quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

BRAVO! From My perspective that is well stated, I cannot and will not engage in a relationship with someone who says,  I MUST be punished regularly or I need you to show your love by punishment----to Me that's passive Dominance and I will not have it.
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: MG4Apuppygirl

Don't confuse punishment, with discipline. Your definition of punishment may be someone elses mandatory form of discipline.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
...Everytime I do what he tells me, or follow through on a suggestion, I am, in effect, saying, "yes sir, I am yours." And, if I fail to obey (in a willful way, not because extenuating circumstances, momentary lapses of ability etc got in the way) I am withdrawing consent. ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I was just reading through missturbation's anger/abuse thread and had a couple of chains of thought that helped me to clarify to myself why I recoil at the thought of being involved in a relationship either based on punishment, or where the potential for punishment is an ever present reality.  I had one of those "ah hah" moments so thought I'd share.  Cuz, like, ya know, everybody is just dying to know about my ah hah moments. (note self-deprecating sarcasm lol)

Anyway, I don't like punishment, and I won't get involved in a relationship where punishment plays a heavy part in defining the dynamic.  Sir has never really punished me except maybe early on, when we were still working through the basics of our relationship.  In spite of this, I still do what he tells me to, even when I'm in a bad mood and cranky and don't really want to get his goddamn lunch.  Those times are rare, and its even rarer that he gives me an order that seriously tests my limits.  When pushing, he'll make suggestions or allude to desires but won't out and out order me to do something.  This makes my obedience possible.  He gives me orders I can obey and doesn't give me orders that are beyond me.

Why is this important?  Well, because, as it dawned on me just a few minutes ago, my continuing obedience constitutes my consent to the on-going relationship.  Everytime I do what he tells me, or follow through on a suggestion, I am, in effect, saying, "yes sir, I am yours."  And, if I fail to obey (in a willful way, not because extenuating circumstances, momentary lapses of ability etc got in the way) I am withdrawing consent.   And, if he were to start giving me orders I had to refuse, he would, in effect, be saying he doesn't want my simple obedience anymore but is more interested in something else, something I might not be able to give (again, ruling out extenuating circumstances, mistakes and that sort of thing).

So, where does punishment come in.  Thats the rub: it doesn't.  It can't and it couldn't. At least not in my little world, though it might have a place in the worlds of others.  Here's my thinking on why--if, as I've explained, my obedience constitutes my consent, punishing me for disobedience would be punishing me for withdrawing consent.  In that moment, the moment of punishment, the relationship would become abusive because my ability to consent would be rendered invalid. 

It seems really clear to me as I type this out in an early morning caffein buzz (love those first cups of coffee!).  I wonder if it makes sense to others.

quote:

well, first i understand exactly what you mean and why it would signify that for you. but looking at it another way, that would be placing the ultimate authority in YOUR hands. if you have the power to terminate the relationship, simply by being disobedient no less...then who is really running the ship?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MG4Apuppygirl

Don't confuse punishment, with discipline. Your definition of punishment may be someone elses mandatory form of discipline. Anyway, if you have consented to obedience, then you would have consented to not being disobedient. How can you possibly withdraw consent in an instance and deem the dynamic "abusive", just because you don't like to be punished, or you failed to concentrate on the "duty" you consented to in the first place. What kind of theory is that?      

quote:

ORIGINAL: MG4Apuppygirl

Don't confuse punishment, with discipline. Your definition of punishment may be someone elses mandatory form of discipline. Anyway, if you have consented to obedience, then you would have consented to not being disobedient. How can you possibly withdraw consent in an instance and deem the dynamic "abusive", just because you don't like to be punished, or you failed to concentrate on the "duty" you consented to in the first place. What kind of theory is that?      

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I was just reading through missturbation's anger/abuse thread and had a couple of chains of thought that helped me to clarify to myself why I recoil at the thought of being involved in a relationship either based on punishment, or where the potential for punishment is an ever present reality.  I had one of those "ah hah" moments so thought I'd share.  Cuz, like, ya know, everybody is just dying to know about my ah hah moments. (note self-deprecating sarcasm lol)

Anyway, I don't like punishment, and I won't get involved in a relationship where punishment plays a heavy part in defining the dynamic.  Sir has never really punished me except maybe early on, when we were still working through the basics of our relationship.  In spite of this, I still do what he tells me to, even when I'm in a bad mood and cranky and don't really want to get his goddamn lunch.  Those times are rare, and its even rarer that he gives me an order that seriously tests my limits.  When pushing, he'll make suggestions or allude to desires but won't out and out order me to do something.  This makes my obedience possible.  He gives me orders I can obey and doesn't give me orders that are beyond me.

Why is this important?  Well, because, as it dawned on me just a few minutes ago, my continuing obedience constitutes my consent to the on-going relationship.  Everytime I do what he tells me, or follow through on a suggestion, I am, in effect, saying, "yes sir, I am yours."  And, if I fail to obey (in a willful way, not because extenuating circumstances, momentary lapses of ability etc got in the way) I am withdrawing consent.   And, if he were to start giving me orders I had to refuse, he would, in effect, be saying he doesn't want my simple obedience anymore but is more interested in something else, something I might not be able to give (again, ruling out extenuating circumstances, mistakes and that sort of thing).

So, where does punishment come in.  Thats the rub: it doesn't.  It can't and it couldn't. At least not in my little world, though it might have a place in the worlds of others.  Here's my thinking on why--if, as I've explained, my obedience constitutes my consent, punishing me for disobedience would be punishing me for withdrawing consent.  In that moment, the moment of punishment, the relationship would become abusive because my ability to consent would be rendered invalid. 

It seems really clear to me as I type this out in an early morning caffein buzz (love those first cups of coffee!).  I wonder if it makes sense to others.