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RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 3:31:06 AM

housesub4you

Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
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Ahhh...what about Japan?

When they went into the auto market, Japanese auto makers sold cars for less than it took to produce them, with the Japanese government keeping them afloat.

Also it was the Japanese governemnt who invested into steel plants so Japanese companies could produce steel for less then the US.

It is also the 'governemnts" that restrict the import of American autos into their markets.

I just think what they are waiting for with the bail out is the American public to get wraped up in the Holiday season, when the news slows down and they will hand them the money, while we are all out shopping.

I do not think they should get the bail-out, I'm so tired of the "Free market" preachers saying when it comes to taking care of the average person the "free market" is what is best for us.

But when big business is in trouble then the hell with "free market" we need government money to stay in business. Let them go to court and file like the rest of this country.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 21

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 3:44:43 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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I would like to see a manufacturer concentrating some useful effort into personal transportation, or a situation where there are only two people that need a vehicle. No, not a bloody great big tank with a monstrous engine, but a light weight tandem seating car, perhaps a three wheeler with a light weight structure and a small air cooled engine. Something like the old bubble cars, a cross between a motorcycle and a car.

Perhaps a modernized version of this ;

http://www.imagesbymichelle.co.uk/meschersmitt%20bubble%20car-w.JPG

This one built in the 1960's did 87 mpg on petrol, not fast, but given the advances that have been made in car technoloogy, could we even see 100mpg on petrol and a more modern speed and range.

As there is only me, and on occaision, one passenger, I would welcome one of these things, if they were available.

Electric cars, though advances have been made, I feel they are a bit far off yet, we need something now to frugally use what fuels we have.

Hey hey, more of this stuff please ;

http://autoreview.belproject.com/item/342

Just think of the export potential, no dicking around with right hand drive and left hand drive cars.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/21/2008 3:49:57 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 4:06:17 AM

StrangerThan

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Joined: 4/25/2008
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The problem I've always seen with the Big 3 is that they're usually dragged kicking and screaming to markets after everyone else was there. As a nation, we were taught an important lesson in the early 70's when gas prices went ballistic and supplies dropped out the bottom. Showing my age here but I lived in California then and the days you could buy gas was tied to your tag number. While I'm sure there were probably other options, the two I remember as a response by the Big 3 were Vega's and Pinto's, two pieces of junk compared to what Japanese car companies were offering when it came to dependability and reliability. Not trying to offend anyone who loved their Vega or Pinto but I was working my way through college in a garage at the time. Vega's had an aluminum motor that warped when it got too hot. Pintos were dogged by the rear-end collision-exploding gas tank image. Its no wonder folks flocked to something else. Admittedly, American's have always had a fondness for gas guzzlers, but if the tide started swinging the other way, it was probably about then. Don't beat me about the head and shoulders over it. Its how I remember it, not as I've researched it.

From that point forward, the hit on reliability is what caused American car makers a lot of suffering. That and the fact that American car makers and big oil have always seemed to work hand in hand. I'm like one of the posters above. I like trucks and suv's. Sue me. I like the improved visibility, the fact there's more metal between my driver's seat and the driver's seat of a small car, and unlike a lot of folks who never get closer to their 4-wheel drive than walking by the letters on the side of the car when they go to get in it, I do use mine occasionally. There's a stretch of beach that runs about 50 miles I like to inhabit on occasion that has no roads, no houses, no electricity, no water and most importantly, very few people. Either way, when I go looking and look at what American makers have to offer, gas consumption is often insane.

Sales have declined every year for the Big 3 for the past 20 years or so. Having worked as a mechanic and having a brother who still does so, I'm not one of those who believe reliability still has such a gap. What I do see as a big problem is that when I go car shopping, the one's that seem geared towards the present and future are from somewhere else, while the big 3 seem to just offer improved, costlier and bigger versions of the same things they've always offered. GM has a winner with its Volt. If it can ever get it to market at a decent price and the thing doesn't break down every few months. Combine all those impressions, along with health and union costs that choke them to death, I don't know as their is a future for the big 3. I think we'll bail them out, but I also think they're a dying breed.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 23

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 4:13:12 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
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Well, I see a lot of great idea's here.
I agree, that they will probably be "bailed out".
I am actually VERY interested in the conditions that
will surround their bail out!

My car has 75,000 miles on it and I will have to think
about another car in the next few years.
Will the Big 3 come up with a great car {not truck}, that I want
and is affordable?

Will they start producing cars that can seriously compete?
For the sake of those that work in the auto industry, I would
love to WANT to buy an affordable, well made GREAT American made car.
{That is made better than the Toyota I currently drive, which is great!}

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Post #: 24

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 4:14:28 AM

LaTigresse

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I loved the bit about how a congressman (sorry don't remember who) questioned a few CEO's about their mode of transportation in traveling to the meeting. The answer was "corporate jet". The congressman was flabergasted. Your company is going down the toilet, your whining about losing money, yet you still own and USE a corporate jet for travel. Guess they are not so broke that they have to lower themselves to flying first class, or god forbid COACH!!!

That's rather like having a limo take you to apply for food stamps.

Sorry, but if that is an indication of their money management, let them sink.

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Post #: 25

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 4:38:42 AM

Dnomyar

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The big 3 are crying about going into chapter 11. Thats total BS. Look how Kia came out of it. From producing a junk car to producing a very good one.

As far as producing bubble cars. What if you have several kids.

MzMia if you have that man y miles on your car trade it in now or it will be useless for a trade in. They will tell you to try to sell it yourself.

housesub the Japan car companies are also in trouble now.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 26

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 5:41:05 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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Dnomyar - there was a feature on Toyota in the UK on the news this morning.

Whilst BMW closes down two UK factories in early December for five weeks (which is a royal pain the neck for me), and automotive manufacturers here generally are laying off people all over the place, Toyota have not laid one person off and theyre not closing down - they have restructured their shifts to reflect demand and are retaining their people, using the gap to train them and put them through qualifications in readiness for the future.

"Members" the British manager of the plant referred to the shopfloor workers as, "our members are important to our future success".

E

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Post #: 27

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 6:05:54 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

In related news....The Yugo died this week!

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212187921.shtml

I heard FIAT were taking them over and building a new small model there (sub-compact?), the sort of car FIAT do best.

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Post #: 28

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 6:08:41 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

The big 3 are crying about going into chapter 11. Thats total BS. Look how Kia came out of it. From producing a junk car to producing a very good one.

As far as producing bubble cars. What if you have several kids.

MzMia if you have that man y miles on your car trade it in now or it will be useless for a trade in. They will tell you to try to sell it yourself.

housesub the Japan car companies are also in trouble now.

Most car companies are rationalizing because of the steep decline in demand due to the economic crisis but Japanese companies seem to be one of the few that aren't reducing production here, maybe that is because many of the cars they produce are small models.

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Post #: 29

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 6:41:39 AM

thishereboi

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Maybe Ford will send it's employees on another cruise....and the top execs need more money, I am sure a lot will go to them.

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Post #: 30

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 6:58:12 AM

corysub

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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Congress will give them the money. However, Congress is living in some sort of parallel universe that is not reality. We are on our way towards a Global meltdown that Central Banks around the world are trying to prevent. Yet, our dysfunction U.S. Congressional leadership continues to put environmental strings around every deal. The U.S. auto companies are competitive around the world and the buick is the leading auto sold in China...but they are not hamstrung by radical carbon caps, Washington lawyers designing cars for mileage...and on and on. All through the system the environementalists black hand like the mafia is impacting our lives...from 17 different grades of gasoline in some states, to mandated mileage, more concerns about animals than humans, no grassroots refinery or nuclear plant built during the lifetimes of many people posting here. You can throw all the money in the world into the auto industry, but as long as Pelosi and Reid dictate auto design you might as well buy gold and turn off the TV. You don't want to hear whats coming..

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 31

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 1:07:25 PM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
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Like that will happen. I know much was made of the fact that these company leaders took private jets to Washington to ask for a handout. To go one step further, I have to not only question their fiscal responsibility, but also their common sense when it comes to PR. Maybe they weren't paying attention when the story of AIG execs spending 500k for a hunting trip was splashed all over the front pages. Maybe they didn't think it had anything to do with them? How could they use such bad judgement? If their judgment is that poor, do we have confidence in the plan they will devise in the next two weeks? I don't.

(in reply to SilverMark)

Post #: 32

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 2:31:36 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

We are on our way towards a Global meltdown that Central Banks around the world are trying to prevent.

If this is so, then isn't this the time to let the Auto Industry finally collapse, so the debris can be cleared and the industry rebuilt on solid foundations as the world's economies recover?

If everyone is tanking, then no-one will be in a position to drastically exploit the vacuum created by the bankruptcies of the Big Three carmakers here in the US.

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Post #: 33

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 2:37:35 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Congress will give them the money. However, Congress is living in some sort of parallel universe that is not reality. We are on our way towards a Global meltdown that Central Banks around the world are trying to prevent. Yet, our dysfunction U.S. Congressional leadership continues to put environmental strings around every deal. The U.S. auto companies are competitive around the world and the buick is the leading auto sold in China...but they are not hamstrung by radical carbon caps, Washington lawyers designing cars for mileage...and on and on. All through the system the environementalists black hand like the mafia is impacting our lives...from 17 different grades of gasoline in some states, to mandated mileage, more concerns about animals than humans, no grassroots refinery or nuclear plant built during the lifetimes of many people posting here. You can throw all the money in the world into the auto industry, but as long as Pelosi and Reid dictate auto design you might as well buy gold and turn off the TV. You don't want to hear whats coming..

I want to hear what's coming!
Please, please tell me!
Is it a Depression?

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 34

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 3:20:42 PM

FullfigRIMAAM1

Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
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quote:

Capitalism itself is not inherently a flawed idea, in the same way the concept of a union is not inherently a flawed idea.

Capitalism is simply a means of investing to generate a return. It is the decision of the owners as to whether they believe the best way to earn a return is to look after their employees, or "screw the holy hell" out of them.

You are of course right in that there is nothing inherently wrong with an idea, until humans get involved in executing them.   Among the reasons I believe capitalism needs massive regulation and a counterbalancing ability to unionize is, because there is no limit to avarice and a desire to live extravagantly among some folks, as that is the only way they feel powerful.

Many free market capitalists collude to make as much of a return as possible, but at what cost to the population?   The electricity and gas companies in my area merged, which tecnically should have brought prices down...    Countless people are going to freeze to death this winter because the people who own the companies that provide basic utilities like natural gas, and electricity, can cut off their supply if they are unable to afford the astronomical costs.   How can this be okay in the name of profit over natural resources that really don't belong to anyone?
Among the reasons I think the auto industry should be bailed out is because I really don't think this country can take the loss of job and confidence their bankrupcies would cause. If people think welfare is bad now, just keep increasing the jobless numbers.   M

< Message edited by FullfigRIMAAM1 -- 11/21/2008 3:21:04 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 3:24:05 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

quote:

Capitalism itself is not inherently a flawed idea, in the same way the concept of a union is not inherently a flawed idea.

Capitalism is simply a means of investing to generate a return. It is the decision of the owners as to whether they believe the best way to earn a return is to look after their employees, or "screw the holy hell" out of them.
You are of course right in that there is nothing inherently wrong with an idea, until humans get involved in executing them.   Among the reasons I believe capitalism needs massive regulation and a counterbalancing ability to unionize is, because there is no limit to avarice and a desire to live extravagantly among some folks, as that is the only way they feel powerful.

Many free market capitalists collude to make as much of a return as possible, but at what cost to the population?   The electricity and gas companies in my area merged, which tecnically should have brought prices down...    Countless people are going to freeze to death this winter because the people who own the companies that provide basic utilities like natural gas, and electricity, can cut off their supply if they are unable to afford the astronomical costs.   How can this be okay in the name of profit over natural resources that really don't belong to anyone?
Among the reasons I think the auto industry should be bailed out is because I really don't think this country can take the loss of job and confidence their bankrupcies would cause. If people think welfare is bad now, just keep increasing the jobless numbers.   M

Great post M, slight name change, humm
If anyone can't see that our country is spiraling downhill at this point,
they must be deaf, dumb and blind.
I have no idea what the answers are, but there are going to be some
major changes coming our way, and major changes in how many of us
live.
The term "The end of an era", springs to my mind.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/21/2008 3:35:16 PM >

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

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Post #: 36

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 4:01:52 PM

MmeGigs

Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
Any thoughs on "the plan" they need to devise?
I am thinking smaller, well made fuel efficient cars.
Electric if possible and not too expensive.

If we want electric cars, I'd rather see us invest in the companies that are already making them. There's a thread on them just started. I'd like to see Detroit concentrate on fuel efficiency and bringing their way of doing business into the current century.

While the tabloid-like coverage of the Big 3 CEO's flying into DC on separate private jets was a bit over the top, when you put it together with the fact that they didn't put much effort into coming up with reasons that we should give them the money and with their reactions when a congresscritter asked them what they thought about their own salaries, it's pretty darned clear that these guys really don't have a clue what's going on. I think that congress ought to ask them to appoint new leadership, preferably from other industries that had to wrestle with tough times.

quote:

I also see the wages being cut.

Whose?

The salaried workers have already taken cuts in wages, jobs and benefits. The non-union retirees have lost their insurance-for-life and are signing up for Medicare. The unions made a lot of concessions last fall, at least where new hires are concerned. Some of the associated trades took huge cuts in wages and benefits. These changes were all made after that $73 figure was calculated. One of the Big 3 - I think it was Ford - said that the changes they got in the fall 2007 contracts would save them $1 billion. The old-hires need to make some more concessions. Trading in their retirement health care plan for one that would coordinate with Medicare would save the automakers $8-$10/hr of that $73 figure we keep hearing about. Cutting down the number of paid holidays from 17 to 12 would bring it down by another $1.50. Those two things are another billion.

There's surely more fluff in there that can be cut, but I think it's important to remember that these wages support other businesses where these folks live. Drastic cuts in wages may help the bottom line for the Big 3 but will have a negative effect on the economy in the communities where these workers live. We don't want to create more problems than we're solving.

< Message edited by MmeGigs -- 11/21/2008 4:05:45 PM >

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 37

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 4:07:25 PM

toledotpeslave

Posts: 32
Joined: 11/10/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

I am beginning to believe that Chapter 11 may very well be the answer to the Big 3. The inherent costs as they are, will not change with a loan from the Government. I agree that no, we shouldn't let another 3 million people lose their jobs but, under a reorganization they wouldn't have to do so. However it would force everyone to look at the situation and dire consequences as they are and make the decisions that need to be made. I am told<but, not sure> that under Chapter 11 the unions could be forced to re-negotiate their contracts? It would not be unheard of for the restructure of all the salaries and costs involved under re-structure and force a workable plan to be found.

This is exactly what should happen.

Also, wo need to keep in mind, there really is no "Chrysler". All they make are trucks, SUVs, and minivans. The market for all 3 of those have collapsed. The only car platforms they had in the pipeline were rebadged Nissans or Chinese junk (which have fallen through). Unless gas stays cheap, which it won't for long, there really is nothing at Chrysler worth saving, except for the Jeep name. That's it. That is why GM tried to kill Chrysler. They figured a car market with only GM and Ford could survive, but not all three. Detroit should beg for that deal at this point.

(in reply to SilverMark)

Post #: 38

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 4:10:06 PM

toledotpeslave

Posts: 32
Joined: 11/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I would like to see a manufacturer concentrating some useful effort into personal transportation, or a situation where there are only two people that need a vehicle. No, not a bloody great big tank with a monstrous engine, but a light weight tandem seating car, perhaps a three wheeler with a light weight structure and a small air cooled engine. Something like the old bubble cars, a cross between a motorcycle and a car.

Air cooled engines are dead. They won't pass the EPA unless they are made to run really lean.

Take Harleys for example. The factory tune is junk...it's not even good for the engine. That is the only way to get them out the door. They do it because they know most will modify them anyways.

Porsche can't even work air cooled engines anymore.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 39

RE: Motor City has 2 weeks to devise a plan - 11/21/2008 4:13:28 PM

toledotpeslave

Posts: 32
Joined: 11/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Dnomyar - there was a feature on Toyota in the UK on the news this morning.

Whilst BMW closes down two UK factories in early December for five weeks (which is a royal pain the neck for me), and automotive manufacturers here generally are laying off people all over the place, Toyota have not laid one person off and theyre not closing down - they have restructured their shifts to reflect demand and are retaining their people, using the gap to train them and put them through qualifications in readiness for the future.

"Members" the British manager of the plant referred to the shopfloor workers as, "our members are important to our future success".

E

Toyota execs would rather commit suicide than layoff workers.

IIRC they did it once in the late 50s, early 60s, and it is still a source of great shame.

I doubt Wagoner, Mulally, and Nardelli will be shoving a sword into their midsections anytime soon.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 40

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