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Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 7:26:59 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		It appears that Congress is giving the big 3 automakers 2 weeks
to devise a "business plan" detailing how they would spend the bail out
money, if they get it.
Congressional Leadership Rejects Proposed Auto Bailout Deal - washingtonpost.com
 
The fact that they are giving them the option and time to come up with a
business plan, indicates to me there is a strong chance that they will get
their "bail out".

Any thoughs on "the plan" they need to devise?
I am thinking smaller, well made fuel efficient cars.
Electric if possible and not too expensive.
I also see the wages being cut.

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 7:52:55 PM   
pahunkboy


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Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Unlikely.

Not until the new administration.   the industry is too inefficient to shift the paradyme, and  that is what they are being asked to do.

the power is leaving the US.  in the new world order the US is maybe 7th on the totem pole.

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 7:56:00 PM   
MzMia


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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Unlikely.

Not until the new administration.   the industry is too inefficient to shift the paradyme, and  that is what they are being asked to do.

the power is leaving the US.  in the new world order the US is maybe 7th on the totem pole.



I was thinking they are trying to delay the decision until Jan. 20.
I don't think they can hang on much longer.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/20/2008 7:58:45 PM >

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 8:46:15 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		I know the unions are being blamed for these failures, but I disagree, unless the ceo is making less that 5-100 times the salary of any professional in the bottom 20th percentile of that workforce, than the blame belongs to everyone.

I  do think we should bail out the 3 car makers left, and I'm going to say something offensive to people who are pure green (as opposed to my modified green stance, lol)...  I like the trucks American carmakers make, because they are the safest (granting only to the people in them).  
I have driven a lexus and a small chevy before;  I've done 360degree turns in the snow with them, and haven't been hurt of died because some angel has held the oncoming traffic at bay until I straightened myself.
I dated a Norwegian who was righteously annoyed with me for driving an SUV, and told me that statistically, the safety in the snow is not that much different from a small car;  I responded that to the numbers I am insignificant, but to my family, the SUV has improved my morbidity and mortality by nearly 100%.   I've never hit anyone with the truck, and when I've been hit once, it didn't hurt at all.   I've also never skidded or done unintended full turns on the road, on the way to work in the snow.

So while I do believe we should bail the automakers out, because I love American cars, and call me protectionist, I think we should keep some things American (especially things like weapons systems and security), I see no reason the automakers cannot make their cars and SUVs at least 50% more fuel efficient.   I see no reason for the big 3 not to pursue improved efficiency and alternative powering sources for our bigger cars (though maybe we don't need all of them), and without those things in the plans, they ought not be bailed out.    M

< Message edited by FullfigRIMAAM1 -- 11/20/2008 9:16:46 PM >

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 9:10:47 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		So the corporate and union execs that could not come up with a workable business plan in the last 30 years are going to do it in two weeks......

What wrong with this picture?


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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 10:24:13 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

It appears that Congress is giving the big 3 automakers 2 weeks
to devise a "business plan" detailing how they would spend the bail out
money, if they get it.
Congressional Leadership Rejects Proposed Auto Bailout Deal - washingtonpost.com
 
The fact that they are giving them the option and time to come up with a
business plan, indicates to me there is a strong chance that they will get
their "bail out".

Any thoughs on "the plan" they need to devise?
I am thinking smaller, well made fuel efficient cars.
Electric if possible and not too expensive.
I also see the wages being cut.


Mz Mia, I've been watching the business channels tonight and I think that it's a "givin'" that the big three will be given loans and a combination of preferred stock as well so us Taxpayers will actually make money.
We can't "not" bail them out.
There's way too many jobs involved, Cramer on "Mad Money" said there'd be 3 million jobs lost in 2009 if we don't help them out.
One in ten jobs in the U.S. is auto related!I also love American cars and trucks!
I just don't "need" a big pick-up truck down South here like I did on the "grass farm" up in New Hampshire.
So  instead I have a new Lincoln MKS which I think is *better* than most imports.
Goes like a bat out of hell with 275 h.p. on regular gas, very comfortable leather seats that are heated and cooled, nav sys, sirius radio with *kick ass* stereo system,, 19" 255 wide tires that really grab the road, every option and gets 21 around town and 27-28 on the highway.
Sure, I miss my F-150 "King Ranch" truck but I'll scrape by!
I wouldn't buy any of G.M.'s or Ford's "common stock" as they say it's worthless.
Boy, with all the down action in the markets now if we have a "bear market rally" of 1,000 or 2,000 points all the "shorts" (people who are betting on it to keep going down) are going to get slaughtered! And we're due for one at anytime now!
The "Bear" eats everyone!

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 10:46:47 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		It is the CEOs.   I love Chevrolets.    I do, but the fact of the matter is they did not supply the US with practical vehicles during the past energy delima.  In my opinion, they made bad decisions; therefore, the should suffer.
The companies need to merge and revamp the entire organizations.
It will hurt a lot of people.  
Bail outs do not save companies because with AIG we watched them have a vacation in the Bahamas.
Obama has already said he would try and help the auto industry during one of his speeches, but I think it should be done with very close accountable process.
 
Regards, MissSCD

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 11:09:57 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		It's not the unions.  Maybe it's the CEO's, but that's not the major problem either.  The major problem is that the American automakers have to pay for employee benefits that their foreign competitors don't, because foreign governments foot the bill for them.  And the most important one is health insurance.  Sorry to bust it to the free-market ideologues on here, but government-underwritten health insurance makes your national manufacturing corporations vastly more competitive.

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/20/2008 11:32:29 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's not the unions.  Maybe it's the CEO's, but that's not the major problem either.  The major problem is that the American automakers have to pay for employee benefits that their foreign competitors don't, because foreign governments foot the bill for them.  And the most important one is health insurance.  Sorry to bust it to the free-market ideologues on here, but government-underwritten health insurance makes your national manufacturing corporations vastly more competitive.


L&M, that's true.
Those health insurance policies are draining the Big 3!
It's a huge handicap for them!
I believe that the U.S. is the last Western country that doesn't have a national healthcare plan.

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 12:19:54 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
It's not the unions.  Maybe it's the CEO's, but that's not the major problem either.  The major problem is that the American automakers have to pay for employee benefits that their foreign competitors don't, because foreign governments foot the bill for them.  And the most important one is health insurance.  Sorry to bust it to the free-market ideologues on here, but government-underwritten health insurance makes your national manufacturing corporations vastly more competitive.
This is true, but free market capitalists don't seem to know this.   I heard Pat Buchanan (who I think is a blowhard most of the time) say on Hardball that free market capitalism is a cute concept only we (Americans) believe in, and agree with him, because all other countries defend and prop up their industries when they have to.
I cannot stand all the tough talk from the free market capitalists on the carmakers now that they've received their $700 billion to prop up their banks.   

I've worked in non union places, and union places, and have enjoyed both under good management.   If the employees are treated well, unions aren't necessary; but in capitalism, where it is okay to screw the holy hell out of the weakest link, unions are very much needed to protect workers.    M

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 12:48:56 AM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

It appears that Congress is giving the big 3 automakers 2 weeks
to devise a "business plan" detailing how they would spend the bail out
money, if they get it.
Congressional Leadership Rejects Proposed Auto Bailout Deal - washingtonpost.com
 
The fact that they are giving them the option and time to come up with a
business plan, indicates to me there is a strong chance that they will get
their "bail out".

Any thoughs on "the plan" they need to devise?
I am thinking smaller, well made fuel efficient cars.
Electric if possible and not too expensive.
I also see the wages being cut.


Hello Mia -

The plan I would would put together---to sell--- would not focus/surround solely on personal transportation vehicles.

I'd want congress and the people/current and potential future shareholders to believe that we, the auto industry, have a true and new vision for future...

Sooner or later our transportation model will be busted and that infrastructure will need to be rebuilt. In essence, I'd show congress a vision that the tool and die/assembly-line part of the manufacturing process can and will, in the near future, become an integral component for the formulation of the new hi-speed, ''Mag-Lev'' transportation system we're going to have to build.






- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 11/21/2008 1:00:27 AM >

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 1:06:00 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

because all other countries defend and prop up their industries when they have to.



I'm not so sure this is the case.

Governments subsidise their industries when they believe it's in the national interest. The French subsidise their agricultural industry as it's significant to the French; the Germans subsidise their coal industry because that's significant to the Germans; the British government doesn't overtly subsidise anything, but will step in to nationalise a failing bank - as Britain is largely a service and financial economy; the US government is propping up banks and large corporations, and invests heavily in the military.

No government in its right mind will or does operate a uniform, laissez faire economic policy because there are certain industries in every nation that are perceived to be vital to the prosperity of that nation, and politicians will not risk the political and social costs of these organisations/industries failing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

but in capitalism, where it is okay to screw the holy hell out of the weakest link



Capitalism itself is not inherently a flawed idea, in the same way the concept of a union is not inherently a flawed idea.

Capitalism is simply a means of investing to generate a return. It is the decision of the owners as to whether they believe the best way to earn a return is to look after their employees, or "screw the holy hell" out of them.

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 1:22:56 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Any thoughs on "the plan" they need to devise?

No.1  Make cars people want to buy.

No.2. Get more customers. (probably the most difficult thing to do in the current economic environment when even successful car companies are laying workers off because of falling sales.)

No.3  Lobby the government for a national health service and social security system which reduces costs of these services dramatically in real terms and shares the burden between the industry and taxpayer.

Answer to irate taxpayer as to why you should support No.3.  The most compelling reason is that it will save you money because you will not be paying for the inflated profits of private medical and insurance companies and you will have more money to spend on inflating the economy.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/21/2008 1:25:19 AM >

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 1:55:44 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Marketing is where much of the failure seems to lie, alongside (I would guess) a huge disconnect between management performance and management remuneration (as seems common these days).

Fire the marketing team, hire in a new one seeking worldwide for expertise and paying whats required.
Reduce upper management remuneration to a percentage of profits - many will leave, but are they worth retaining? Fill the spots with newcomers from medium and lower management and even the shopfloor - in fact, ensure the shopfloor is represented in the boardroom.

Get the banks in for a kicking; part of the problem here is that theyre not loaning money following the bailout such that people can purchase cars.

Strike a new law that says car loans can be repaid over ten years, during which time if the car suffers major faults or mechanical failure, the bank has to pay up for it. Watch how fast quality and service in the car industry improves.

E 



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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 2:15:10 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Marketing is where much of the failure seems to lie, alongside (I would guess) a huge disconnect between management performance and management remuneration (as seems common these days).

Fire the marketing team, hire in a new one seeking worldwide for expertise and paying whats required.



There was a piece on Newsnight not too long ago about the Russian car market which has been one of the fastest growing car markets in recent years. Europe and Japan have been having vast sales there but it was noted, that was not true of America. When asking Russians why they buy certain makes  and why they don't, the answer was they don't buy American makes because Americans don't like us. It was noted a couple of years ago by American industrialists that American foreign policy was effecting American exports. Not that exports would solve the problem, the real problem is Americans don't by American cars. That is some big hurdle to overcome.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/21/2008 2:17:53 AM >

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 2:16:51 AM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline 		  I love the idea of retooling for mass transportation!! It's an environmetally friendly idea. Many, many jobs would be created to build/refurbish our railways. I have heard that the median between our divided highways was devised for rails all along.

  I would use mass transport if it was available.
  

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 2:18:07 AM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		My guess is US Congress tries to maintain facade like serving public interest with this demand that is basically just a PR trick. The car companies will get their billions whatever plan they will come out with. Everybody knows 25 billions will not be sufficient but this is what US government has become: trying to put out fire but being unable to execute any comprehensive long-term solutions. Selectively bailing out selected companies or financial institutions should not be government business but to design and execute policies that do not lead to such massive failures. So, the party who needs to present a plan how to preserve US manufacturing is US Congress not Car companies.

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 2:27:21 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		I am beginning to believe that Chapter 11 may very well be the answer to the Big 3. The inherent costs as they are, will not change with a loan from the Government. I agree that no, we shouldn't let another 3 million people lose their jobs but, under a reorganization they wouldn't have to do so. However it would force everyone to look at the situation and dire consequences as they are and make the decisions that need to be made. I am told<but, not sure> that under Chapter 11 the unions could be forced to re-negotiate their contracts? It would not be unheard of for the restructure of all the salaries and costs involved under re-structure and force a workable plan to be found.
The execs seemed unprepared to such a degree that even Congress has little confidence in them. In this day and age it is easy to take shots at those who lead business and to blame someone that has climbed the ladder in the corporate world and begrudge what they make but, in this case it across the board and will more than likely not be dealt with unless it is forced! Being an entrepreneur I begrudge no one what the market is willing to pay them but from the line up, and the executive suite down there needs to be a revamping of the industry. I guess what I find amazing is that we have known this since the late 70's and are just now forced to face the issues??????
I don't know that they, as an industry do not need to be smaller and that GM couldn't consolidate their brands better or that Ford couldn't do away with Mercury etc. but, I do know that a 25 billion dollar band aid will only prolong the issues unless the cost factors are dealt with and I truly do not see that happening as is. Funny to say, but 25 Billion seems like a very small sum after tossing 750 billion around for the last couple of months!.... If there was a workable plan, one that encompassed all of the issues including, exec and workers pay and benefits, the retirement benefits paid, the structural issues of corporations that have be come too large and unable to be managed as well as some form of an exit plan for those who would lose their jobs I would be all for it. I do not wish to see these icons of American business go down but, the facts are as they are, and they must be dealt with accordingly. Develop a plan that can succeed, consult with those who have done this before. We have flown on Airlines that have been in Chapter 11, we have bought from retailers that have been in chapter 11, we have used services from companies that have been re-organized there is a precedent and companies that have been successful. The auto industry can do the same and come out better as manufacturers and become more responsive to the demands of the consumer.

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 2:51:52 AM   
TheUtopian


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quote:

When asking Russians why they buy certain makes  and why they don't, the answer was they don't buy American makes because Americans don't like us.


This point you make here is bigger and more important than ninety-five percent of the American populace will ever begin to even comprehend.

I pray that Obama will not listen-to or take the advice of a tired old Russian revanchist like Zbigniew Brzezinski, who promotes a domineering, in-your-face policy with the Russians.

Americans have become the type of folks who will not defend themselves after they've been subjugated and kicked in the balls by their own government, yet at a seconds notice they'll become re-invigorated with the fighting spirit after some goober from a cable news program, with a three-thousand dollar suit and fake alligator shoes cons them into believing the Russians are big bullies and our enemy, and sooner or later they're coming to get us.







- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 11/21/2008 3:20:29 AM >

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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 3:09:17 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		In related news....The Yugo died this week!

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212187921.shtml

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