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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:17:10 PM   
RealSub58


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feminine
masculine
androgenous
gender roles
 
If we accept people for WHO they are, we no longer apply our mindframe to what and why.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:50:24 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
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Status: offline 		What is feminine?  Wel, maybe having a baby..maybe not, if one is tg.  Being alive, identifying as female...then whatever we do, it's 'feminine'.
 
candystripper 

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 12:53:11 PM   
Focus50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

In our society... particularly within this given lifestyle... the concepts of Masculinity and Feminity seem to becoming blurred. In days past, Masculinity was an obvious reference to males, while feminity was an obvious reference to females.  But, these references are not always accurate in this day and age...... so how do you understand the terms?

Do you seem them as opposites?... Do you see them as representing certain characterisitics and traits?.... why how do you see them?

My perceptions of both haven't really changed.  What has changed is society's perception of them, mostly relegating myself to dinosaur status...!  lol
 
RE Masculine;
I think the "dark ages" of the 1990's has a lot to answer for!  Twas the age of emasculation - the "snag" (sensitive new age guy), the time for fellas to shed tears, to "get in touch with their feminine side" for chrissakes. 
 
Television and Hollywood certainly came to the party, as well - and still does.  Seems every other show featured high-heeled, hundred pound babes kicking the living tripe out of 200lb muscle bound male Neanderthals.  Off the top of my head, Buffy, Charmed and Xena come to mind.  While not necessarily the stars of their particular shows, Captain Janeway and (my fav) the immaculately dressed and groomed Miss Parker of "The Pretender" also reinforced this new-age female stereotype with their husky voices.  Then there's Lara Croft and Charlie's Angels blah blah....
 
I've become so accustomed to it myself that last week when I borrowed the recently released (here) DVD of "Untraceable", 10 minutes into the movie when it became obvious the show centred around a female FBI agent, I had no doubt that not only would she be the brains that pieced the mystery together, she'd also be the brawn that kicked the perp's arse.  Lol, cynical or not, it's not even a challenge anymore....
 
Re Feminine;
This is much easier....  Despite the above paragraphs, there's always been women who still appreciate men being *men*.  So real life is much more normal to me.  But the pool of what I consider "feminine" women has definitely shrunk.  I *loathe* women's tattoos and esp body piercings with a passion!  I have neither myself, btw....  And what is it with the young ones who think wandering around shopping malls bare foot is a good look?
 
One of the advantages of being Dom is that I still get to decide what's feminine and what isn't.  While a sub with tattoos has never been a deal breaker (the horrible things ARE "forever", afterall), the girls in my life have all known what's expected of piercings and the simple rule of "ear lobes ONLY"!
 
Focus.   

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 1:32:09 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Masculine and feminine are traits specific to humans.  They are complimentary.  Everyone has them, you can repress them.  You can enhance them.  The past restricted them to gender, society now is more open to being able to express them regardless of gender.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 1:52:33 PM   
thetammyjo


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Status: offline 		I took a personality test back in college that had four possible outcomes: Masculine, Feminine, Androgynous, and Neuter.

I was Androgynous which meant I had both high masculine and high feminine traits just different traits.

These are gender descriptions, differing by cultures and across time, but closely associated with biological sex usually. How well a society deals with the differences between the idealized descriptions I personally think is a sign of how mature and positive a society is.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 2:19:21 PM   
OttersSwim


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Status: offline 		For me, they are behavioral characteristics that have become synonymous with gender - they are a socialized feature of human behavior.

I behave quite as a male in public, but when I came -out- to my friends as being trans it was a surprise to not one of them.  So some part of my socialized behavioral characteristics of masculine vs. feminine clued them in.  I don't think I act particularly feminine, but friends have told me that I think and react like a woman would in a lot of situations they have seen me in.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 2:29:18 PM   
E2Sweet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

...maybe it's not always about gender... but specific character traits, personality and/or behaviors that we deem as Masculine or Femine.  Both genders are going to have these different traits, personalities and/or behaivors.... does it make them less male or female because they have more feminity as compared to masculinity?...


The masculine/feminine behavioral traits are learned over the years as we grow into adulthood (trying to word this carefully for Mod11 approval) and personally, I don't see how these traits dictate how male or female an individual is. Further, I really don't see how male or female in themselves can even be measured. With exception of a very few individuals (intersexed), people are either entirely one sex or the other, based on their role in procreation and their attached genitalia.

quote:

...I am finding that masculinity and femininity are not about opposites... nor are they about genders...


I would agree with these two points entirely.

In my mind, I don't see masculinity and femininity on opposite ends of a spectrum, any more than salt and pepper are opposites of one another. They are just two separate concepts with behavior patterns that basically define each. Some of those very behaviors also happen to overlap between the two concepts. I think the reason we tend to polarize them is because we generally think of these two concepts as the only possibilities in defining human behaviors that relate to gender. Add to that, humans are all about analysis, debate and competition, so whenever you have two ideas that can be somehow pitted against one another, we tend to do just that...

quote:

...Nor do I look at them in Negative perspectives.. but rather positive qualities of the person...


I think its entirely dependent on the situation as to whether or not masculine or feminine qualities are going to end up being a good thing or not so good. You probably don't want what most would consider to be feminine qualities to dominate when handling a burglar breaking into your home in the middle of the night, but yet, you also probably don't want masculine qualities being the dominant when you find a nest of abandoned kittens that require a significant amount of care, nurturing and attention to survive.



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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 3:12:59 PM   
E2Sweet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

...I think the "dark ages" of the 1990's has a lot to answer for!  Twas the age of emasculation - the "snag" (sensitive new age guy), the time for fellas to shed tears, to "get in touch with their feminine side" for chrissakes... 


But on the other side of the coin, that time (and the years that followed) also helped to bring about some social change that is allowing people who are not in the norm to get out into the world and enjoy their lives a little bit more with a little less worry of violent reaction and discrimination from the close-minded... As you can imagine, those issues are a little more of a concern to me personally than girls getting pierced and tattooed...

So, all that being noted, I suppose you could say one individual's "Dark Ages" is perhaps another's "Renaissance"...?

Edited for spelling...


< Message edited by E2Sweet -- 9/13/2008 3:25:53 PM >

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 3:25:31 PM   
DiurnalVampire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Possibly because I am straight, I see these things in a yin and yang sense.  Complementary parts that can make a terrific whole.

But we're not talking about gender.

A heterosexual couple could involve and incredibly effeminate man and a very masculine woman.


And if they did, Katy's yin and yang is still in effect. The masculine and the feminine are still balanced. How often do you see a pairing of a masculine male and a maculie female, or vice versa a very effeminate male and very effeminate female?

I see Masculine and Feminine as the tags for accepted social behaviors. Everyone considers me the man in my relationship and Fox the woman... I am the far more masculine one and he is the more effeminate one. We are very happy that way because we are comfortable not really worrying so much about what sociaty is going to think of how we perceive ourselves and more about how we do so.
DV



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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 3:31:25 PM   
faerytattoodgirl


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Status: offline 		dont forget that the 90's also sprung up lesbian relationships (buffy was one if not the first one to do this and many people hated when they killed off tara) in a more serious manner and also many more trans stories (although most trans were murdered or the murderer or the crazy person ..but never the good person) on shows like cold case, csi, law and order..which is just fucking making things worse for trans and they need to stop this type of crap on tv.



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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 5:33:02 PM   
patina


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

But we're not talking about gender.

A heterosexual couple could involve and incredibly effeminate man and a very masculine woman.



The problem is precisely that the terms masculine and feminine ARE tied to gender in the stereotypical approaches.



I hope i edited the quotes right if not i apologize.

A friend of mine in a PSY class was asked once by a stuck up teacher," What gender are you?" Her smart as_ reply was, "do you mean physically, mentally, emotionally, or psychologically?"  These are all different classifications of how a persons is placed by themselves or by others. 

How many children are born with both genatalia or only partial ones so the parents and dr. decide which sex the child will be classified as.  It may not be what the person feel they are in adult life. 

Even in our corner of the world we need to be in touch with the meanings of the outside world.  We need to match some points of general view.  Not all of us here are gender  confused.   I am a female, born a female, i have no desires sexually to others except males. 

I have gay and lesbian friends, i find nothing wrong with them they find nothing wrong with me.  We each just have our own preference.  One of the lesbian girl knows she is classed as a female but is so masculine in her looks and actions is mistaken for a guy constantly.  We even talked to her about it later in our friendship.   In using her at times as a reference point in some classes she was given the terms of masculine and feminine to help clarify thoughts.  Even though they were not really her.  There was no other way we knew to reference certain character traits.  

Over half of this class  had started at the same time and took almost all the same classes, we became an extended family, so we picked lovingly on each other with no hard feeling.  i was over my cognitive glitches, i made some really weird statemenrs at times. still do.  It was an experience i treasure a lot.

My point in this ramble is we have grown up with these words all of our lives for generations.  There at this time is no other words that are better used to describe our meanings.  It will take generation to change to new wording that everyone would accept.  I do not know if i was able to get my thought put clearly down on this or if it just sounds like a wild ramble. 

patina

   

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 5:35:43 PM   
faerytattoodgirl


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quote:


How many children are born with both genatalia or only partial ones so the parents and dr. decide which sex the child will be classified as. It may not be what the person feel they are in adult life.


about one in 2000  and the # is getting higher.  but in alot of these cases not even the parents know.


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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/13/2008 5:41:31 PM   
fairerthanshe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

mascunility and femininity will be a thing of the past.  for example there is a transsexual pre-op on america's next top model as we speak.



Greetings faery,

Not to totally hijack the thread - but I love Isis!  Isn't she beautiful!  I have never been so devoted to one model at this stage of the competition.

hugs ~ fairer


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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/14/2008 3:28:00 AM   
Focus50


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From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: E2Sweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

...I think the "dark ages" of the 1990's has a lot to answer for!  Twas the age of emasculation - the "snag" (sensitive new age guy), the time for fellas to shed tears, to "get in touch with their feminine side" for chrissakes... 


But on the other side of the coin, that time (and the years that followed) also helped to bring about some social change that is allowing people who are not in the norm to get out into the world and enjoy their lives a little bit more with a little less worry of violent reaction and discrimination from the close-minded... As you can imagine, those issues are a little more of a concern to me personally than girls getting pierced and tattooed...

So, all that being noted, I suppose you could say one individual's "Dark Ages" is perhaps another's "Renaissance"...?

I'd say it was more like one gender's "Dark Ages" vs the other's "Renaissance"....  In many ways, sexual "equality" didn't seem to include men.  The propaganda at the time would have us believe women preferred their men all weepy and emotional with testosterone jokes in mind-numbing perpetuity.  Lol, surely no two men ever had more testosterone than Law & Order SVU's detective Olivia Bensen?
 
And to be a chivalrous gentleman back then was fraught with hazards.  I'll never forget offering my train seat to a heavily pregnant young woman, only to be blasted with "I'm pregnant, NOT bloody crippled!"  Yet on another day and another expectant mother, men in general are blasted across the front page for the death of chivalry and good manners etc because someone, somewhere, didn't offer that seat.  It sucked to be a fella back then, especially those of us who mostly try to do the "right" thing and look after our women - including when they're strangers.
 
Me, I like feminine - I don't like feminist....
 
Focus.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/14/2008 6:04:11 AM   
catize


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Yep, we had to get radical in the beginning to make a point because no one was listening.  To decline a seat offered by a gentleman, to insist we could open our own doors was to overcome the stereotype that women were fragile and helpless creatures.  However, I would remind you that Gloria Steinem herself was quoted as saying “If my arms are full of packages and a man opens the door for me, I’m going to smile and thank him.”
But back to the topic, feminist has no bearing on femininity. 

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/14/2008 6:14:48 AM   
christine1


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Status: offline 		i'm one who greatly appreciates the differences between masculine and feminine.  i love that there are differences....like katy said, they fit together to make a wonderful whole.  i don't want to be like a man, i want to be with one though.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/14/2008 7:12:31 AM   
TysGalilah


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Status: offline 		 I see the woman who schrilled at you for offering her your seat as the one with the problem, not you..
WHY protest so much?  her issues.
 
  ( not to say I am not sincerely indebted to all the women suffragette who risked so much so that I, today, have the right to protest..disagree...choose...etc)
 
I can see a big difference between a man doing something for me because he WANTS to  vs a man doing something for me because he thinks I CAN'T do it myself.
 
I agree with Christine, in that I enjoy the differences of man and woman. 
I like chivalry and dominance in the dominant man I am with.  It enhances/inspires  my submission  but it doesn't make me feel less than or incapable.  But that doesn't mean it makes me want to submit to every man who holds the door open for me.    That just makes me smile and feel appreciative.
 
But honestly, I have been in a relationship where I was the one who felt chivalrous and dominant...wanting to take care of her and protect her.  My desire to be the yang to her ying of femininity.
That did not make me masculine.  That did not make me a man. And that did not take away from my ability to also be softer, subserviant and submissive to/with the dominant man in my life as well.

Which brings me back to the original post on this thread, by KOM.  I don't really have the answer to your question...
I, personally, think it is about  personality and preference  and how we are comfortable in our own skins and our ability to express that openly, disregarding what society wants to "deem" us because of our body parts or sterotypical ideals. 

edited:  it needed a comma  btween   >openly, disregarding
or it reads incorrectly to my thinkin...

< Message edited by TysGalilah -- 9/14/2008 7:43:55 AM >

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/14/2008 4:58:55 PM   
E2Sweet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

...I'll never forget offering my train seat to a heavily pregnant young woman, only to be blasted with "I'm pregnant, NOT bloody crippled!"  Yet on another day and another expectant mother, men in general are blasted across the front page for the death of chivalry and good manners etc because someone, somewhere, didn't offer that seat....


I'll have to agree that particular woman's reaction on the train as you describe it was a pretty crappy one to say the least. That's a prefect example of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

What can you really do except just walk away from that situation knowing you tried to do a good and decent thing...?


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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/14/2008 6:40:03 PM   
MadRabbit


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I'm actually agreeing with Focus.

This can't be fucking happening. It has to be a dream.

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RE: Masculinity and Feminity - 9/14/2008 6:56:52 PM   
yourMissTress


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From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I see these terms as representing characteristics and personality traits.  We all have them, it's a matter of what we embrace and what we shun. 
 
I am very practical and logical...(masculine)
I am very touchy feely...(feminine)
I can fix a thing or two, change a tire, check my oil, and I'm not afraid to get dirty when it comes to working in the yard or rehabbing a house...(masculine)
I love shoes and shopping...(feminine)
I am just as comfortable and capable of talking about football with the guys as I am a love story with the girls.
I love both men and women.
 
There are many more, but the point is, these are all things that make up ME, there is balance in me and I embrace all of the parts of me.

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