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RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/16/2008 3:08:10 AM   
JustStephen


Posts: 61
Joined: 4/15/2008
Status: offline 		If I put my submissive on eye and or speach restrictions I dont expect  to be following her tail every moment making sure she is complying to my instructions  provinding i am close at hand and able to protect her, thats enough. In this particular case the club in question was being promoted by Allthatjaz who continually had to make sure things were running smoothly as well as chat and socialise with customers (most of whom she knows).

Are you saying that the D should be 100% attentive to their sub in these circumstances? It is in fact a good test of a subs obedience.

I often put restrictions on my sub, this enables me to continue socialising  because in essence if I am over attentive I will be on the same restrictions i have put her on.

Stephen.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/16/2008 8:12:45 AM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

CD, that's what I was referring to, that it is the dominant's responsibility to inform others of the restrictions. If you look up to post 3, the dominant clearly states that she was busy chatting with her friends and not informing others of the restrictions. In other words she deliberately put them in a position where they couldn't do the right thing.


It doesn't matter though, IMO. If you walk up to an s type person "that is your friend" and they will not look at you or speak to you... do you continue to badger them until they do? Or do you stop and say "hey, maybe they are not talking or looking at me for a reason.." and go and seek out their D "if you know them that well", and just ask. That would be proper protocol.

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/16/2008 11:05:37 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		This is usually why putting a sign around their neck really is a good way to handle it, I've seen (and used it myself) it done and it seems to take all the guesswork and social awkwardness out of the equation.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/16/2008 4:03:37 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen

If I put my submissive on eye and or speach restrictions I dont expect  to be following her tail every moment making sure she is complying to my instructions  provinding i am close at hand and able to protect her, thats enough. In this particular case the club in question was being promoted by Allthatjaz who continually had to make sure things were running smoothly as well as chat and socialise with customers (most of whom she knows).

Are you saying that the D should be 100% attentive to their sub in these circumstances? It is in fact a good test of a subs obedience.

I often put restrictions on my sub, this enables me to continue socialising  because in essence if I am over attentive I will be on the same restrictions i have put her on.

Stephen.


I don't know how many times I've said that putting her on restrictions without telling all her friends who are also there is putting her between a rock and a hard place. Either she obeys you, and is unacceptably rude to her friends or she is polite to her friends and rude to you. That's a lose/lose scenario and thus not acceptable.

If you do this, then the onus is on you to inform others so she doesn't get a bad reputation as a rude person, so she doesn't lose her friends. If you don't want to bother telling everyone, then just leave her home. A good dominant doesn't try to destroy a sub's friendships and support system to flatter his own ego. Punishment for whatever wrong could easily be accomplished without her being put in an untenable position.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to JustStephen)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/16/2008 5:49:52 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I don't know how many times I've said that putting her on restrictions without telling all her friends who are also there is putting her between a rock and a hard place. Either she obeys you, and is unacceptably rude to her friends or she is polite to her friends and rude to you. That's a lose/lose scenario and thus not acceptable.


Maybe unacceptable for you, but the people that I would call friends at that type of event would understand that any behavior they find unusual for me is a result of my obedience to him.  They would understand that my relationship with him came first and would not consider me rude.  For the most part, we are on very strict protocol at these types of events and people there are completely comfortable and accepting of our behavior.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 5:47:08 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

Funny, this thread seems to address speech and eye contact restrictions mostly as punishment.When my Dom tells me to look down or away or to be quiet, they're all very much a turn-on as demonstrations of power. 


It hasn't happened often, but when a D has used eye and speech restrictions, even for short term, it indicates to me that he is aware of and accepts the sort of person I am.  (Thinking about it, that was probably wishful thinking, but thats how I interpreted it at the time.)  I prefer not to make eye contact and like the feeling of having to discipline my speech because it makes me more thoughtful and calms me down.  I also tend to go into a zone and I like that zone.  Its a bit dissociative, but, ya know, its still cool for me.  And, certainly not punishment.  I think such restrictions could be used effectively to de-escalate situations.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to lilmissdefiant)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 6:58:14 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen

If I put my submissive on eye and or speach restrictions I dont expect  to be following her tail every moment making sure she is complying to my instructions  provinding i am close at hand and able to protect her, thats enough. In this particular case the club in question was being promoted by Allthatjaz who continually had to make sure things were running smoothly as well as chat and socialise with customers (most of whom she knows).

Are you saying that the D should be 100% attentive to their sub in these circumstances? It is in fact a good test of a subs obedience.

I often put restrictions on my sub, this enables me to continue socialising  because in essence if I am over attentive I will be on the same restrictions i have put her on.

Stephen.


I don't know how many times I've said that putting her on restrictions without telling all her friends who are also there is putting her between a rock and a hard place. Either she obeys you, and is unacceptably rude to her friends or she is polite to her friends and rude to you. That's a lose/lose scenario and thus not acceptable.

If you do this, then the onus is on you to inform others so she doesn't get a bad reputation as a rude person, so she doesn't lose her friends. If you don't want to bother telling everyone, then just leave her home. A good dominant doesn't try to destroy a sub's friendships and support system to flatter his own ego. Punishment for whatever wrong could easily be accomplished without her being put in an untenable position.


This was in a club of more than 500 people so telling everyone would of been a bit difficult. Yes I could of used a sign round the neck but then why bother?  This was a BDSM club where people quickly latch on to scenarios such as this. In the vanilla world it would be considered rude but actually it went down rather well.
I have come across other submissives on this sort of deprivation in clubs on many occassions. I very quickly see what is going on and the dominant, who I will then approach and speak to is normally very close by.

This was a personal experience for me and my subs. It worked well at the time and I got no grief from it. The only place I have had any grief from it is on this site and thats because I was willing to share the experience. I will know better next time!

One of the things that is often lacking within the BDSM community, especially at fet/BDSM clubs is DS play but surely DS public play is best done in a BDSM club and not a vanilla one.

I celebrate being able to go out to BDSM clubs and experience those things that I couldn't possibly experience in other public places. I love being amongst a community of people that give you a wink and a smile and don't give you a hundred reasons for why you shouldn't be doing this.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 7:30:10 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

This was a personal experience for me and my subs. It worked well at the time and I got no grief from it.


It wasn't personal, it was in front of 500 people at the door of the club.

quote:

  The only place I have had any grief from it is on this site and thats because I was willing to share the experience. I will know better next time!


Horseshit.  Lots of people post experiences vastly more personal here all the time, sometimes things that don't sound like bragging and actually show our mistakes on purpose.  There are always a few who want to say negative things but by far the largest response to posts that are actually genuine and personal are positive. 

I actually agree that we see too little D/s at events but part of that is because D/s is mental.  It isn't always easy to tell if some one's overt act is genuine or an all too likely attempt to grab attention.  It is the equivalent of those who use single tails or floggers and are paying more attention to their performance and the audience than they are to the reactions of their target.

Frankly, while I love the concept of eye and speech restrictions, I have to side with those who have been negative in their assessment of how you handled it.  Now if it was all fun and games, then that would be well, all fun and games.  "aha I caught you bad nasty little girl" is a very different dynamic than "you have disappointed me and I need to teach you a lesson. 

Setting someone up to fail, IF that is clearly a game, can be hot.  Setting someone up to fail so you can tear them down isn't.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 11/17/2008 7:32:01 AM >

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 7:54:44 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

This was a personal experience for me and my subs. It worked well at the time and I got no grief from it.


It wasn't personal, it was in front of 500 people at the door of the club.

quote:

  The only place I have had any grief from it is on this site and thats because I was willing to share the experience. I will know better next time!


Horseshit.  Lots of people post experiences vastly more personal here all the time, sometimes things that don't sound like bragging and actually show our mistakes on purpose.  There are always a few who want to say negative things but by far the largest response to posts that are actually genuine and personal are positive. 

I actually agree that we see too little D/s at events but part of that is because D/s is mental.  It isn't always easy to tell if some one's overt act is genuine or an all too likely attempt to grab attention.  It is the equivalent of those who use single tails or floggers and are paying more attention to their performance and the audience than they are to the reactions of their target.

Frankly, while I love the concept of eye and speech restrictions, I have to side with those who have been negative in their assessment of how you handled it.  Now if it was all fun and games, then that would be well, all fun and games.  "aha I caught you bad nasty little girl" is a very different dynamic than "you have disappointed me and I need to teach you a lesson. 

Setting someone up to fail, IF that is clearly a game, can be hot.  Setting someone up to fail so you can tear them down isn't.


And this is where we differ. I love fun. If its not fun then I simply don't do it. I don't do the serious facial expressions, I just can't but I can and am capable of having a great time and yes I put my hand up and say that I can, as you call it, show off. All exhibitionists want voyeurs because without them we can't do the (showing off can we? ) The reason that many people play in clubs is because they want others to see.

I think what your calling  showing off is the  same thing that I call exhibitionism but what I call it is an accepted and positive term amongst us.
I don't like being amongst people when I am out that are overly serious. I don't hold it against them if that is what gets them off but I just stick to the one rule.... have fun and lots of it.
Perhaps that makes others believe I am not real... perhaps I don't actually worry about being real or not.


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 10:18:05 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline 		I've only ever used eye or speech restrictions as a brief, in the moment, kind of instruction with partners who I knew would respond to it very well - I don't know why exactly; maybe because they were just naturally introspective or something, and the instruction caused them to become very inwardly focused for a moment, and yet also be anticipating whatever unknown something that might come next. Perhaps like a mini sensory deprivation experience without having to use a blindfold or gag.

I'm guessing that you are probably asking about longer-term restrictions.
Those, I don't have experience with as yet.
Currently I don't think about them very much in terms of something that I'd desire, but I might like to play around and experiment with them one day, if it feels right to me.


(in reply to lilmissdefiant)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 2:04:51 PM   
Hisunfoldinglily


Posts: 55
Joined: 1/30/2008
Status: offline 		Master usually does this as a punishment for me. Which He knows is a very good punishment for me as it kills me not to be able to look at Him. The other times that i do not speak or look at Him is when He is placing my leather collar, restraints, and leash on my. my face is tilted up. But my eyes are downcast.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 2:21:15 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I don't know how many times I've said that putting her on restrictions without telling all her friends who are also there is putting her between a rock and a hard place. Either she obeys you, and is unacceptably rude to her friends or she is polite to her friends and rude to you. That's a lose/lose scenario and thus not acceptable.

If you do this, then the onus is on you to inform others so she doesn't get a bad reputation as a rude person, so she doesn't lose her friends. If you don't want to bother telling everyone, then just leave her home. A good dominant doesn't try to destroy a sub's friendships and support system to flatter his own ego. Punishment for whatever wrong could easily be accomplished without her being put in an untenable position.


You know what... if it's my servant, and the parameters of our relationship have been set, the only onus on me is to give the command to my servant and make sure xhe's safe. I don't owe -anything- to hir friends, and if hir friends know hir well enough to claim friendship, they'll know the type of relationship xhe has. If these are real friends, and they're familiar with hir lifestyle (which they would most likely be), if xhe didn't speak to them, they wouldn't be all worried that xhe was insulting them -- it would probably take nothing more than a simple shake of the head, eyes lowered, for them to 'get it', and if they were worried or upset, they'd come talk to me, my Darling, or whichever of the other keepers brought the servant out in public. If they were rude enough to keep pestering hir, and started trying to make hir feel guilty or upset about her obedience, I'd probably step in and tell them to get their asses off and do something besides mess with my servant, and then I'd have a long talk with my servant about the quality of friends xhe was keeping (and yes, this does include vanilla friends -- my first experience with verbal restrictions was 30 days of silence imposed by the monastary I was training in... and the 2nd was during a "Greek" rush, so it isn't like this stuff is ONLY found in D/s relationships).

If the people xhe's interacting with are strangers, than neither I nor my servant are going to give a crap what the strangers think... most often, at least when I was under them as part of my training, people just thought I was "shy" (as if!)

In 10 years, the only people I've had problems with about verbal/eye-contact restrictions were people who didn't -like- those kinds of restrictions and used the fact that we include those as a reason to badger our servants into feeling bad about their service and our commands, and to me, -that- is inexcusably rude.


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 4:56:15 PM   
auburnvixen


Posts: 92
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Though most of this thread seems to be about eye contact and speech restrictions in public - as I recently posted in another thread, I have been placed under these restrictions in private play with a particular Master, with wonderful results. It's a real challenge for me to be totally nonverbal during an intense session of several hours' duration, but it adds so much to our connection because I have to communicate to him only the essentials with hand signals (yes, no, have to pee, need a drink of water) and he is completely focused on what my body is telling him. (Thankfully I am allowed to make sounds of pain and pleasure - I am just prohibited from forming words.)

The eye contact restrictions are especially difficult as I long to look at him, but am not permitted to open my eyes if I am not blindfolded. When I was finally granted that reward not long ago, looking into his eyes at last was one of the most intense experiences I've had. I'm sure it will be a long time until that opportunity arises again.

_____________________________

"Submissive Alpha Female"
If you're not taking flak, you're not over the target.
'Change' is not a destination, just as 'hope' is not a strategy. - Rudy Giuliani

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 5:36:31 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Alandra and I are under speech restrictions all the time and restriction does not necessarily mean that we cannot speak at all.  Most of it is in regards to how we are to speak and interact with him.  For example we cannot express our opinion, give information or ask questions without his express permission.  There are others that apply to everyone we speak to; an example is saying 'my pleasure' instead of 'you are welcome'.

To enforce them, all he has to do is remind us or point out that we are not following proper protocol.

For the most part, no one notices the restrictions that we have in regards to our speech.  If they do notice it, they just think that it is part of how we interact.  The other day at work, Alandra dropped me off a drink and I thanked her.  She said 'my pleasure' and left.  A co-worker remarked, "cool, you both say 'my pleasure".

Knight's Kyra





_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to lilmissdefiant)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 6:58:35 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I think perhaps we can parallel this to third person speech- some people do it in such a way to be a neon sign of "LOOK HOW SUBLY I AM, ISN'T THAT SO COOL?!?!?!?!" and some people do it so gracefully and unobtrusively that you don't notice until you think to look for it.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Eye and Speech Restrictions - 11/17/2008 7:43:52 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
and some people do it so gracefully and unobtrusively that you don't notice until you think to look for it.


this is one of the primary goals I have with regards to my girls protocals within a public environment.  I want them to slip under the radar with many of the behaviors that I require of them.    Most times they do very well at it..

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 56
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