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Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 4:56:21 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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Over the years I have had people comment to me that "I make submission look easy" or that they can't "see" dominance and submission in my interactions with my partners and that they would never "know" if they didn't "know". Those kind of comments have always confused me a bit and I've wondered what people think it's "supposed to" look like.

I've come to realize though, in looking at the examples of people that I consider to be in successful, healthy D/s or M/s relationships that you don't really "see" the active Dominance or submission for the most part. It's a fluid thing. If I am with a partner who I am submissive to, he really doesn't have to be actively dominating in an outward way...I simply take that submissive role. There isn't any ongoing struggle so there really is no need for outward displays. Our ability to mesh together does make the dominance and submission invisible to the untrained eye.

I wonder though, if the inability to see this is where some of the "not dominant or submissive enough" stuff comes from. Maybe people are looking for something that appears to be more visible and they don't realize that when they see that, what they are seeing is a struggle. Maybe they don't realize that when two people are meshed together in a D/s or M/s relationship and both of those people have taken the positions in the relationship that they profess is the position that fulfills them...it's not visible. It just simply flows.

Just some random thoughts in a brain that hasn't had enough coffee....what are yours????

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

Post #: 1

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 5:01:24 AM

CatdeMedici

Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
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I would agree erin, one seldom sees the overt signs of a successful relationship, it simply is.

Yet we as humans tend to want to emulate others, thinking if we mimic, we become.

_____________________________

I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 2

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 5:19:22 AM

chezzy71

Posts: 412
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline

Here,here!!..there should not be an exact way for anyone to act..if it is acting then it is not real.

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 3

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 5:28:24 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

I have to wonder if maybe this is why so many feel that they can't find what they are looking for. Maybe once the relationship settles into the routine that is actually a sign of success and that active domination and submission becomes less visible, they see it as a breakdown or failure of the relationship.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 4

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 5:31:18 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

When some one says not submissive enough (or not dominant enough) they are missing they last part of the sentence...

"You are not submissive enough according to my values, training or world view of submission."

They refuse to take ownership of their feelings and would rather project it on to you.

Taking ownership of your thoughts and feelings shows a person that is mature and responsible, also self aware and a good communicator, these are great traits in humans in any lifestyle.

Not taking ownership speaks equally as loud about what level of maturity they are at in their lives and what sort of communication you can expect from them in the future. So when someone says something as ignorant as "you are not submissive enough" it is a wonderful crimson flag that they are waving about who they are and what they are all about.

You can then make what ever decisions feel right to you about further involvement with them.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to chezzy71)

Post #: 5

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 5:51:50 AM

CatdeMedici

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Joined: 10/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have to wonder if maybe this is why so many feel that they can't find what they are looking for. Maybe once the relationship settles into the routine that is actually a sign of success and that active domination and submission becomes less visible, they see it as a breakdown or failure of the relationship.

I am major agreement--we as has been mentioned here on the boards see people and relationships these days as disposable--far too many people want the Emeril BAM, ALL the time--that's not realistic, IMHO, the BAM dies into a momentum and rythmn, when it becomes that people think, uh oh boring, its over.

<ok off topic, I am not into girls but damn crouchingtigress that's one hot shot>

< Message edited by CatdeMedici -- 2/9/2009 5:52:51 AM >

_____________________________

I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 6

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 6:18:35 AM

mistoferin

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Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

So many people are into the sexual aspect or the show aspect. Don't get me wrong, those are important components too. But the reality is that there are 23 other hours in the day...lol. Someone said to me that if things are being done "because" of the show, then they are meaningless and hollow. I think that is very true and I believe that so many people are looking for or are so hung up on the "show" that it causes them to never actually know what the "meat" tastes like.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 7

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 6:42:59 AM

oceanwynds

Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

Mistoferin
Thank you for all your posts on this thread. You have answered some questions for me that have been floating in my head.

blessings
oceanwynds

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 8

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 6:55:08 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

<ok off topic, i am not into girls but damn crouchingtigress that's one hot shot>

*blushes*....come to the dark side.....we have cookies!

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 9

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 7:07:06 AM

chiaThePet

Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline

You mean not everyone is wearing the Manolo Blahnik Submissive Sneaker Stilettos with Rainbow Pom Poms?

Crap.

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 10

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 7:18:21 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Over the years I have had people comment to me that "I make submission look easy" or that they can't "see" dominance and submission in my interactions with my partners and that they would never "know" if they didn't "know". Those kind of comments have always confused me a bit and I've wondered what people think it's "supposed to" look like.

erin,
Funny huh? There's a mind-set that says if its not difficult or a challenge it's not worth having, or at minimum worth less. I don't think either side has the 'one true answer'. I think it is better to consider the 'one true result' - the relationship gets to a common goal where all involved are rewarded.

It's almost time for 'spring training' so I'll use a baseball analogy...

It was said that Joe DiMaggio's (YEAH-I'm that old!) "made it look easy". He seemed to know where the ball was headed off the sound it made from hitting the bat and glided to a ball and caught it casually for an 'out'. Playing in the same outfield sometime later, Mickey Rivers would run after the ball and made it look like he would never get there until a final burst of speed, an extended arm, a diving stretch, and the result - an 'out'. Both got their goal, both were satisfying to themselves and their team-mate partners.

Does it matter how they were inspired to reach that goal? Which took more effort? Simple physics will tell you that an equal amount of effort is necessary to get from point 'A' to point 'B' no matter how it looks from the perspective of an outside observer. Joe always liked to maintain his image of making it look easy. Mickey liked to make it look hard. Their partners? Well they had their own motivations, liking Mickey's flash for its time, and Joe's understated elegance in his.

The point is, if you serve your relationship and your partner's preference image - get your 'out' and don't worry what people think who've never 'played' the 'game' and just bought a ticket to observe, or a paper to read the box scores and make profound comments regarding what the players did wrong.

(Stipulating that it's not 'play' and not a 'game'; but I just loved the metaphoric reference!)

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/9/2009 7:50:45 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 11

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 7:21:25 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

One of my favorite compliments to receive is "you seem to know what he wants without him even asking". What they don't realize is that he does tell me what he wants, it is essentially invisible to others if they don't know what to look for. Once you learn what to look for, it is rather obvious.

The three of us are so in-tune with each other that many things we can do without alot of discussion between us. If he wants something done that requires more specific instruction it is usually done very quietly and without fanfare.

Some people like the outward displays and those in and of themselves doesn't mean the relationship is not healthy. The motivation for their behavior is more important in determining the health or not of the relationship.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 12

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 7:30:58 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have to wonder if maybe this is why so many feel that they can't find what they are looking for. Maybe once the relationship settles into the routine that is actually a sign of success and that active domination and submission becomes less visible, they see it as a breakdown or failure of the relationship.

Sure they do...witness the thread from 2 - 4 weeks ago started by Knight about how some seem to need that overt expression of dominance. Views were expressed ranging from "you need to keep reminding me of why I submitted to you in the first place by showing your dominance" to "there has to be that overt display for me to feel like he is something more than any other domineering man" to "I get bored easily when things settle into a routine".

I like ritual and protocol. I think they are a necessary part of the D/s dynamic but they do not have to be a big show nor do they have to involve a lot of verbal expression in the form commands and pronouncements of obedience. I like the way Cat put it...in MY view, too many people want the Emeril "BAM" all the time and for me, it reminds me wayyyyyyyy too much of those vanilla wives and girlfriends who expect ongoing, 24/7 courtship in order to give up a fuck. It doesn't work for me. Any dynamic...whether or not it is D/s...takes work but it should not have to be a full-time job with sign posts planted along the way. I already work full-time and believe it or not, I don't feel like continuing to work every single evening I get home.

Several questions come to my mind and I mentioned these on the other threads...if I have to keep "proving" my dominance to you, then it seems that you didn't really believe I had it fully in the first place. So why did you choose to submit to me? If you cannot believe and trust in something without the "evidence" being in front of you all the time, what type of issues do you have? If you get bored all that quickly when my dominance and your submission are not on overt display all the time, is it D/s that you have a love and a passion for or is it the pageantry/courtship of it?

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 13

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 7:32:54 AM

MarcEsadrian

Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I wonder though, if the inability to see this is where some of the "not dominant or submissive enough" stuff comes from. Maybe people are looking for something that appears to be more visible and they don't realize that when they see that, what they are seeing is a struggle. Maybe they don't realize that when two people are meshed together in a D/s or M/s relationship and both of those people have taken the positions in the relationship that they profess is the position that fulfills them...it's not visible. It just simply flows.

Just some random thoughts in a brain that hasn't had enough coffee....what are yours????

Good thoughts. Quiet harmony is the sign of something working in my opinion, not to mention the fact I find those who value the mystery of what they have to come across as a little more interesting. I would say it may be visible or not, depending upon the knowledge of the observer, but to the casual onlooker it needn't be advertised. Overt displays of dominance and submission have their time and place, of course, but at their heart should be symbiosis, and one that brings peace, not a constant "scene".

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 14

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 8:21:11 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Sure they do...witness the thread from 2 - 4 weeks ago started by Knight about how some seem to need that overt expression of dominance. Views were expressed ranging from "you need to keep reminding me of why I submitted to you in the first place by showing your dominance" to "there has to be that overt display for me to feel like he is something more than any other domineering man" to "I get bored easily when things settle into a routine".

CD, I don't think that I caught the thread that you are referring to, I've been rather busy here lately. I have to say that I think that if a Dominant has to "show" their dominance though, it would be to garner submission that is obviously not there, at least not in that instance or there would be no need for the "show". As for things settling into a routine....funny, I would think that would be the goal. Maybe I'm viewing the word differently but to me "routine" would equate to "flow".

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 15

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 8:27:47 AM

LaTigresse

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Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

I think that perhaps, all too often, people mix up dominance with BDSM acts.

When they say "not expressing dominance" I see someone saying "not doing anything to me to prove dominance", like any one of the fun things we enjoy doing to/having done, to one another......flogging, spanking, etc. Suzie Submissive complains "he hasn't beat my ass in weeks!" translates to "He hasn't expressed his dominance in weeks."

I could be wrong but that's what I always envision it to mean.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 16

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 8:58:11 AM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet
You mean not everyone is wearing the Manolo Blahnik Submissive Sneaker Stilettos with Rainbow Pom Poms?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to chiaThePet)

Post #: 17

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 9:00:38 AM

Vendaval

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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Could part of the "invisible" perception be because the persons involved are not verbalizing very much, because they can already read each others body language and moods so well?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 18

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 9:35:17 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Flash and bang gets a lot of attention. It's a prime cause of burnout in the scene.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 19

RE: Invisible Dominance and submission - 2/9/2009 9:54:18 AM

sailorfrank

Posts: 127
Joined: 6/18/2008
Status: offline

A true couple is blessed when both partners fall into their proper roles. And communicate with each other when their wants come up. That way neither Dom nor Sub will lose the excitment of working together.

It is much better and a lot more fun when both work together at times even with out words!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 20

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