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RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 4:53:47 AM

SlaveIndigochild

Posts: 272
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Just looks like a sugar-coated version of the I'm doing this for real but others are just playing at it routine.

I've highlighted the final paragraph of the article below. This seems to encapsulate my point.

<<Absolute dominants and submissives are the only ones who truly do live D/s as a complete lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with playing at dominance and submission; nothing wrong with being sexually aroused by the fantasy of master/mistress and slave. But it is spectacularly unfair to both those who really are, and those who pretend to be, to place us in the same category.>>

marieToo:
i thank you absolutely for highlighting the above. This saves me, yet again, from thinking that i HAVE to, simply MUST, and SHOULD read a book about 'trueness' to tell me how to live my life.
And, awwwww didums, another Dominant throws a hissy fit and his dummy out of his pram because it's ALL SO UNFAIR!!!

< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 9/14/2008 4:54:45 AM >

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 21

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 5:10:06 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordspet

Specifically one way is not better than the other. It is acknowledging that there is a difference is what is important.

Why?

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 22

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 5:11:24 AM

Aileen1968

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordspet

Specifically one way is not better than the other. It is acknowledging that there is a difference is what is important.

Why?

Because...deep down there is the belief by some that one way is better and that can only be seen if a difference is acknowledged.

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Post #: 23

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 5:13:45 AM

SlaveIndigochild

Posts: 272
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordspet

Specifically one way is not better than the other. It is acknowledging that there is a difference is what is important.

Dear SirLordspet
i don't doubt the integrity of your intentions and/or the integrity of posting about the book. All of and any of the books written about bdsm have a validity evem if it is only the validity of the writer needing to write.
i started being extremely critical of 'factual' books when at university as i went there somewhat older than my peers (by only about 4 years) and was therefore classified a mature student lol. i felt i had to live up to it. However, in my first year (of a Social Science degree) i had been given a bokk to read and the essayed task was to critique its content as a piece of sociological methodology. Well: i read the thing and looked at the few pictures. Low and behold it was a sociological/class analysis of where i had been born and lived as a child. The methodology was what is called participant observation. You may be aware of the method. Basically i KNEW, from at least 20 years of participant observation in that particualr city myself, that anyone who didn't 'blend' in, anyone who didn't speak with the same accent (this was England fairtly post war afterall) wouldn't be able either to participate fully OR observe with the degree of accuracy necessary to form general theories about social deprivation in birmingham. Afterall; one is NOT deprived whilst living off a researches grant and one is NOT participating in the contingencies of a factory workers' lives whilst making sociological observations.
FULL participation in a lifestyle does not enable clear objective analyses generalisable to others. that's just my personal opinon by the way and is as claose as i will ever get to making a valid contriubution.
Master and i as 24/7. We are absolute. We are also playing some of the time. There is no distinction between the two as far as i am concerned. Our 24/7 absolute also means we both work, clean, wash, cater, taxi, play, create, cook, eat and shit just like anyone else on the planet.
And i never ever observe (in the sense of stepping outside) of what it is that we do. i am completely and absolutely fully immersed and therefore if what it is that we do approxomtaes what it is that others do then so be it. e might as a couple be able to share a tantalising discussion of what it is that we do over dinner with others.
Conformity is great. Some ned to conform. And some need to read a book in order to be sure of their conformity and or to validate what it is that they do. Far far far be it from me tpo prescribe what it ok/what is not ok about anyone else.
It's just so tiresome sometimes though to be the skave around here and to come up against a dominant view of yet another who feels they have the right true approach and that they find it unfair to do it any other way. irksome, ok, i find yet another dominant piont of view irksome, tiresome and therefore choose to be mastered by my Master and not to read a book about it. But not UNFAIR surely? If the last paragraph of what was delivered as a thesis had said words to the effect of it being a subjective experience well i might have been more interested in the read. (i like emotions/pain/pleasure/poetry/suffering/personal development/madness exposed but not all of that disguised as fact).
Occupying troops, credit crashes, high winter fuel bills, two thirds of the world's population without running water is unfair?
Just thinking out liud about the difficulties of participating by default in an unfair world and choosing to participate in it as a slave.

< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 9/14/2008 5:14:17 AM >

(in reply to SirLordspet)

Post #: 24

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 6:34:04 AM

TysGalilah

Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
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Hi Pet : )

thanks for your thought-provoking thread

disclaimer > I have not read the book and my comments are made based on what has been remarked on so far in the posts..
and not towards Pet, the OP, but more so towards the author of, and his "two worlds" theory

Does this mean I am floating in space? because I don't reside on either world described.

  The problem with trying to find categories for people and what they do and how they choose to express themselves> is that ( to do it thoroughly ) you would have/need to create so many "holes" (reads categories) in your theory that it ends up weakening the entire intended structure and it collapses.
OR
You have something resembling a block of swiss cheese with lots of little bits and pieces hanging from the edges of the holes where someone attempted to squeeze round pegs into square holes..

   I am pretty darn consistent and completely "total" in my desire to be all Tyson wishes and desires. I am also completely capable and ABLE, thank you very much.
( referring to : "It maintains the right to choose between any one of a myriad of categories and intensities of dominance and submission but with neither the ability nor the desire to pursue them consistently or totally " )
Yet, I call Tyson " Master" but I am not a slave nor his slave. I am his submissive, yet not submissive in personality.
( referring to : relationship resembles one of Owner/pet rather than person/person (Togneri). This type of relationship is often times referred to as M/s or Master/slave. )
I have pets, many, but I am not a pet.
  I AM a person and so is Tyson ...foremost and primarily. We are to each other something that does not resemble what most would try to fit into nice tidy categories. That's ok with us : )

so
floating in space, according to Mr Togneri

fortunately, I know how to float,( ample floatation devices here) and I actually enjoy my bits and pieces hanging over "the edge" at times The edge created by Tyson of course : ) ... and not because someone is trying to squish the crap out of my choices and options..

signed
a round peg

ooo a new screen name is born? "round peggy"

_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to SirLordspet)

Post #: 25

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 7:29:12 AM

SlaveIndigochild

Posts: 272
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Hi 'round peggy' nice to meet you.

i am happy that you are happy being all that you can be for your Master.a
What interests me also, apart from the fallacius methodology assumed by the article, is the use of the term 'absolute'.
'Absolute' interests me, fascinates me, terrifies me, and repels me.
it fascinates me because i long to be the most perfect, the absolute slave for my master if you will. So i simply find it terrible offensive, whether by mail here, or by other on line means, or by implicit reasoning on behalf of the dominant writing thomes like this that he/she is dominant to ALL those submissives who happen to straggle by....

Indigo

< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 9/14/2008 7:34:23 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 7:35:45 AM

TysGalilah

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Joined: 11/21/2007
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"Hi 'round peggy' nice to meet you. "

giggles

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galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

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Post #: 27

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 7:35:47 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordspet

Specifically one way is not better than the other. It is acknowledging that there is a difference is what is important.

Why?

Because...deep down there is the belief by some that one way is better and that can only be seen if a difference is acknowledged.

Well of course there is....unfortunatly for the author if this article. it is MY way, not his.

Geez I just assumed everyone new that.

GoatFeedingDom

(in reply to Aileen1968)

Post #: 28

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 7:37:45 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Just looks like a sugar-coated version of the I'm doing this for real but others are just playing at it routine.

I've highlighted the final paragraph of the article below. This seems to encapsulate my point.

<<Absolute dominants and submissives are the only ones who truly do live D/s as a complete lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with playing at dominance and submission; nothing wrong with being sexually aroused by the fantasy of master/mistress and slave. But it is spectacularly unfair to both those who really are, and those who pretend to be, to place us in the same category.>>

Totally agreed, marie. The part in red above really makes no sense. I don't feel there's anything "unfair" about being placed in the "same category" as someone who "plays at D/s." As long as I'm living my life the way it pleases Master and I, why the hell do I care what someone else does? I certainly don't. Comparing oneself to others and deciding who's "living" it and who's "playing" indicates to me a serious issue...............luci

The only time it has offended me is when someone in the "community" attack me and mine for being in an abusive relationship because they don't grok the concept of someone consenting to be another person's property fully. Those folks would freak if they heard the conversation that Fox and I had on Friday at lunch:

Fox: Mistress, do you require me the evenings of Monday through Wednesday this week? Do you have anything planned?

Me: Let me look. (gets up and looks at family and personal calendar then comes back) Nope. Why?

Fox: My boss would like me to supervise evening shifts those nights to get through some high volume assembly. I told her I'd have to ask you first, Mistress. (he came out to his boss a few years ago and she's cool with our lifestyle cause I'm a smart woman, I don't randomly make him not go to work and I won't randomly make him quit and get another job either)

Me: (thinks for a few minutes then smiles and nods head) That sounds fine with me. Let her know before you go get your hair cut.

Fox: (huge grin) Thank you, Mistress, I will.

That mere conversation, a minor exercise of our authority dynamic as it functions in our everyday lives would freak out some folks. Of course others think we are just so "cute" -- *rolls eyes at that common comment too*.

Frankly unless I am doing something that harms and damages Fox or he comes running to you for help, I don't think it's anyone's business to judge us to try to put us in a neat little category.

However, as a scholar I do appreciate it when folks try to investigate and understand things but I think they can do it a bit more objectively.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 29

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 7:42:13 AM

SlaveIndigochild

Posts: 272
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordspet

Specifically one way is not better than the other. It is acknowledging that there is a difference is what is important.

Why?

Because...deep down there is the belief by some that one way is better and that can only be seen if a difference is acknowledged.

Well of course there is....unfortunatly for the author if this article. it is MY way, not his.

Geez I just assumed everyone new that.

GoatFeedingDom

nah sorry sorry:
it's this guy's way...at least it was when i saw this...a moment in time that creamed me ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIXg9KUiy00

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Formerly Prinsexx
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Post #: 30

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 7:44:50 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Frankly unless I am doing something that harms and damages Fox or he comes running to you for help, I don't think it's anyone's business to judge us to try to put us in a neat little category.

However, as a scholar I do appreciate it when folks try to investigate and understand things but I think they can do it a bit more objectively.

Well said, Tammyjo. I definitely see your point. It is that very lack of objectivity that causes such a discussion to devolve very quickly oftentimes. As so many others have mentioned already, most times the point seems to be not only to distinguish between "really living it" and "playing at it" but to condemn the "players" as not good enough or "hardcore" enough or something. I simply don't care. If everyone does what makes them happy, why do I care how often they do it?.............luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 9/14/2008 7:45:24 AM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 8:01:12 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordspet

i recently read an article entitled, "Absolute Lifestyle D/s" by J. Mikae Togneri. i found the article fascinating as he breaks D/s down into two worlds: Absolute D/s and Mainstream D/s.

Mainstream D/s takes place within the fabric of normal, day-to-day activities. It maintains the right to choose between any one of a myriad of categories and intensities of dominance and submission but with neither the ability nor the desire to pursue them consistently or totally (Togneri).   It contains defined limits and generally occurs within a traditional couple's relationship during mutually agreed upon times with D/s just being one of many components. Whereas, Absolute D/s is not one of many characteristics that defines the relationship, but, it is what the relationship is. In an Absolute D/s relationship, the relationship resembles one of Owner/pet rather than person/person (Togneri). This type of relationship is often times referred to as M/s or Master/slave.

i enjoyed this article for several reasons with the primary reason being that it is the only description i have ever read that distinguishes between BDSM as a lifestyle and BDSM as play and/or as a sexual kink. Since i do live a 24/7 M/s lifestyle, i found this especially informative reading that applies theory based upon experience and facts rather than baseless personal opinion passed off as expert analysis.

Togneri, J. Mikael. "Absolute Lifestyle D/s." Leather and Roses. 2003. 13 Sep 2008 .<http://www.leathernroses.com/mikael/mikaelabsolute.htm>.

Great post. Most will disagree with being put in the mainstream box for a variety of reasons yet that is where they belong based on the defintion and their choices. I live this in it's absolute form. I'm sure i'll win some friends with this but it's how i feel.:> Someone else has stated what i've been trying to get across also.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/14/2008 8:11:48 AM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 8:19:33 AM

suessub

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/18/2008
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Mainstream is only playing while absolute is the only real way.

There is that word absolute again. Whenever it shows up in discussions about relationships, I always worry.

For years, my wife and I where a vanilla couple that played kinky on the weekends. Then a year ago, we started moving our relationship into what is generally considered lifestyle D/s. We stopped playing and started being real.

A couple of weeks ago, after a summer mainly apart, as we were re-connecting, we started to push limits more. And Friday night, it all came together and we found ourselves having an experience like none we had had before. The emotions and feelings of power exchange went to a whole new level. We, together, connected with a completely new level of real. Everything before now seems like playing

During that previous year, were we just playing, though we imagined we had stopped playing and were trying to be real? But more to the point, months or maybe years done the road, when this new place we have found had become the familiar and we push out more, a newer level will be uncovered. And this will appear to be real D/s. And what we have have now will appear as mere playing.

In relationships, vanilla or D/s, there is no absolute, there is only motion. The question should be concern itself with whether a couple (or poly-set) is on an agreed path to continually peel back the layers of an emotional D/s relationship. Or are they seeking to enjoy the exploration of their sexual relationship. Either is most excellent and its existence says nothing of the validity of the other.

_____________________________

"Cause people often talk about being scared of change
But for me I'm more afraid of things staying the same
Cause the game is never won by standing in any one place for too long "
- Nick Cave

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Post #: 33

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 8:45:46 AM

SlaveIndigochild

Posts: 272
Status: offline

[ORIGINAL: suessub]
In relationships, vanilla or D/s, there is no absolute, there is only motion. [/quote]
This is why i like the term process rather than 'scene' and the rather curious 'doing' of that noun as in 'scening'.
'scene' is a rather curious convention, having connotations as it does of being something acted out, and also being something that one is separate from and watching.
i just like the term 'process', because it's definitely a motion, moving, dynamic word and for me it evokes being within the process, being a participant, rather than being an observer.

< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 9/14/2008 8:47:16 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 9:10:30 AM

stardancer00

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/6/2005
Status: offline

i agree that relationships and life and who and what i am are all processes, always in motion. There are no absolutes, but i also understand that there are many variants in this lifestyle, and among them are those whose need is to categorize themselves on a created continuum. Individual relationships are fluid and creative. It is the nature of life, and it allows us the freedom for growth.

(in reply to SlaveIndigochild)

Post #: 35

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 3:14:15 PM

SirLordspet

Posts: 34
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline

To be honest, no i really don't care what others do. That is the beauty of this lifestyle, it is noone's business but our own. However, when seeking out one's Master, i surely did NOT want one who "just play at it behind closed doors" i wanted a Master that i could love, who would love me, and become my Keeper, my Master, AND my kinky lover AND have the patience to take me under His wing and train me to be His completely and totally. So with that, it is important to know where a potential Master or Dom falls within that spectrum. But outside of that, it is noone's business but our own.

< Message edited by SirLordspet -- 9/14/2008 3:15:18 PM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 3:18:25 PM

JewAndCelt

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/23/2008
From: Arkansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordspet

To be honest, no i really don't care what others do. That is the beauty of this lifestyle, it is noone's business but our own. However, when seeking out one's Master, i surely did NOT want one who "just play at it behind closed doors" i wanted a Master that i could love, who would love me, and become my Keeper, my Master, AND my kinky lover AND have the patience to take me under His wing and train me to be His completely and totally. So with that, it is important to know where a potential Master or Dom falls within that spectrum. But outside of that, it is noone's business but our own.

And I can totally see that point. :)

_her

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Post #: 37

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 3:18:40 PM

SirLordspet

Posts: 34
Joined: 6/30/2008
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Well of course we are all entitled to our own opinion. However, if i am seeking a 24/7 Master who will train me to be His live -in slave, i surely do not want to get caught up with someone who is only seeking a part time kink partner. Although there is nothing wrong with which side of the spectrum one falls on, it surely IS important to be on the same page when it comes to pursuing a Master and accepting a collar or on the flip side to be a Master seeking a 24/7 slave and ending up with a bedroom submissive. The difference comes down to a lasting and fulfilling relationship for all involved.

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Post #: 38

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 3:45:17 PM

IvyMorgan

Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
Great post. Most will disagree with being put in the mainstream box for a variety of reasons yet that is where they belong based on the defintion and their choices. I live this in it's absolute form. I'm sure i'll win some friends with this but it's how i feel.:> Someone else has stated what i've been trying to get across also.

Potentially because he created his own definitions in order to lable some people "inferior" to himself, although without doing so in so many words. Different not equal, don't put us all in the same box - it's not fair... and so on.

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 39

RE: Mainstream verse Absolute D/s - 9/14/2008 3:49:55 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

Its leathernroses - like castlerealm only a little less fluffy.
It's ok for beginners, but has no real basis or substance. Actually, I am going to amend that. It has too many absolutes that most seasoned s-types would be able to strip away - for newbies it could be potentially dangerous. Its mills and boon of BDSM relatonships. But fairytales don't always have happy endings.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 9/14/2008 4:09:16 PM >

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Post #: 40

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