Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Liberalism and Conservatism.....


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 4:32:23 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vegeta

There are no liberals anymore. Those claiming progressive are neo communist.


I'm seeing a pattern develop in your posting style. You do seem to see communism everywhere. Didn't they tell you what happened to the idea  ?

_____________________________



(in reply to vegeta)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 4:40:24 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Maybe McCarthy isn't dead after all....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 4:48:14 PM   
atropa7


Posts: 72
Joined: 10/8/2006
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		I found this video interesting. http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html

It did help me understand why conflicts escalate the way they do, but at the end of the day, I'm not convinced that my priorities are the least effective or wrong ones to have.


_____________________________

Intent doesn't matter to me. Politeness is not a right, it's a privilege that you need to give to get.

Topping from the bottom since 2002! Ignore: I use it early and often for preservation of sanity.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 6:08:38 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		"Conservatisim" has failed. They had their chance, they wanted to reduce government's role in the day to day operation of the US. So far, they've doubled the size of the Federal government, left on American city to drown, gutted the Constitution and Hebeas Corpus, turned the US into a torture state, and are working on emptying the last of the treasury on their way out the door...

"Liberalisim" has been made a shadow of it's former self, but in it's heyday, was responsible of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, established the SSC, gave women the right to vote, worked on (but didn't pass yet) the ERA, worked to eliminate smallpox, polio, and malaria, and pushed for programs to get electricity to rural areas, and established standards for both community drinking water and sanitation. Now they are working on gay rights, and keeping women's rights to their own bodies.


Whereas conservatives have always acted like neanderthals, willing to let America's progress die on the vine in favor of building bigger and bigger weapons (which they promise they will never use) liberals have always been staunchly for the little guy, the middle class.


(in reply to atropa7)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 7:25:26 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: atropa7

I found this video interesting. http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html

It did help me understand why conflicts escalate the way they do, but at the end of the day, I'm not convinced that my priorities are the least effective or wrong ones to have.



That's a good video, I'm going to explore that site, some more. Thanks for pointing it out.

(in reply to atropa7)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/27/2008 7:54:42 PM   
atropa7


Posts: 72
Joined: 10/8/2006
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		TED talks are almost always engrossing. Have fun with the site.

_____________________________

Intent doesn't matter to me. Politeness is not a right, it's a privilege that you need to give to get.

Topping from the bottom since 2002! Ignore: I use it early and often for preservation of sanity.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 8:09:40 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Depends on how seriously you take yourself for the most part. Loosely, conservatism is about regulating private behavior (sex mostly), every man for himself economically - Liberalism is the opposite, regulate economics not behavior.



I have an alternative take on this.

Both aim to achieve harmony, preserve order and safeguard property. Ultimately, they are both the product of an age of chaos and disorder. I'd like to make a point regarding the perceived aversion to change on the part of Conservatism. I think it's fair to say that conservative scholars are fully aware that we evolve in terms of language, knowledge, institutions: even religion. The difference of opinion lies in the best means to manage this change in order to achieve order, stability etc.

In my view, conservatives tend to believe that government is a legal and economic convenience and should play no part in our lives beyond defence and justice; for them, self-regulation is the best means to manage change. Liberalism on the other hand, is rooted in the belief that knowledge and information must be democratic in order to enable people to employ their reason in all security and escape being no more than puppets to the state/sovereign: the implication being that knowledge distribution can only happen through the redistribution of wealth. This policy is not without its faults of course; I'd call it the lesser of two evils.

Ultimately, I think they have both failed in their objectives. Looking at the whole, we're anxious, fearful, war-mongering and defence orientated. We don't really understand the objectives and methods of our leaders and we're easily led by the propaganda of the day - see 'Climate of Fear' for an example. Ultimately, we're not self-regulated; nor are we employing our reason in all security.

Then again, could it be any different? We come complete with flaws; is it possible to create a system without flaws?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 10:32:41 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I always think of things on the very basic level...Liberalism or conservatism are just words that don't describe me or anyone else I'll bet...at least in absolute terms. That politicians describe themselves as a  member of a particular party means nothing to me...Only their actions as they affect me and my ideas of fairness count.

Over the years I have voted for members of both parties and I will do so in the future. I'd be willing to bet that most Americans feel the same way as I.

Butch

(in reply to vegeta)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 10:33:43 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I'm not sure either philosophy is about social harmony. Conservatism comes from the idea that everyone has their place in society and they should know it so if you are dirt poor and live in a pig sty, that is where you belong because it is the natural order of things. Liberalism was about commerce, commerce drives society, people can clamber aboard and they can fall off, it is of no concern to anyone else but yourself where you end up. Neither were concerned about harmonny before socialism raised its head and threatened revolution, then the supporters of both philosophies started to make compromises to sustain their own positions.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 1:31:45 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm not sure either philosophy is about social harmony.



Let's say Machiavelli and Hobbes were some of the prominent and original conservatives in the post-feudal period; let's say Spinoza and Locke were the liberal equivalents. They looked at human motivations and effects, and they aimed to create a best-fit system to preserve order.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Conservatism comes from the idea that everyone has their place in society and they should know it so if you are dirt poor and live in a pig sty, that is where you belong because it is the natural order of things.



The Conservatism espoused by Machiavelli and Hobbes, was underpinned by a pessimistic view of human nature (Machiavelli was influenced by the medieval focus on evil and the torture he endured; Hobbes was influenced by civil strife). They both arrived at the conclusion that war is man's natural state; for them the best means of avoiding perpetual war was submission to a state/sovereign without any right of appeal. I believe both preferred that the sovereign was a monarch, and Machiavelli in particular believed the monarch was well within his rights to lie to the people, or serve up propaganda, if he believed it to be in the public interest. In sum, Conservatism arose as a means of surpressing what conservatives believed to be man's natural state: war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Liberalism was about commerce, commerce drives society, people can clamber aboard and they can fall off, it is of no concern to anyone else but yourself where you end up.



Liberalism was also wrapped up in a best fit for human nature.

Locke believed people came together in society to preserve their property; hence the idea that society should be no more than a system to enable men to chase and preserve their individual business initiatives. In other words, commerce is as natural to you and I as breathing, and the system should support this. Furthermore, this required tolerance, limited monarchy and the right of appeal and rebellion (ideas that underpinned the English/French/American enlightements). Locke's Liberalism was far from an every man for himself philosophy; on the contrary, he believed it was crucial to society's stability.

Spinoza went further than Locke in what was a breathtaking piece of innovation for its day. He believed that a society can only be secure where all information is in the public domain; there could be no special interest groups as far as knowledge was concerned: anything less would allow the sovereign/state to rule by cunning and fear. The man was well ahead of his time and was certainly advocating a solution to the religious and civil disorder of the 16th and 17th centuries, and was most certainly concerned with the people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

socialism raised its head and threatened revolution



'Just another idea driven by the problems of the day.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 3:48:55 PM   
MsRobinSanders


Posts: 30
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Eloquent and suscinct.

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 5:05:33 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber
Whereas conservatives have always acted like neanderthals, willing to let America's progress die on the vine in favor of building bigger and bigger weapons (which they promise they will never use) liberals have always been staunchly for the little guy, the middle class.

As always, you manage to sing the praises of one failure and cast aspersions on the other.  Both philosophies in and of themselves are failures.
Liberalism is no more for the little guy than conservatism.  Its all smoke and mirrors.  In their time working for the "little guy" they have given criminals more rights than victims.  If I hurt a man who is attacking my family, I go to jail and probably lose all I own in a lawsuit.  If I kill him, I lose it all to his family or to lawyers who are keeping me from paying the dirtbag's relatives for my act of defending my family.
Liberalism that is not tempered with conservatism will fail the people.  Conservatism without liberal thought to temper it will fail.  The only philosophy that can stand on its own is that of a true moderate, one that takes a little from each of the others.  Those not truly blind should be able to see that.

(in reply to bipolarber)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 5:09:16 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		It sure seems to me that you folks are over analyzing human nature...and using gobbledy goop to support your views.

The bottom line is people will support those that are like them and or will benefit them...all the rest is crap.

Butch

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 5:40:27 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		Taking it from solely my American point of view, I find that both schools of thought tend to suck in an equal number of ways.

Conservatives suck, because their refusal to embrace social change and determination to keep everything the same stalwarts social growth and enlightenment. The righteous flag of "defending tradition" has been used to mask and hide the large number of injustices they have inflicted on minority groups who fell outside the "traditions" set by the majority.

Liberals suck, because while they have made stunning achievements in bringing a sense of balance to the system, they always have to take it one step too far and insist on attempting to prop people up and support them. They can't live in a world where Bambi dies at the end of the movie so therefore the necessary and inherent capitalist dark side of businesses closing, people losing jobs, people being poor and the weak being eaten by the strong simply cannot be allowed to happen. The end result is flawed socialist programs that get installed to an even more flawed bureaucracy and serve as an open faucet for a waterfall of American tax dollars straight into the abyss.

Conservatives suck, because of the war in Iraq.

Liberals suck, because rather than simply suck up the loss that is the yin to the yang of profit, they rather regulate the economy and stop the free market from being able to function while pumping up taxes in order to support and pay for the poor, negating the personal responsibility and accomplishment that drives our society forward and provides the general higher standard of living that is available here as opposed to other countries with heavily regulated systems.

So that tends to make me a fiscal conservative and social liberal.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 7:16:23 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		~FR~
 
If anybody is keeping score, please chalk up another one in the Irishknight-slash-MadRabbit column.
 
K.
 

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 7:52:51 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Are they successful? Are they failures?



Are we talking political or economic?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 8:25:24 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		As far as my thoughts on conservatism and liberalism are concerned...

I think conservatism doesn't exist in modern day politics, only the "title" of conservatism remains with little baring on the core meaning. .

Conservatives for example, would in theory be for conserving that which is, in a government context that would mean resisting changing interpretations of the role of government. It would mean not redefining terminology when it is convenient(torture). It would mean opposing things that are not specifically delegated authority(bailout). Bush for example is a conservative only in a religious sense, which is a very narrow, segment of conservatism.

So, we essentially, have a situation where no one is resisting changes to core principles, which is very dangerous and results, in redefining torture for example, leads to redefining executive power. No real conservative would ever be for such things, the term has lost its meaning because people that are not conservative in the least use the title, and muddy the definition to meaninglessness.

So, there is no one watching the fort.

Meanwhile, liberalism is doing exactly what liberalism does. It likes to experiment, change, resist, etc..... However, without a proper resistance to such forces, you get badly thought out changes passing, you get constant reinterpretations of what should be basic principles, you get stretching of limits, without much resistance.

This country is rife with "change" to much "change" in the wrong direction. Patriot Act, global war on terror, pre-emptive strikes, redefining torture, expansion of eminent domain, government taking on private risk, seat belt laws, quick 180 degree turns in regards to regulation, nafta, globalism, etc.. I can list more.

Anyway, I'd say 90% of those claiming to be conservative, or more, aren't into conserving anything, it is just a team name, with no coherent philosophy about it. They are into "change" as much as anyone else. As I said the problems to a large extent are a result of lack of  "real" conservatism. Many issues we face now would not have occurred if more "real" conservatives existed.

To put the ideas in picture form, a conservative is a grumpy grandfather. Liberalism is a 20 something grandchild bouncing off the walls wanting to change the world and everything built around grandpas ideas. These two are in business together, they both want to succeed. The Liberal will just gush with ideas, some good some bad. However, in the ideal context the liberal would have to convince the old man in a grueling long process that the old ways are not as good as the new, this is a slow process, but a safe one.
The current situation we have is to young men gushing with ideas, with no restraint. One is named "conservative(title only)" the other "liberal" both are bouncing, reinterpreting, changing, with no grounding or restraint. There is no rule book. All laws are applied in convenience only. We have no standards, no principles.

Now, I'm pretty much a 40% 60% mix of liberalism and conservatism. I'm all for mixing it up in a social context, I'm for trying new things in a corporate sense, I'm for new fresh approaches to old problems. However, I'm 99% against redefining basic fundamental concepts, such as property rights, separation of church and state, separation of government and private interests, wealth redistribution, gun rights,freedom of speech,freedom of the press. These things now have no guardians, or very few. We are ruled by people bouncing off the walls wanting to change, change, change. Well, we got change already, pre-emptive war, torture, officially sanctioned domestic spying, near omnipotent presidential authority.

This country is lost. Truly every year it looks more lost, and unprincipled than the last, that is not an accident. There is virtually no one guarding the core principles. It's the Lord of the flies.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 10:56:44 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Are they successful? Are they failures?



Are we talking political or economic?


As you wish, Julia.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 10:57:57 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

socialism raised its head and threatened revolution



'Just another idea driven by the problems of the day.


If socialism is just another idea born out of problems driven by the day, how do you think conservative and liberal philosophies started?

Since there is no evidence whatsoever that war is man's natural state both the philosophies of Hobbes and Machiavelli are both questionable, particularly Machiavelli, since such are his thoughts in Prince that to follow them would probably lead to war. As with Hobbes, he lived in a time of conflict and so his thoughts, like Hobbes, are born out of the problems of their day like socialism and Marx's philosophical works.

As you point out, Locke believed society to be a system that would preserve private property, so his ideas aren't a million miles away from the liberalism in capitalism and that which Marx condemned as the chains that keep the poor in their place.

Have you been studying philosophy while you've been away?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... - 9/28/2008 11:22:26 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Conservatives suck, because their refusal to embrace social change and determination to keep everything the same stalwarts social growth and enlightenment.



As early as the 16th C, Francisco Saurez offered that as men are born free only the community can sanction authority - surely that is an innovative and enlightened conservative view by anyone's standards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Liberals.........insist on attempting to prop people up and support them.



What? Saurez, Hobbes and Machiavelli weren't advocating a system to support people? Conservatives don't advocate a strong defence, and this defence doesn't support people?

By definition, all political philosophies are rooted in supporting people.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Liberalism and Conservatism..... Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.111