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Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 8:34:35 AM

KnightofMists

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminity

In our society... particularly within this given lifestyle... the concepts of Masculinity and Feminity seem to becoming blurred. In days past, Masculinity was an obvious reference to males, while feminity was an obvious reference to females. But, these references are not always accurate in this day and age...... so how do you understand the terms?

Do you seem them as opposites?... Do you see them as representing certain characterisitics and traits?.... why how do you see them?

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 9/13/2008 8:35:02 AM >

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 8:43:28 AM

NihilusZero

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They seem to me to be just a subset of geocultural customs and expectations. I'm not privy enough to have intimate knowledge, but even in the situation of transgenderism, it appears the biological features that are the focus, not the idiosyncratic ways behavior is expressed.

In the end, it should translate simply to the normal stereotypical presumptions of what they both mean. That's all they are and, to that extent, the stereotyping is correct unto itself. They ultimately don't mean much of anything.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/13/2008 8:44:20 AM >

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 8:53:33 AM

KatyLied

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Possibly because I am straight, I see these things in a yin and yang sense. Complementary parts that can make a terrific whole.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 9:10:25 AM

Prinsexx

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This is an interesting question...( i always am interested in what triggers a question,or what leads up to a person opening a thread so i'll ponder on that )....
but i think NihilusZero has a fair point here:~In the end, it should translate simply to the normal stereotypical presumptions of what they both mean~....BECAUSE:
if i had ocassion to use the term in would only ever intentionally be within the context of pointing out the stereotypical aspects of the terms.
But some other considerations:
1. The terms are stereotypically referenced in books,learning materials at school and therefore if as children we manage to escape internalising such polarity within the primary socialisations of our family, then we would get a fair measure of it from the secondarty socialisation processes at school.
2. The polarity of mascualinity and femininity aren't simply reflected in civic, personal, health a nd social care subjects. They are reflected in biology, pcycology and sociology and various other subjects too. They are taken as assumed in historical subjects and there is a masculinised HIStory.
2. language also polarises the world: his book, her coat and so on....unless we attempt to maintain non gender specific langage as in hir/xhe.
3. i am aware of three major axes along which traits cluster themselves. these are; sexual orientation, gender oreintation and power oreintation.
4. i am aware that i have had the easier 'ride' in my life compared to my sister. turned up, in my consciousness and physicality, as a woman, expressing stereotypical feminine traits and am submissive. This has been relative;y pailess compared to my sosters feelings....she feels comfortable exhibiting masculine traits, orientates as a dominant and yet is hetwerosexual.
5. in my world as it is know the polarity is far far less importatnt than it ever has been and i am completely at ease relating to others in a world where the stereotypical termsss have less exerting limitations.
6. i remind myself that masculinity and femininity remains paramount in other less ideologically free cultures and societies.
7. The most powerful tool for appreciation of the beauty of both aspects of the stereotype is the mind. It matters less and less what a person looks like in my experience, as to the mindset they have and the ease with which they are merely themselves. To be at eases in ones own skin is the most powerful tool for a person passing in my opinion.
8. it's a great freedom of our times to be able to 'choose' what traits one exhibits.
Just some thoughts on a great question.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 9:13:02 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Possibly because I am straight, I see these things in a yin and yang sense. Complementary parts that can make a terrific whole.

But we're not talking about gender.

A heterosexual couple could involve and incredibly effeminate man and a very masculine woman.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 9:16:04 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Possibly because I am straight, I see these things in a yin and yang sense. Complementary parts that can make a terrific whole.

But we're not talking about gender.

A heterosexual couple could involve and incredibly effeminate man and a very masculine woman.

The problem is precisely that the terms masculine and feminine ARE tied to gender in the stereotypical approaches.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 9:16:19 AM

NihilusZero

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Now...it obviously is possible to tie in the notions to biology, as estrogen and testosterone are used in transgenderism to curb the body more towards the other pole, but the concepts of masculinity and femininity also have such a deep rooting in basic behavior (type A vs. B personality, for instance) and presumed personality traits that it would seem silly trying to reduce it quite that far.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 9:33:19 AM

catize

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I think there are certain traits that are generally true for each gender but everyone has a bit of both.
An example in my life is shopping. R. ‘shops like a girl’, touches things in the store, picks things up and examines them even if he has no interest in buying. He can spend hours just browsing.
It would be sad, I think, if he did not indulge this small pleasure merely because it is deemed by some to be un-manly.
On the other hand, I shop like a guy---I go in, I find what I went for, I buy it and go home. I often turn down invitations to go to the mall with my female friends.
I would not be true to myself if I pretended to enjoy hours of boredom just to be one of the girls.
If I wear jeans and a t-shirt and drive a forklift at work, I’m not suddenly going to grow a beard and a set of balls. NOR will a man’s cock fall off if he cries at a sad movie.
Are the lines more blurred now than in the past? Not necessarily. I do believe, at least I hope, there are more people who are willing to accept that we all are unique.

< Message edited by catize -- 9/13/2008 9:34:55 AM >

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 9:39:35 AM

KatyLied

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quote:

But we're not talking about gender.

But I am. I like manly men and soft women.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 9:41:45 AM

faerytattoodgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

But we're not talking about gender.

But I am. I like manly men and soft women.

so...you want charlie harper??? (two n half men)

men men men men men men men.......manly men men men....

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 9:44:52 AM

impishlilhellcat

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I've gotten a lot of those please blackmail me, I'll pay you, let me send you tributes kind of thing.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 10:30:00 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Are the lines more blurred now than in the past? Not necessarily. I do believe, at least I hope, there are more people who are willing to accept that we all are unique.

In many ways, people continue to look at these terms from the view point of gender.........or is it we actually attach gender to the words that we want to see them as. Maybe it's a bit of both

Masculinity = Male    and/or   Male = Masculinity
Feminity = Female     and/or   Female = Feminity

However, maybe it's not always about gender... but specific character traits, personality and/or behaviors that we deem as Masculine or Femine. Both genders are going to have these different traits, personalities and/or behaivors.... does it make them less male or female because they have more feminity as compared to masculinity?

touchy feely behaviour... is that being femine? It would seem so from your description.  Are you any less female because you not a touchy feely person when you are shopping?..... I wonder... if this is true in a variety of ways. That we have femine and masculine aspects to who we are. We each look for different aspects in different areas. I happen to enjoy many masculine qualities in a female or male. Masculine qualities that I see as strong, independent, focused, direct. I also happen to enjoy femine quailities as well in either male or female.. such as compassionate, sincere, sensitive.

I am finding that masculinity and feminity are not about opposites... nor are they about genders. Nor do I look at them in Negative perspectives.. but rather postive qualities of the person. It is like looking at the Hard sciences (masculinity) or the soft sciences (feminity). Both have tremendous value.. in the right sitautions but not every situation.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 11:09:56 AM

catize

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quote:

Masculinity = Male and/or Male = Masculinity
Feminity = Female and/or Female = Feminity

This is how I would form the equation:
Man = male gender
Woman = female gender
Masculine/feminine = socially defined characteristics

quote:

However, maybe it's not always about gender... but specific character traits, personality and/or behaviors that we deem as Masculine or Femine. Both genders are going to have these different traits, personalities and/or behaivors.... does it make them less male or female because they have more feminity as compared to masculinity?

Certain behaviors are viewed, again in general terms, as masculine and feminine.
That is exactly what I was trying to convey; I am a woman no matter my behaviors or traits.

quote:

touchy feely behaviour... is that being femine? It would seem so from your description. Are you any less female because you not a touchy feely person when you are shopping?..... I wonder... if this is true in a variety of ways.

I used shopping as an example, but you have garnered a truth here, because I really am not a ‘touchy/feely’ person for the most part. That is something I have had to work on and learn to be comfortable with.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 11:45:39 AM

Lashra

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Everyone has masculine and feminine traits, most are taught to suppress one of them rather than seem "weak" or "unfeminine". I believe this is why we have so many people with issues because we are taught not to be ourselves, but to be what society thinks we should be.

I am a woman with traits from both sides and I do not suppress them, instead I embrace them both so that I can be the best person that I can be, not what society believes that I should be. I can read a map, build a house as easily as I can bake a cake or sew up a shirt. In my view why should people limit themselves so much when there is so much potential out there.

~Lashra

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:00:00 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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i always hear...

1)you cant be a girl because you have a penis...excuse me but what about the female parts inside of me?the pms and the meno?
2)you cant be a girl unless you wear makeup, skirts, dresses and heals 24-7.
3)you cant be a girl if you watch football, hockey, and bet on them.
4)you cant be a girl because you dont sound like one with that voice.
5)you cant be a girl because you dont date men.

im like...really??? funny but i thought what matters comes from inside...and watching sports isnt gender specific, and outward appearance doesnt make gender either.

personality traits are hard to change. you are trained from birth certain things that can never be rid of.

i am always in comfy clothing. i am not going to dress up so that even more men can hit on me when i go outside...that is a problem already in just t's and jeans/shorts...adding to it just makes things worse. i do not want to stand out because i am tired of all the staring as it is.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:05:48 PM

KnightofMists

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faery

Alot of what you said was the prespections of what most in the past have had and to some degree still do. But times seem to be changing and so are the way that we are looking at these particular words. Not everyone is changing but I see a decided shift from the way it use to be

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:07:50 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

I am a woman with traits from both sides and I do not suppress them, instead I embrace them both so that I can be the best person that I can be, not what society believes that I should be. I can read a map, build a house as easily as I can bake a cake or sew up a shirt. In my view why should people limit themselves so much when there is so much potential out there.

mmmmmmm and to me... I think that is what make you hot *G*.... that embracing of both your masculine and femine aspect of self.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:10:38 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

faery

Alot of what you said was the prespections of what most in the past have had and to some degree still do. But times seem to be changing and so are the way that we are looking at these particular words. Not everyone is changing but I see a decided shift from the way it use to be

eventually society will allow you to be yourself...without issues. i atleast live in an area where i can walk around in an safe environment. gender traits will not be a factor.

why? because students in college now have courses they can take where they didnt have these courses available to them on gender and sexuality.

mascunility and femininity will be a thing of the past. for example there is a transsexual pre-op on america's next top model as we speak.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:15:59 PM

KnightofMists

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If you mean society will allow you to be yourself... something like society is no longer tolerant of racism... then I would agree. Racism is not acceptable in society... but yet.. you can't help and bump into in indifferent regions and it is even acceptable behavior in small pockets of society... it's along ways from the 30' and 60' and even the 90's.... I suspect we have a few more generations to go at a minimum

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:17:09 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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quote:

Alot of what you said was the prespections of what most in the past have had and to some degree still do.

actually i only hear these things from 30+ yr old males. youngins (under 25) ..especially females...dont have any problems with me..

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