not just as good or bad/ right or wrong... but every category in which a decision can be made. Color, weight, intrinsic value, relation to me, value to me, interest to me, material cost, rarity, effectiveness at given task, etc. And most importantly of all, we must judge which of the previous judgments don't matter right now. If a reader cannot remove the negative stigma to judging, call it "deciding without every last fact." Humans rarely have the pleasure of deducting. We often have to use inductive reasoning, which is a fallacy, and can be flawed. A willingness to change and admit when we're wrong usually makes up for these flaws. How many times does Frank have to rob from you before you consider him a threat to your stuff? Unless your answer is "infinite times", you judge him, and rightfully so.

Going back a bit, DesFIP, you don't owe me any explanations, and if I wanted to learn more about your dynamic I wouldn't come across as though you had. That'd be, as they say, a dick thing to do. Also, if I ask a question, I am fully aware a response can be "I'd rather not talk about that right now." Nothing wrong with that.

I've said before I struggle with emotions, but that doesn't make me a computer. I've cried, I've raged... I understand emotions as a response, but struggle to as an instigating/driving/starting force. I see "it makes me happier than the alternative" as a perfect reason to do something. (Example, thinking "maybe this new way will make me happier, I'll try that" is a non-emotional driver. "Wow, that new way made me happier" is an emotional response. Continuing to do the new way is just behaviorism). That's how my mind works.

tl;dr portion:
1) We all judge, almost all the time, and it's natural and normal.
2) People are entitled to release information as they see fit.
3) People can be approachable in different manners, in different quantities, concerning different factors, at different times. And it can always change.
4) What makes you happy is a reasonable measure of your willingness to do it.




junecleaver -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 11:15:03 AM)

Generally, I'm extremely curious about everyone...kinky or not.  But the curiosity tends to be seen as 'creepy.' lol  So I usually back off unless I see someone is willing to share and I think it's natural for people to enjoy talking about themselves...so I do hear a lot about how a relationship functions, etc.  I respect that your private life is private, but if you wanted to dish details, I'd probably listen intently.  




Jeptha -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 11:38:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

...How do you handle your interactions with someone who, obviously, does things differently than you do? Would it be your inclination to learn more about them, even though their style is different than yours?
Everybody can teach something, to follow or to flee.

I'm always fine-tuning my ideas, life, philosophy, whatever. If people demonstrate with their own joy that something is working, then it's probably worth a look.

My spirituality, for example, is a big basket of stuff gleaned from lots of varied traditions. I haven't bothered to assemble it all into one coheasive thing yet because I haven't felt that need.

It's more a question of what's appropriate now. I'll rummage through to see what works. There's a foundation under it all, but that consists of just the most bare bones kind of ethical underpinnings.

Everything else is pretty well open to negotiation, ~ or at least open to discussion.

And, since I wish people to grant me the freedom to pick-n'-choose, I hope that I'll be open-minded about other people's systems.




LadyPact -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 12:52:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morniel

Um, how does someone else's marriage (or relationship) dynamic have anything to do with interacting with them on a casual or daily or friendship basis?  That's kind of like saying your friends' religious beliefs affect how you interact with them, or like saying their eye colour affects your interaction.

I guess I just don't understand why the intimate details of someone else's household have anything to do with anyone else, and I most assuredly don't understand why any other couple's sex life is my business, or indeed anyone's but that couple's. 

This is a fair question, because there are some folks who don't understand (see, right there, I used one of those phrases mentioned earlier) the way certain things work other people.  While I did use the reason of possible intimacy as one of the potential reasons some people structure their lives in some way in a prior response, I was to also say not everything about a dynamic is intimate.


Let's say, for example, that I happen to be friends with a M/s couple who participates in the leather lifestyle and they live a medium to high protocol 24/7, and I'm aware of that. 
On an afternoon, I decide that I'd like to go shopping and I'd like to take the s with Me.  I proceed to drive over to her home, hug her when she opens the door, and invite her to come with Me.

That sounds innocent and some people would even say that it's a nice gesture.  Others would say that I'm being disrespectful of their dynamic.  Not only did I skip over talking to the M about another Dominant (Me) having interactions with his slave, I also touched his property without his consent, and asked her to participate in an activity which he had no opportunity to approve for her.

The example is kind of extreme, but if I really am their friend, I'll respect the way they have chosen to live.  Whether I agree with it or not, it's working for them.

Kind of like the way I was raised.  When I'm in someone else's home, I follow their rules.  I wouldn't wear My street shoes inside My Japanese friend's home and I wouldn't give My atheist friend a collection of hymns on CD as a Christmas present.




HeavansKeeper -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 3:04:32 PM)

Lady Pact, you act as though being incapable of understanding is the same as not having it be explained. Any mind which can comprehend notions like owning a person CAN grasp the controlling issue. The faux pas mentioned above would be akin to invtng vegetarians to a nice steak house. The forgetfulness can be offensive, hence why they (the hypothetical M/s couple) ought to be understanding. Expecting others to observe one's belief with the same fervor is foolish. This begs the question...

Are you (the general you) willing/open/approachable/patient/understanding toward people wanting to learn about your dynamic?






antipode -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 4:54:04 PM)

quote:

does things differently than you do? Would it be your inclination to learn more about them


Not for that reason. I learn about people I am attracted to, for whatever reason. I don't learn about people just because they do things differently - first, that's a given, second, I am not really interested in how someone arrives at something. I only concern myself with the outcome, their success, or lack thereof.




Prinsexx -> RE: The Dynamics of Others (3/23/2009 5:20:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

How do you handle your interactions with someone who, obviously, does things differently than you do?  Would it be your inclination to learn more about them, even though their style is different than yours? 


I'm an anarchist slave. Go figure. If I had ever imagined that this intense, weird, wonderful, expressive, painful pleasure seeking perverse world would have anything to do with conformity than I would have probably gone straight...... (humour me).
Look: I only have my experience to go on really. There simply isn't enough research evidence to get all empirical about WIITWD... and even if there were the research evidence the publishers would all get picky about publishing the damn stuff anyway.

Let's face it, I don;t care about what anyone else does. And no-one cares about what I do so let's just shut the whole forum down and say enough is enough.

Except we don't. It carries on... another dumb post after yet another dumb posts getting dumber and dumber. Let's all get very clear about the one true way and the dress code and the etiquette and the protocols... irony by the way.

So what I am really saying is that sometimes, more often than not, conformity is all we really got to hold onto. A sense of safety in numbers. A sense of belonging. Which I suppose is why difference, and somebody else doing it differently, makes some of us feel so insecure.

It doesn't bother me that anyone does anything differently than me. But it does bother me when:
1. I don't understand what they are doing.
2. I do understand what they are doing but I don't understand why.
3. There is a difference between what they say they do and what they actually do.
4. They are inconsistent about what they do.
5. They speak with forked tongue.
6. They make assumptions about what I do based upon what they assume I do....
7. They ask for advice about what to do and then make me wrong for suggesting stuff.
8. Want to impose WIITD on me, the community and the world at large.

None of the above points are specifically tied to kink. It just what happens. I am not exempt from those eight points above either... so...the moral of the story has got to be that there isn't a single moral to the story. And that to live without conformity is often uncomfortable.









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