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Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 12:29:25 AM

NorthernGent

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Are they successful? Are they failures?

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 12:43:10 AM

colouredin

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successful in what way?

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 12:43:47 AM

NorthernGent

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In terms of your definition of success.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 12:54:12 AM

colouredin

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To be honest it totally depends on your definition of the words, and how theoretical you want to get. I simply see it as another form of labelling which we feel we need. You apply value judgements about a person depending on which way they sway. Mind you it can be useful for essays to have the words, generally though they are rather flimsy as terms because they mean something differant to differant people, what I see as conservative another may see as liberal.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 12:58:25 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

what I see as conservative another may see as liberal.

This doesn't mean Conservatism and Liberalisam aren't rooted in defined objectives.

For example, both political philosophies are rooted in the religious and civil strife of 16th and 17th century Europe; both aim to preserve order and safeguard property.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 1:01:44 AM

colouredin

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It depends what you mean by the words though NG as i impled your post was very vague.

Lets talk politics, in modern britain Labour is meant to be liberal the Lib Dems are meant to be in the middle and the Conservatives are meant to be well conservative, thats not really how it works though is it.

Yes there are defined objectives but there are varying degrees of it all, its kinda like a sliding scale and when you get to the radicals then the differance between the two seem to totally blur

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 1:06:03 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

It depends what you mean by the words though NG as i impled your post was very vague.

The OP was deliberately left open for you to define the objectives and success/failure of the two philsophies as you see fit.

Forget political parties and think of the philosphies' origins and objectives; what do they aim to achieve? based on what you see around you, have these objectives been met?

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 1:16:06 AM

MadAxeman

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IMO conservatism has failed and liberalism needs to curve.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 1:24:20 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

IMO conservatism has failed and liberalism needs to curve.

Come on then.....why?

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 1:35:32 AM

ScooterTrash

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Liberals are generally open to change while conservatives tend to want to stick with keeping things as they are. As to whether one is better or more successful than the other, I think it would depend on where and when the question is applied. If things suck, liberals would likely make the best score, if things are just fine, then the conservatives would get the nod. IMHO, in the current world climate, I would suspect liberals would be the most popular choice, but it may depend on one's interpretation of how things are going...hmmmm.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 3:02:34 AM

Politesub53

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Both parties trace back to the Whigs, made up of Aristocrats who wanted to take power away from Royalty and give it to parliament. So in that respect, the goal was partly achieved. I say partly, as the first reform act opened the way for the middle classes to vote, taking votes away from the Aristocrats, and more into the hands of the people. The second reform act did much the same for the working class, or at least for Tradesmen and Artisans.

The current Tory party obviously needs the middle class masses to vote for them, yet so many policies dont actually help the man in the street. Thatcher came close, with the right to buy, yet she alienated many by doing that, along with selling off national assets, and reforming union laws too far in one direction.

The Liberals, or should i say the Lib Dems, failed to make the biggest breakthrough in my opinion, as many voters wanted a more centralist party. They had a great chance to push for change under the gang of four, but it just didnt happen. I think the problrm the Liberals have now, is they are seen as more of a "green" party and no longer a major player. The downfall began with the Lloyd George cash for honours scandal, i really dont think they have recovered.

The Labour party has seemed to swing away from its original ideals, and to me, seems more to be interested in staying in power, than actual change. I wonder how Kier Hardie would view all the power suppliers being in Foreign ownership ? My wish is for Labour to become truly socialist, working on behalf of both rich and poor. I know it wont happen but its a nice ideal. I am actually ashamed that the Labour party still deny membership to the people of Northern Ireland. What happened to being the party for the people ?

No party has been in constant power, so we have an ebb and flow in British politics, each party tinkering with public policy, sometimes just for tinkerings sake. Things have vastly improved for the poor, especially since the last century Read Jack londons "People of the Abyss" for a view of how the poor were forced to live 100 years ago, and you will see that things are far better, even if not perfect. Pick any government from the past and you will find good and bad legislation, much of which was formed within the constraints of the era. So it is hard to be overly critical now. Even Thatchers trade union laws, which i despise with a vengance, can be understood by looking at the strife of the 70s.

Sorry if this seems over long.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 4:03:36 AM

MadAxeman

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It's not overlong. But I was avoiding specific detail so non UK readers could apply the concepts and themes to theirselves. Thatcher also announced that 'there is no such thing as society' which is disturbing as it seemed to identify a goal rather than be a glib observation. Don't forget the poll tax riots, privatisation of the railways and increased police powers.
I agree that the Labour party have been a disappointment, especially in the way so many of us thought we had freed ourselves from self serving villains as personified by the excesses at the end of the tory troughfest. The first day New Labour were in power they addressed the 'problem' of single mothers. WTF. I didn't vote for that.
Anywho, to return to concepts and attitudes. Conservatives hold some strange ideas dear to their hearts such as 'Victorian Values', Nimbyism, parochialism, xenophobia and capital punishment, which has proved so successful in the States.
Liberalism I would call an attitude, rather than attach it to the Lib Dem party who have made some move to the left in recent years and appear to be looking for anything that makes them different from the 2 main parties. Perhaps cynically, one mught argue that radical thinking is possible when there is no possibility of being elected.
Liberalism or the liberal point of view appears to me at least to be the most flexible and open to new thinking. In short a liberal standpoint allows for adjustment to changes in society, rather than the 'this is how we will do it, now vote for us' rigidity of conservatives.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 4:50:30 AM

caitlyn

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Here in America, liberalism and conservatism has died in place of polarization on issues. Every year that passes, they grow further apart.

Then comes a call to work together ... but that quickly turns into a negotiation where each side takes a position so far on their side, that they can be seen as giving in more, while still getting the best of the exchange.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 6:02:25 AM

pahunkboy

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I moved from a liberal to a conservative venue.

The conservative venue works because of liberals made it possible.

Either way- I want to know I can put a roof over my head. I have a better space here in a small town them in a city. IE- having a room-mate in apartment vs owning a house with lots of rooms, living ALONE.

I love the freedom of living alone.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 6:50:49 AM

MadAxeman

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I have been a little surprised at the tone of the American election build up. Has it always been so dominated by negative thinking and sniping? From here it appears that the winner will be the one who loses it slowest.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 6:51:23 AM

Amaros

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Depends on how seriously you take yourself for the most part. Loosely, conservatism is about regulating private behavior (sex mostly), every man for himself economically - Liberalism is the opposite, regulate economics not behavior.

So, social conservatives will tend towards conservatism for social reasons (perpetual: "collapse of society", decline in moral values, etc.), but liberalism has a better economic track record form a purely empirical standpoint - conservatives tend to find it restricting, maybe because they are so adamant about regulating private behavior and need a release.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 7:06:14 AM

TNstepsout

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Depends on how seriously you take yourself for the most part. Loosely, conservatism is about regulating private behavior (sex mostly), every man for himself economically - Liberalism is the opposite, regulate economics not behavior.

So, social conservatives will tend towards conservatism for social reasons (perpetual: "collapse of society", decline in moral values, etc.), but liberalism has a better economic track record form a purely empirical standpoint - conservatives tend to find it restricting, maybe because they are so adamant about regulating private behavior and need a release.

Interesting observation Amaros, I hadn't thought of it quite that way before, but I agree completely. Another major difference I have noted is that conservatives tend to be much more self-motivated and make policy based on what makes them happy, Dems on the other hand are always trying to make everyone happy. Which is why I don't consider myself part of either party. You can't give it all away and always think of others and try to make everyone happy all the time, nor can you always be selfish and think only of yourself.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 7:31:19 AM

Amaros

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Very true, you can't please everybody - I suppose I would describe my own philosophy as one of ethical self interest.

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RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 8:20:50 AM

Musicmystery