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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 12:31:49 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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quote:

it is by no means the only reason a sub or slave may be punished.


I'm curious about other reasons for punishment beyond disobedience.  Could you list some?

quote:

but looking at it another way, that would be placing the ultimate authority in  YOUR hands. if you have the power to terminate the relationship, simply by being disobedient no less...then who is really running the ship? 



We both are "running the ship" at least when it comes to defining our basic relationship dynamic.  Its a joint venture, one that we're engaged in together.  As I indicated in my original post, its not just that I obey, but also, and more importantly, that he gives me orders I can obey.  In this, he allows my obedience.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 12:35:59 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Count me in on the side of someone who believes in both discipline and punishment.  There is a difference between the two.  In my world, punishment is reserved for the most severe infractions.  Since physical punishment is something I use rarely, its occurrence is even rarer on the punishment roadmap.  Discipline is something I do believe in...to correct an unwanted behavior, to remind her of the dynamic (D/s) that underlies the relationship (romantic) when she "forgets" which dynamic's rules are in place all the time, etc..  That discipline may involve a few hard cracks...not of the funishment kind...across the ass or, as noted a grip of the hair and fingers applied to cheek or it may involve corner time or it may involve writing an essay.  Whatever it takes to get the point across and to change the behavior.  Does that make what I want and will have a punishment dynamic, a discipline dynamic or a mix?  Doesn't matter as the consent will come with knowledge of, and acceptance of, both discipline and punishment.

For me, when I hear a submissive state that withdrawal of their obedience is withdrawal of their consent, several questions come to mind:

Is that something that is done whenever you are ordered to do something you don't want/feel like doing or when you are angry/unhappy/frustrated/disappointed with your dominant?

Do you then realize that it is YOUR behavior, and your wants/needs/desires which govern your behavior...that controls the relationship?  Which ...when taken another way but along the same line as someone else mentionsed...means that to hang onto the relationship, he must not do anything that would result in your disobedience. 

I'm not saying that a D/s relationship cannot occur in which there is no discipline, no punishment.  I am sure there are submissives out there who submit to someone without any discipline or punishment within the relationship being necessary because both are even-keeled and obey/command properly at all times;  I am sure that there are those D/s dynamics in which disobedience does not mean withdrawal of consent, it simply means disobedience and that these couples, without benefit of discipline/punishment, get past the disobedience in some way in which the dominant retains control.  I myself find it difficult to conceive of a D/s dynamic in which there is no need for discipline.


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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 12:38:56 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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quote:

Does no "punishment" mean there are no means by which your dominant redirects a behaviour/attitude he does not approve of?


If Sir required a major redirection from me because he didn't approve, I think he'd be better off finding someone he did approve of. lol  I mean, seriously...

As for little things, like leaving too many lights on or forgetting to bring in his newspaper, sure he has ways of correcting me or getting the results he wants.  Sometimes, it just a matter of continual remindings while I develop new habits.  In the case of the newspaper, he linked it to another behavior so that everytime I did the one thing, I remembered his newspaper.  But, these things aren't so much issues of obedience so much as they are issues of training.


_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 12:45:24 PM   
gypsygrl


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From: new york state
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quote:

Is that something that is done whenever you are ordered to do something you don't want/feel like doing or when you are angry/unhappy/frustrated/disappointed with your dominant?


Good god, no.  As I've said in my original post, I obey.  Regardless of whether or not I want to.

quote:

Do you then realize that it is YOUR behavior, and your wants/needs/desires which govern your behavior...that controls the relationship?  Which ...when taken another way but along the same line as someone else mentionsed...means that to hang onto the relationship, he must not do anything that would result in your disobedience.  


Since I am obedience driven, this question/statement doesn't apply.  And, I addressed the 'who's really running the ship?' question earlier, in reply to daddysprop.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 1:04:34 PM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

it is by no means the only reason a sub or slave may be punished.


I'm curious about other reasons for punishment beyond disobedience.  Could you list some?

quote:

but looking at it another way, that would be placing the ultimate authority in  YOUR hands. if you have the power to terminate the relationship, simply by being disobedient no less...then who is really running the ship? 



We both are "running the ship" at least when it comes to defining our basic relationship dynamic.  Its a joint venture, one that we're engaged in together.  As I indicated in my original post, its not just that I obey, but also, and more importantly, that he gives me orders I can obey.  In this, he allows my obedience.


hopefully, all of our Masters issue commands that we can obey. to issue a command that one's slave cannot possibly obey seems rather pointless and silly, no? but that does not mean that one cannot consciously choose to disobey...or more commonly, have a great deal of difficulty obeying a specific order. the desire and will, and of course the ability, to obey are there, but the reality of actually carrying it out may be a difficult process. most of us experience these hiccups from time to time.

still, i have to disagree with the concept of one's obedience or lack of determining one's consent. but then, i believe in giving consent only once...after that, my consent is a moot point because i am now property. i also disagree with the concept that "both" parties run the ship...in this household, there is only one Captain, and only he has the power to terminate the relationship.

as for reasons for punishment outside of disobedience...i think that you and i have been down this road before. but i will share with you that in the nearly 9 yrs i have been owned, i have only willfully disobeyed my Master once. and for that, i received a severe punishment...not a free pass out of the relationship. usually i am punished for repeating the same mistakes time and time again (could be as minor as leaving a light on or not being on time when preparing to go out), inappropriate speech, failing to complete chores on time or failing to successfully complete any of the tasks that are expected of me. none of these things are acts of disobedience, and all warrant punishment in this household.

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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 4:13:27 PM   
InTonguesslave


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Status: offline 		you know, i love the term funishment, but it really doesnt apply to everyone and every situation and coining it every time the issue of punishment comes along is actually somewhat patronising and belittling.  for some people the dynamic is very real, never taken lightly and is done to benefit a relationship and move it along.

ive noticed that Sir doesnt tend to like repeating himself and i have to admit i recoil inwardly when i realise that i have done something that results in him having to repeat himself.  its a waste of his energy and his time.  its not that im a slow learner, im not, its not that i dont want him in my life, because i do, but ill admit that there is an element in me that tests and pushes largely because i have yet to accept complete ownership of me by anyone, largely because no man so far has ever stood firm consistantly and intelligently enough for me to stick around for long, its not him im fighting, its me and he recognises that and deals with it according to the dynamic we are building.

so - i have incurred punishment/discipline, not funishment, not role play, not something destructive or negative just a process that makes me stop and think before i act.  its blunt and to the point and for me it needs to be there.  for how long i dont know, i hope not forever.

amongst it is a self destructive thing that if allowed could easily destroy what we've found.  it gives me security to know that he isnt prepared to let that happen.

so for me it isnt about consent so much, he has my consent, he had it when i agreed to take the Ms path with him, its about being mindful of each step i take and the processes involved and when i resist its not me renaiging on that consent, he has it, to take it away would end everything.  its me holding back and if he didnt push me past that id swerve out of reach.  i dont want to swerve out of his reach, he's the Master ive been waiting for and the stubborn streak in me needs to break down and cry. 

(aka lally)

< Message edited by InTonguesslave -- 2/13/2009 4:14:15 PM >

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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 5:24:28 PM   
gypsygrl


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From: new york state
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quote:

i also disagree with the concept that "both" parties run the ship...in this household, there is only one Captain


Well, he wanted something more along the lines of a partnership.  It took me some time to get used to, but, its not as bad as I thought it would be once I worked through some resistences.  But, yeah, I'm familiar enough with your postings to get the general gist of your relationship with your Master.  Sir and I don't have that sort of relationship and his expectations of me are probably different.  We've got something that works for us given our personalities, desires, preferences, values etc.  I don't think that there was anything in my op to suggest that it would or should work for anyone else or was applicable to all cases of the D/s or M/s type.

quote:

none of these things are acts of disobedience 


I dunno.  They don't seem all that far from what I'm thinking of as disobedience.  In any case, I don't want to get into a semantical discussion.  And forgive me if I'm trying your patience, but I don't remember having gone down this road before.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 5:42:33 PM   
gypsygrl


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From: new york state
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quote:

And yet this can be reasonably interpretted as you having your Sir trained to perfection


I suppose.  Maybe its that he's got me trained the way he likes me which is an equally plausible interpretation.   Or, it could be that we're just be kind of compatible in most areas.

quote:

For me, obeying me or my rules isn't enough to qualify as consent.  Her agreeing to be in a relationship with me means her consent is always implied and from there it's not something she can choose to "switch" on or off depending on the command she's given.  The balance is that if I were one to habitually give onerous commands, it's reasonable to assume there wouldn't be a relationship.  But while there is, she obeys even allowing for occasionally normal human conditions such as reluctance and unwillingness etc. 


I think we're in aggreement here.  I don't switch my obedience on and off depending on the command.  Nor do I withdraw consent and give it back depending on the relative humidity or wind speed.  I was talking in terms of consenting to the relationship in a general way, and not specific things within that relationship.  In this sense, obedience is foundational.  I obeyed him before I was sure I liked him, before I trusted him, or felt much affection towards him.  I've always more or less obeyed him, even as we were negotiating the guts of our relationship.  And, he's always given me something to obey.

quote:

And the fact is that any partner will make you angry sometimes and when my girl brings that out in me, she gets marched to the corner (punished) until I'm no longer angry. 


I'm a firm believer in taking responsibility for my feelings.  This means, my partner doesn't make me mad.  I make me mad.  The one time Sir has  told me to go to my room it was because I've been rather giddy and needed to calm myself.  That wasn't punishment.  I hadn't done anything wrong.  But, I still needed to calm myself.  So, his sending me to my room was providing me with an environment where I could pull myself together.  I went to my room without question because, well, he told me to and I do what I'm told.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 5:52:01 PM   
MG4Apuppygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl


I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  When I say that "my obedience IS my consent" I mean the two are coterminous in that the one--obedience--bears witness to the other--consent.  I don't consent to obedience.  I just obey and so long as I am obeying I am consenting, in a performative sense.  When the obedience stops, so does the consent and, if that were to happen, the relationship as we know it would be over.  The thing to emphasize here, for mine and Sir's relationship, is that I do obey and he doesn't make it overly difficult for me to do so.


HUH? Now I'm just totally confused. Black and white it ain't, but if floats your boat then that's your problem I guess.

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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 5:56:25 PM   
QuixoticErrant


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quote:

Thats the rub: it doesn't. It can't and it couldn't. At least not in my little world, though it might have a place in the worlds of others. Here's my thinking on why--if, as I've explained, my obedience constitutes my consent, punishing me for disobedience would be punishing me for withdrawing consent. In that moment, the moment of punishment, the relationship would become abusive because my ability to consent would be rendered invalid.
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I was just reading through missturbation's anger/abuse thread and had a couple of chains of thought that helped me to clarify to myself why I recoil at the thought of being involved in a relationship either based on punishment, or where the potential for punishment is an ever present reality.  I had one of those "ah hah" moments so thought I'd share.  Cuz, like, ya know, everybody is just dying to know about my ah hah moments. (note self-deprecating sarcasm lol)

Anyway, I don't like punishment, and I won't get involved in a relationship where punishment plays a heavy part in defining the dynamic.  Sir has never really punished me except maybe early on, when we were still working through the basics of our relationship.  In spite of this, I still do what he tells me to, even when I'm in a bad mood and cranky and don't really want to get his goddamn lunch.  Those times are rare, and its even rarer that he gives me an order that seriously tests my limits.  When pushing, he'll make suggestions or allude to desires but won't out and out order me to do something.  This makes my obedience possible.  He gives me orders I can obey and doesn't give me orders that are beyond me.

Why is this important?  Well, because, as it dawned on me just a few minutes ago, my continuing obedience constitutes my consent to the on-going relationship.  Everytime I do what he tells me, or follow through on a suggestion, I am, in effect, saying, "yes sir, I am yours."  And, if I fail to obey (in a willful way, not because extenuating circumstances, momentary lapses of ability etc got in the way) I am withdrawing consent.   And, if he were to start giving me orders I had to refuse, he would, in effect, be saying he doesn't want my simple obedience anymore but is more interested in something else, something I might not be able to give (again, ruling out extenuating circumstances, mistakes and that sort of thing).

So, where does punishment come in.  Thats the rub: it doesn't.  It can't and it couldn't. At least not in my little world, though it might have a place in the worlds of others.  Here's my thinking on why--if, as I've explained, my obedience constitutes my consent, punishing me for disobedience would be punishing me for withdrawing consent.  In that moment, the moment of punishment, the relationship would become abusive because my ability to consent would be rendered invalid. 

It seems really clear to me as I type this out in an early morning caffein buzz (love those first cups of coffee!).  I wonder if it makes sense to others.


I think you have reached a certain type of ideal in your relationship.  I completely hear you.

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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 6:15:53 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

i also disagree with the concept that "both" parties run the ship...in this household, there is only one Captain


Well, he wanted something more along the lines of a partnership.  It took me some time to get used to, but, its not as bad as I thought it would be once I worked through some resistences.  But, yeah, I'm familiar enough with your postings to get the general gist of your relationship with your Master.  Sir and I don't have that sort of relationship and his expectations of me are probably different.  We've got something that works for us given our personalities, desires, preferences, values etc.  I don't think that there was anything in my op to suggest that it would or should work for anyone else or was applicable to all cases of the D/s or M/s type.

quote:

none of these things are acts of disobedience 


I dunno.  They don't seem all that far from what I'm thinking of as disobedience.  In any case, I don't want to get into a semantical discussion.  And forgive me if I'm trying your patience, but I don't remember having gone down this road before.


no worries, it's no biggie. i'll just say that the difference between disobedience and the types of things that i've listed, for us, would be this: when/if i disobey, i've made a conscious choice/decision to go against his will. and for me to make such a choice is the absolute most grave offense that i can commit within our relationship.

so an example of disobedience would be, he's commanded me to do something and i refuse or make the choice NOT to do it. the one instance in which this has occured was a verbal assignment...i was commanded to make a certain statement X number of times...i hesitated to obey at all, and then only made the statement half the commanded number of times. this was a conscious choice on my part to not do as i was told. although my reasoning for making this choice may have been logical or understandable, the fact that i chose to disobey could not be ignored or go unpunished.

otoh, neglecting to turn off the television (something that would never be an explicit command but more along the lines of common sense proper behavior) when i leave a room, accidentally overcooking his eggs in the morning, forgetting to show proper gratitude during sexual use, etc...would be examples of lack of attention or focus, poor time management, things of that nature, and are normal and very human mistakes. while i will always strive for perfection in my service to him, perfection can never be achieved and that is why punishment will always be a part of my life.

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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 6:30:51 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

Why is this important?  Well, because, as it dawned on me just a few minutes ago, my continuing obedience constitutes my consent to the on-going relationship.  Everytime I do what he tells me, or follow through on a suggestion, I am, in effect, saying, "yes sir, I am yours."  And, if I fail to obey (in a willful way, not because extenuating circumstances, momentary lapses of ability etc got in the way) I am withdrawing consent.   And, if he were to start giving me orders I had to refuse, he would, in effect, be saying he doesn't want my simple obedience anymore but is more interested in something else, something I might not be able to give (again, ruling out extenuating circumstances, mistakes and that sort of thing).

So, where does punishment come in.  Thats the rub: it doesn't.  It can't and it couldn't. At least not in my little world, though it might have a place in the worlds of others.  Here's my thinking on why--if, as I've explained, my obedience constitutes my consent, punishing me for disobedience would be punishing me for withdrawing consent.  In that moment, the moment of punishment, the relationship would become abusive because my ability to consent would be rendered invalid. 

It seems really clear to me as I type this out in an early morning caffein buzz (love those first cups of coffee!).  I wonder if it makes sense to others.


yes.... it makes sense to me... almost.

First... yes.. obedience is consenting to the relationship...  but keep in mine that obedience is not the only way consent is recieved... in fact... obedience is more a demonstration of consent.  Also.. obedience doesn't always speak to the motivation of the person.  It is important to understand why they are obeying.   Someone has a gun to your head and tells you to strip... does that obedience mean you are consenting to stipping for him?  I think one needs to becareful in assuming that all obedience is a demonstration of consent.

Second... If your relationship structure is about a total transfer of authority from the slave to the Master.. then willfull disobedience is the withdrawing of consent.. and as such.. total transfer of authority has stopped occuring!  But... does that mean the person's M/s relationship stops.  In my world... the M/s relationship would stop!  But does mean that there isn't a relationship?  Willfull disobedience for me would mean the M/s would be dead... and as such... so would the relationship for others that is not going to be the case.   There is many that want to do Total Authority Transfer or Total Power Exchange.  but they build in escape clauses that in effect puts the authority or exchange on hold but doesn't scarifice the relationship.  I don't build an escape clause of this nature.. anymore than a person expects complete fidelity/faithfulness of their partner.

Third... Punishment in general is used for disobedience.  and... in my world it's not needed... because as you say.. with disobedience.. the M/s dynamic is dead and as such so is the relationship... so really what is the point of punishment for a dead relationship.  but... for those that have escape clause of disobedience.. they also have a trap door that lets them back in.. and that is through punishment.  For many.. punishment is part of the reconcilation process that restores the Total Authority Transfer or Total Power Exchange.  It restores it because.. even though the M/s dynamic is in crisis... the relationship is not considered dead.  Punishment for these dynamics is very real.. and might be even very effective.... However.. if one is always using the escape clause and coming back in at the trap door... well.. it really is only a matter of time that the relationship will become dysfunctional and die.  With all this.. I think you can see that the punishment wouldn't be abuse for them.. in fact.. it would be a healing!


Now... you have traced my own dynamic logic of why I don't have punishment for disobedience. 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 9:01:05 PM   
abuddingdom


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/8/2007
Status: offline 		A sort of circle is completing in my house on this Fri the 13th , as I'm ending my day responding to gypsy's post, which is how she started her day......

I've read her post & the replies, pro&con her "aha!" moment, & in no reply did I see the words "power exchange".  Thats what it's about, no? We've negotiated, & negotiated, & negotiated some more. I know her limits, & respect them. I've pushed some, over time, with satisfactory results for both of us, but most I've left alone. They're good limits for her, for her reasons. I've found in my time with gypsy that to respect&understand her limits(& treating her with understanding&respect)results in her obedience, her desire to obey me&her satisfaction in doing so. We're both getting what we want. At this point in my journey I don't want someone obeying me under the threat of punishment, but because they want to obey me&respect me enough to obey me.& I know enough of her journey to know what she doesn't need, & as I live with her & know her on a daily basis the more I know that she does need(&I'll daresay viceversa).

In my past D/s & Top/bottom relationships(there's been more of the latter than the former) there was a very overt punishment dynamic. Some of it was real punishment for infractions but more was funishment&even whimsical. I've gotten serious in my lifestyle with  my gypsygrl. Partly because it was  my time for me to do it, but also  because she takes her submission  very very seriously - its who&what she is. She needs protocol&steadiness&lots &lots of structure & I saw early on that whims aren't healthy for her. So yes,  in a way she's inspired me Daddysprop247, inspired me to be the captain, of which "there is only one in this household". Gypsy has zero desire to be the boss&anyone who knows her whether in her everyday  world or through her forum posts knows she couldn't thrive or even survive in that kind of realtionship.  RealSub58 asks if  no punishment means no redirection, & my reply would be far from it - redirection occurs around here. we're a D/s couple, 24/7 & in every sense that entails. But as gypsy said its more a question of training , & her learning from my teaching, than punishing. & also as she says, there's very much an element of partnership . Though I make the rules & she follows them, & I oversee& control virtually all aspects of her daily living& my word is the last word I consider her my partner -this is how I want it, she's responded to what I want,& this works for us.  &again - its all negotiated. Power exchange, people, power exchange......


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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 9:31:09 PM   
Focus50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I'm a firm believer in taking responsibility for my feelings.  This means, my partner doesn't make me mad.  I make me mad.  The one time Sir has  told me to go to my room it was because I've been rather giddy and needed to calm myself.  That wasn't punishment.  I hadn't done anything wrong.  But, I still needed to calm myself.  So, his sending me to my room was providing me with an environment where I could pull myself together.  I went to my room without question because, well, he told me to and I do what I'm told.

I don't entirely agree here....
 
Yes, I'm all for a sub taking responsibility for their feelings etc but not to a point where they bottle-up anger.  Sometimes the girl needs to vent and I understand that, even when I'm the cause and target of her tirade. 
 
Sure, I could pull rank but I find it more beneficial to just sit there all calm and composed while she lets it all out and there inevitably comes a point where she feels like a right goose for forgetting her place and then we talk through it - as equal adults....  And no, I've never punished a sub for venting steam - partly because it's not my place to punish an equal adult but mostly because bearing the brunt of her venting is not something that's likely to anger me, no matter what she calls me.  I understand what it is (venting) and besides, the look on her face once she realises she's seemingly in charge for those moments and how quickly she retreats are amongst those priceless moments in a D/s relationship.  And the "retreat" is also a healthy sign that the anger is purged and "normal programming" may resume....
 
And sure, I've also sent the girl away to compose herself just as I've sent her to bed when I know she's tired, no matter how much she thinks she isn't.  I've often said that being generally observant is my most beneficial trait as a Dom....
 
Getting me angry is not an easy thing for my girl to achieve but it does happen (very occasionally) - that's how I define punishment.  Being a bit bratty or a playful pest etc also doesn't get me angry so how I usually put an end to it is also how I define discipline.  She mostly gets the last word on discipline; usually "owwww"....  lol
 
Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

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RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/13/2009 10:22:03 PM   
QuixoticErrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

Why is this important?  Well, because, as it dawned on me just a few minutes ago, my continuing obedience constitutes my consent to the on-going relationship.  Everytime I do what he tells me, or follow through on a suggestion, I am, in effect, saying, "yes sir, I am yours."  And, if I fail to obey (in a willful way, not because extenuating circumstances, momentary lapses of ability etc got in the way) I am withdrawing consent.   And, if he were to start giving me orders I had to refuse, he would, in effect, be saying he doesn't want my simple obedience anymore but is more interested in something else, something I might not be able to give (again, ruling out extenuating circumstances, mistakes and that sort of thing).

So, where does punishment come in.  Thats the rub: it doesn't.  It can't and it couldn't. At least not in my little world, though it might have a place in the worlds of others.  Here's my thinking on why--if, as I've explained, my obedience constitutes my consent, punishing me for disobedience would be punishing me for withdrawing consent.  In that moment, the moment of punishment, the relationship would become abusive because my ability to consent would be rendered invalid. 

It seems really clear to me as I type this out in an early morning caffein buzz (love those first cups of coffee!).  I wonder if it makes sense to others.


yes.... it makes sense to me... almost.

First... yes.. obedience is consenting to the relationship...  but keep in mine that obedience is not the only way consent is recieved... in fact... obedience is more a demonstration of consent.  Also.. obedience doesn't always speak to the motivation of the person.  It is important to understand why they are obeying.   Someone has a gun to your head and tells you to strip... does that obedience mean you are consenting to stipping for him?  I think one needs to becareful in assuming that all obedience is a demonstration of consent.

Second... If your relationship structure is about a total transfer of authority from the slave to the Master.. then willfull disobedience is the withdrawing of consent.. and as such.. total transfer of authority has stopped occuring!  But... does that mean the person's M/s relationship stops.  In my world... the M/s relationship would stop!  But does mean that there isn't a relationship?  Willfull disobedience for me would mean the M/s would be dead... and as such... so would the relationship for others that is not going to be the case.   There is many that want to do Total Authority Transfer or Total Power Exchange.  but they build in escape clauses that in effect puts the authority or exchange on hold but doesn't scarifice the relationship.  I don't build an escape clause of this nature.. anymore than a person expects complete fidelity/faithfulness of their partner.

Third... Punishment in general is used for disobedience.  and... in my world it's not needed... because as you say.. with disobedience.. the M/s dynamic is dead and as such so is the relationship... so really what is the point of punishment for a dead relationship.  but... for those that have escape clause of disobedience.. they also have a trap door that lets them back in.. and that is through punishment.  For many.. punishment is part of the reconcilation process that restores the Total Authority Transfer or Total Power Exchange.  It restores it because.. even though the M/s dynamic is in crisis... the relationship is not considered dead.  Punishment for these dynamics is very real.. and might be even very effective.... However.. if one is always using the escape clause and coming back in at the trap door... well.. it really is only a matter of time that the relationship will become dysfunctional and die.  With all this.. I think you can see that the punishment wouldn't be abuse for them.. in fact.. it would be a healing!


Now... you have traced my own dynamic logic of why I don't have punishment for disobedience. 


This was very well said.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/14/2009 6:41:31 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		It depends.  I have been in a D/s relationship where I punished for her being rude, for wrecking her car, etc. - standard stuff.

I have also been in a discipline-only relationship in which an abused woman needed someone to set parameters and enforce them for her to feel safe.  I began with the rule of no self-injury - no self-cutting or overtaking meds - and began giving her weekly goals such as work-ralated achievables.

Her parents had never given her rules or stood behind them, and it was something she needed, as a developmental stage she never had.

_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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(in reply to QuixoticErrant)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/14/2009 7:19:55 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MG4Apuppygirl

Don't confuse punishment, with discipline. Your definition of punishment may be someone elses mandatory form of discipline. Anyway, if you have consented to obedience, then you would have consented to not being disobedient. How can you possibly withdraw consent in an instance and deem the dynamic "abusive", just because you don't like to be punished, or you failed to concentrate on the "duty" you consented to in the first place. What kind of theory is that?      


I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  When I say that "my obedience IS my consent" I mean the two are coterminous in that the one--obedience--bears witness to the other--consent.  I don't consent to obedience.  I just obey and so long as I am obeying I am consenting, in a performative sense.  When the obedience stops, so does the consent and, if that were to happen, the relationship as we know it would be over.  The thing to emphasize here, for mine and Sir's relationship, is that I do obey and he doesn't make it overly difficult for me to do so.


I find that have realistic expectations for behavior coupled with an understanding that we all make mistakes goes a long way in helping a Ds or M/s dynamic thrive. Fox makes mistakes but he does disobey. I make mistakes but I never give up my responsibilities as the owner. Maybe we have simplistic view of our world but at the core that is what defines our dynamic.

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(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/14/2009 7:29:25 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

Is that something that is done whenever you are ordered to do something you don't want/feel like doing or when you are angry/unhappy/frustrated/disappointed with your dominant?


Good god, no.  As I've said in my original post, I obey.  Regardless of whether or not I want to.



This is how we work as well. Fox knows that when he recognized my ownership of him, at that moment he had only two choices left: obey or leave.

quote:



quote:

Do you then realize that it is YOUR behavior, and your wants/needs/desires which govern your behavior...that controls the relationship?  Which ...when taken another way but along the same line as someone else mentionsed...means that to hang onto the relationship, he must not do anything that would result in your disobedience.  




*arches an eyebrow*

I'd say that an owner who allows themselves to be manipulated in that fashion has lost sight of her role as owner.

I run things with myself in mind, first and foremost. I do consider Fox because I prefer cheerful high-quality service and obedience and because I value him greatly -- he is my most valuable possession and my third most valuable relationship after myself and my marriage.

A later post mentioned not being able to obey inspite of the intention to do so. That confuses me.

Inability or errors I do not consider disobedience at all. Inability or error may be a factor of the slave's lack of information or focus or my own errors in explaining what I want done. Sadly Fox has not yet acquire the ability to read my mind so if I want good service I best invest in learning to give clear commands. Errors, I don't expect perfection therefore we correct errors around here and then move on. I would only punish once of what might be called direct disobedience or blatant disobedience by some -- if I had to do it again, well, he's my consensual slave, I shouldn't have to do it again and so far in 9+ years I haven't had to.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/14/2009 8:13:42 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
For many.. punishment is part of the reconcilation process that restores the Total Authority Transfer or Total Power Exchange.  It restores it because.. even though the M/s dynamic is in crisis... the relationship is not considered dead.  Punishment for these dynamics is very real.. and might be even very effective.... However.. if one is always using the escape clause and coming back in at the trap door... well.. it really is only a matter of time that the relationship will become dysfunctional and die.  With all this.. I think you can see that the punishment wouldn't be abuse for them.. in fact.. it would be a healing!



This is one of the best descriptions of punishment I've seen.  I would guess that (at least this would have been the case in my former relationship) if someone is having a revolving door approach to the same issues, then that would lead them to believe there is a deeper problem that needs addressing.

I do agree with daddysprop in that (again, as has been my own experience) punishment can be rendered for evidence of not being mindful, which is different than willful disobedience.  There is also the issue of "subconscious" disobedience, which can occur with a new slave/submissive who is still mentally and emotionally adjusting to her/his slavery and who may not always understand why she/he resists certain things.

What's interesting to me in retrospect is to consider the main cause of my former punishments in the first couple of years of that relationship, which had to do with occasional attitude.  Now that time and space has brought clarity, the underlying catalyst for that attitude was emotional injury, which I didn't see before, and apparently neither did he.  Gypsygirl mentioned her Sir not requiring things of her she can not meet...but sometimes such things are not recognized at the outset.  I believe this is where self awareness is crucial to these types of relationships.

This has been an interesting discussion to read.  I'm glad it was put out here.


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(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: My obedience IS my consent - 2/14/2009 9:10:07 AM   
feydeplume


Posts: 935
Joined: 12/24/2008
Status: offline 		I have been reading though this thread and stepping back. My obedience is part of my personality, my acculturation, my ideology. It isn't my consent. My consent is my consent. My complicity, my self determined drive to enforce and strengthen my relationship is not consent. I am not passive in the process, be it BDSM or M/s. I am pro-active in getting his needs and my needs met. Consent has never sat well with me FOR ME as a way of expressing my co-operation and quest to be me. 

_____________________________

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(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 40
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