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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/13/2008 9:12:03 PM

impishlilhellcat

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If I fear someone they are not getting anywhere near me. That means I have a huge lack of trust. However, intimidation or mindfucks were fear is instilled in me always gets my heart racing puts me on an adrenaline rush and awakens all my senses.

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/14/2008 12:45:05 AM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Do you want them to fear you?

Why yes or no?

If so, all the time or just during intense edge play?

How does fear factor in your relationship outside of the BDSM activities?

It is one of those dicotomys of D/s, My girl fears what I can and will do to her, her she craves that very thing AND she has total trust in the fact that she is safe from harm with Me.

If it was fear beyond that, fear of Me as a whole then no I wouldn't welcome it as it would work against the security I give her. As it is the fear which is there is in two parts...

she fears her own Maso side, it scares her and likewise she has that toward the sadistic side of Me that can sate that need in her but it is kept in check by the control she knows I have over that, that My duty of care means however much it may hurt I never let it get to harm.

The other fear, being a submissive, she fears disapointing Me. That doesn't come from Me but from herself, from how important My approval is to her. It is kept in check by the fact that she is a good girl and so rarely gives Me any reason for disapointment.

Both have a possitive effect on the relationship and are natural with the kind of girl she is, so I welcome them. Heck I even play with the first level of fear during play, using it to even more positive effect.

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/14/2008 1:29:19 AM

burntcynder

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i so understand those feelings, well put ChainedExistance

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/14/2008 7:18:37 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I want them to fear my disappointment in them

I do not want them to fear the lost of my undying love for them

I want them to fear what I could do to them

I do not want them to fear that I would intentionally harm them.

I want them to fear the pain of being without me

I do not want them to fear that I would abandon them.

I want them to fear Disobedience to me.

I do not want them to fear my Authority.

Being a big fan of lists and list structure, I love the way this is laid out and stated.

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/14/2008 7:30:33 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I want them to fear my disappointment in them

I do not want them to fear the lost of my undying love for them

I want them to fear what I could do to them

I do not want them to fear that I would intentionally harm them.

I want them to fear the pain of being without me

I do not want them to fear that I would abandon them.

I want them to fear Disobedience to me.

I do not want them to fear my Authority.

Thank you for those that enjoyed my comments. I suppose in a rather cryptic way, I was trying to express that in general fear is something that we live with in our daily lives. Every is going to be unique in what they are fearful of or not fearful of. But with every condition that we are fearful of... there can be something that counter acts the fear. It is a balance of sorts. People that enjoy fear will have their fulcrum closer to those fearful things because their is alot of positive emotions that generate from the condition. Others need the fulcrum very close to the counter of fear because what they fear is so paralyzing to them.

I believe it is important that in our relationships we have an appreciation of what it is we and our partners fear and what counter acts those fears. It is also important to appreciate the intensity of the fear since this will help us appreciate where the fulcrum is placed for ourselves and our partners.

Thank you again...

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 8/14/2008 7:31:20 AM >

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/14/2008 7:31:29 AM

SimplyMichael

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There is a vast difference between the sort of fear that eats at your soul and the sort that makes a woman's cunt gush. I despise the former and desire the latter.

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/14/2008 7:45:10 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

There is a vast difference between the sort of fear that eats at your soul and the sort that makes a woman's cunt gush. I despise the former and desire the latter.

Exactly. Corrosive fear that eats at a woman's soul, removing her feeling of security of "place and value" in YOUR heart and mind and life, her joy in living each day with you and the world, makes her begin to doubt her safety from harm rather than just hurt is to be despised and torn down. Fear and awe and intimidation in the way that Knight, you, myself, and others have expressed...this is what...in my opinion...should be sought.
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< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 8/14/2008 7:52:32 AM >

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/15/2008 7:44:07 AM

MaamJay

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I do not want them to fear Me ... but a little trepidation now and then goes a long way to pleasure!

Nice posts from Michael and Knight!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/15/2008 8:47:24 AM

happypervert

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Whenever the topic of fear comes up, I think of it in the context of a ruler as Machiavelli describes in The Prince. Those ideas are consistent with what KoM so eloquently describes, though the spin is a bit different. Here's a pretty good summary taken from this link:

quote:

Only by means of the proper application of power, Machiavelli believes, can individuals be brought to obey and will the ruler be able to maintain the state in safety and security. <snip> In other words, the legitimacy of law rests entirely upon the threat of coercive force; authority is impossible for Machiavelli as a right apart from the power to enforce it. Consequently, Machiavelli is led to conclude that fear is always preferable to affection in subjects, just as violence and deception are superior to legality in effectively controlling them. Machiavelli observes that “one can say this in general of men: they are ungrateful, disloyal, insincere and deceitful, timid of danger and avid of profit…. Love is a bond of obligation which these miserable creatures break whenever it suits them to do so; but fear holds them fast by a dread of punishment that never passes”

This is some rough stuff, and though it is oriented toward rulers of state I believe it is useful in D/s relationships as well. Note, however, that Machiavelli's preference for fear over love was his answer when faced with a choice between them, but he also goes on to say that the ideal is for the ruler to be both loved and feared -- unless I misread something, that's what KoM said too.

It could just boil down to using the carrot and the stick, but just knowing the stick is there (or fearing it) can often be enough to maintain discipline and order.

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/15/2008 9:14:15 AM

OrionTheWolf

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You mention when faced between the choice of love or fear. This is in line with my thoughts, that when dealing with TPE, or whatever it is currently called, that you must own your slave more than you love them. The more complete you can make the ownership and discipline, the more they can open up and surrender. If the ownership slips, then they feel insecure. The carrot and the stick is an apt anaology as well.

The fear should not be one that weakens the relationship and bond, but strengthens it and adds to the foundation. If trust is ever lost, that reverant fear can easily change to a more corrosive fear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

Whenever the topic of fear comes up, I think of it in the context of a ruler as Machiavelli describes in The Prince. Those ideas are consistent with what KoM so eloquently describes, though the spin is a bit different. Here's a pretty good summary taken from this link:

quote:

Only by means of the proper application of power, Machiavelli believes, can individuals be brought to obey and will the ruler be able to maintain the state in safety and security. <snip> In other words, the legitimacy of law rests entirely upon the threat of coercive force; authority is impossible for Machiavelli as a right apart from the power to enforce it. Consequently, Machiavelli is led to conclude that fear is always preferable to affection in subjects, just as violence and deception are superior to legality in effectively controlling them. Machiavelli observes that “one can say this in general of men: they are ungrateful, disloyal, insincere and deceitful, timid of danger and avid of profit…. Love is a bond of obligation which these miserable creatures break whenever it suits them to do so; but fear holds them fast by a dread of punishment that never passes”

This is some rough stuff, and though it is oriented toward rulers of state I believe it is useful in D/s relationships as well. Note, however, that Machiavelli's preference for fear over love was his answer when faced with a choice between them, but he also goes on to say that the ideal is for the ruler to be both loved and feared -- unless I misread something, that's what KoM said too.

It could just boil down to using the carrot and the stick, but just knowing the stick is there (or fearing it) can often be enough to maintain discipline and order.

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/15/2008 11:25:06 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

This is some rough stuff, and though it is oriented toward rulers of state I believe it is useful in D/s relationships as well. Note, however, that Machiavelli's preference for fear over love was his answer when faced with a choice between them, but he also goes on to say that the ideal is for the ruler to be both loved and feared -- unless I misread something, that's what KoM said too.

I think you read it rather well.... the only question is... what tool do you use in a given situation..... Fear or Love. I don't believe one is particularly more important than another... just that one will be more important in a given situation than another.

editted to add...

They also feed each other... often people see them as opposites... in alot of ways they are not. They actually feed each other... same coin.. just a different side. I can easier have one side to a coin than I can have only Love in a successful relationship. Fear will be there... just as the other side of the coin is there.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 8/15/2008 11:29:25 AM >

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/15/2008 1:23:20 PM

proudsub

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I was chatting with a dom that i know in r/l and the subject of blindfolds came up. He told me he never uses them on his subs becasue he loves to see the fear in their eyes during a scene.

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RE: Questions for M and D types, on fear - 8/15/2008 1:29:15 PM

happypervert

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KoM,

I agree that there is a paradox at times where fear and love aren't very far apart in a D/s relationship -- I think one could argue that you could establish fear and perpetuate it out of love in order to maintain authority that the submissive needs, and that it is one component to making the relationship work.

I think the key to fear is establishing a bit of it early on when submissives test for boundaries or to see if dominants will enforce authority or not; after that they should know they will suffer the consequences if they step out of line, so there should be little need for the dominant to actively use fear except perhaps as warnings. But then I am viewing times when authority needs to be enforced later as merely being consistent with rules set previously and reinforcing fear that should already exist, and not using fear itself.

Unlike Machiavelli's ruler of society at large, we get to select our partners so a little fear should go a long way -- I dunno, like maybe 5% fear and 95% warm and fuzzy might be about right for me while other folks prefer different mixes. Personally, I far prefer using positive reinforcement, or the carrot, but I'll use the stick too in those rare times when I think it will be more effective or necessary.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 8/15/2008 1:36:16 PM >

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