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Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 1:19:38 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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So, it's occured to me why I often have such trouble in most social situations, yet come across as incredibly competent, intelligent and compassionate in others.

I see most social situations as an inherent violation of consent, in both directions. I'm constantly bombarded by strange little manipulations and social dominance games that are clearly designed to give one person the upper hand over others, or designed to establish dominance or humiliate a target, and never once do I see these interactions negotiated or even honestly copped to.

Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't? Why does being honest about what you're doing require more moral care than lying about it and covering it up with social convention? Why can't we all just look each other in the eye, and deal with each other as sovereign individuals - and only play the dominance games when both parties acknowledge it? I can understand that sometimes those games have to be played even when one party or the other refuses to consent, but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?
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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 1:27:11 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

So, it's occured to me why I often have such trouble in most social situations, yet come across as incredibly competent, intelligent and compassionate in others.

I see most social situations as an inherent violation of consent, in both directions. I'm constantly bombarded by strange little manipulations and social dominance games that are clearly designed to give one person the upper hand over others, or designed to establish dominance or humiliate a target, and never once do I see these interactions negotiated or even honestly copped to.

Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't? Why does being honest about what you're doing require more moral care than lying about it and covering it up with social convention? Why can't we all just look each other in the eye, and deal with each other as sovereign individuals - and only play the dominance games when both parties acknowledge it? I can understand that sometimes those games have to be played even when one party or the other refuses to consent, but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?



Because:
 
* Most social interaction isn't worth the trouble.  What do I care if he really, really wants to hold the door for me?
 
* Most people are not self-actualized and cannot refrain from passive-aggressive little head games.
 
* Much social interaction is 'forced' on us -- e.g., we cannot choose who we work with, attend church with, live next door to, or even elect to political office.
 
Doesn't mitigate anyone's duty to obtain clear, knowing and voluntary consent for D/s sex, play or relationships.
 
candystripper

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 1:29:02 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

Doesn't mitigate anyone's duty to obtain clear, knowing and voluntary consent for D/s sex, play or relationships.
 


Even when the process of obtaining said consent, and validating the clarity, knowledge and volition of said consent may be attempted non-consentually?

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 7/4/2008 1:30:17 AM >

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 2:54:34 AM   
Maya2001


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Well even in a vanilla context  sex requires consent otherwise it is rape...do not assume that consent does not occur, when you take a job with a company you are consenting to do certain work in exchange for a paycheck  and you are answerable to certain persons in that role...you are consenting to that with your application/resume..but that does not mean you are agreeing to being bullied or doing work or providing service outside of the agreed terms..if you are subject to that you have a choice either to consent to it or refuse but if threatened for refusing you can  call in the aproppriate  eg authorities ER,  Workers rights etc.  When you rent an apartment ..the lease is a negotiated agreement or a buying a house the purchase offer is your agreement consent for  both fall within a municipality that you are agreeing to reside in  so you are also consenting to agree to the bylaws of that municipality and the laws of the state you choose to reside in.  ... when you choose to go into a restaurant  you are consenting to eat/drink there ..the menu specifies the terms which you agree the cost of when order from it.     The consent and negotiaton,terms  still exists ..there is just less discussed because pre existing paper work already exists laying out what you are consenting to in most cases

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 4:00:36 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


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You're thinking too deeply inregards to the concept of consent.  Keep is simple. 

In terms of everything you wrote about, that goes on day to day fact of life.  However remember these people do not outright agree to be in a comitted relationship with you. 

Also, you are not literally getting physical with them!  As opposed to physical BDSM play.

In terms of the mental mind fucks and social posturing that should be a given.


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 4:03:36 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


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The rest of the word has to be careful about consent as well.  People land in jail for rape, taking other people's property and doing other things to people and their property ever day. 

Don't tell me, you'd expect people to go around flogging, whipping, and pulling strangers hair and engaging in verbal humilation.

Mind you there might be verbal humilaiton in social settings, however there's a limit to the fun and games before somebody gettings pissed off... and people want nothing more to do with you.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 6:30:37 AM   
mettadas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
I see most social situations as an inherent violation of consent, in both directions. I'm constantly bombarded by strange little manipulations and social dominance games that are clearly designed to give one person the upper hand over others, or designed to establish dominance or humiliate a target, and never once do I see these interactions negotiated or even honestly copped to.

Almost all social animals behave so, to the extent that there is a strong corelation in primates between the size of the brain and the size of the social group that the primates tend to live in.  In other words, part of the reason that our brains are so large is so that we can play politics.  Small wonder then that we do.

quote:

Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't?\

We all need consent for the same activities.

quote:

Why can't we all just look each other in the eye, and deal with each other as sovereign individuals - and only play the dominance games when both parties acknowledge it?

Because status comes with advantages that people tend to want.  Because a lot of this is the results of millions of years of evolution that favoured high-status individuals.  Probably other reasons too.

quote:

I can understand that sometimes those games have to be played even when one party or the other refuses to consent, but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?

First we would have to be aware that we are doing it. :)

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 6:38:32 AM   
RCdc


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Because even if some people like to think that BDSM is deeper, more personal, better communication within etc and just plain different to so called 'vanilla' and anything else - they want it to be accepted the same as everything else and if it's consensual then it MUST be ok.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 9:52:28 AM   
Missokyst


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Life is a series of negotiations. 
We just tend to acknowlege it more openly.
As for regular nilla life being strange little manipulations.. do you really let that affect you?  I am generally in charge, but when I am not, and in a social setting it isn't a big deal to me.  I still feel confident, capable, and very little threatens that in me.  I can let someone call the shots and it does not make me feel trod upon.
For me life is negotiation, not manipulation.  I don't play that game.  Buying into it means there is a winner and a loser.  My security is not dependant on winning the game.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
I see most social situations as an inherent violation of consent, in both directions. I'm constantly bombarded by strange little manipulations and social dominance games that are clearly designed to give one person the upper hand over others,

Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't?



< Message edited by Missokyst -- 7/4/2008 9:54:07 AM >

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 9:58:21 AM   
DesFIP


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Makes me wonder about your friends and family. Mine don't manipulate me. But I have strong boundaries and that I believe is the difference. People with poor self esteem don't set up healthy boundaries.

Boundaries are like lanes dividing a road. If there are lanes marked and I drive down over the white line then I'm a road hog. If it's a wide back road without boundaries my driving down the middle doesn't make me a road hog because I have no way of knowing if this is supposed to be a two lane or four lane road.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 10:01:57 AM   
darkpassenger434


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I would say that you have provided consent if you stand there and take it. The next time someone plays the little dominance games either explicitly state that you're not buying it or do the opposite of what they want. Watch what happens. That said, I do think the world would be better as you want it, sans that sort of thing.
-R

PS - Love your handle. Lovecraft forever.

< Message edited by darkpassenger434 -- 7/4/2008 10:02:53 AM >


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 10:15:24 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Can I get an example of these social dominance games?

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 10:57:31 AM   
pettingdragons


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Can I get an example of these social dominance games?


here here....girl seconds that~


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 11:29:16 AM   
dvart


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When I went to an art school where you could do ANYTHING.

You just had to turn up at a few seminars and tutorials each week and otherwise you could do whatever you wanted.

But of course there were rules, there have to be rules in any power structure, it's just that they were implicit.

Some people played the game, worked it out and were successful, some of us failed, others went mad, literally.

Power will always structure itself, it's just a question of whether it's explicit or implicit.

The power structure between me and a sub/slave is explicit: she does what I want within the terms of what we agree beforehand. There are no arguments or confusions, that is how it is.

We are freed from petty negotiations about power to experience the more important things in life.


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 1:10:56 PM   
Amaros


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BDSM is a formalization of certain dynamics inherent in mammalian socil interaction - what we call Vanilla is less formal, less restrictive in some ways, more restictive in others - in current vanilla social consensus, tying up and flogging your mate or engaging in forced penetration of any sort  is unacceptable, formally speaking. On the other hand, Goreans do not recognize either Domina's or Switches, whereas in a mainstream BDSM you can be either, and in Vanilla relationships or less formalized PE relationships, dominance may be more fluid, situational rather than formally defined.

i.e., if you try to apply a strict formal interpretation on Vanillla relationships, you might not be able to keep up - domnance can be very fluid, and the dynamics it's based on are myriad: social, economic, physical, intellectual, linguistic, fashion, etc., etc.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 1:16:18 PM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Can I get an example of these social dominance games?
The suck up/brother in law/nephew/cousin, etc. gets promoted or even  replaces you even though you've been there longer and are better at your job, then feels obligated to bust your balls in order to establish their dominance - happens all the time, I've been fired or quit several jobs I otherwise liked over this very thing.

This is an extreme example, but every job I've ever been in has had some sort of dynamic going on like this under the surface, to greater or lesser extent - it's called "politics".

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 2:06:38 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Thanks Amaros.  I agree those are excellent examples that happen all the time, but due to the inclusion of financial ties, I'm not sure I'd lump those into general social situations.  For me social situations are free personal choices.

Of course there are assholes everywhere, jerks everywhere, clueless dorks everywhere- but I do not experience non consensual social dominance games everywhere I go or the majority of places I go.  So I wanted to know if I'm just being oblivious or if there's a definition issue or what.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 2:15:49 PM   
came4U


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Life in general is full of social domination and submission.

The only difference is we are assumed to use sex as the forerunner to any confront situation.  The rest of the world uses it's patterns of top and bottom in everyday use.

Ever notice how with some stores...sometimes the cashier is top and the buyer acts bottom?  Yet, at another time,..(depending on the people) the customer is top and the cashier acts bottom (groveller)?

The only difference between 'regular life' and the bottom/top philosphy is if it were to become actuality in nature.

That fears most people.  The very things they do everyday, naturally...fears people who are acting the way they are out of sheer selfishness (bottom or top).


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/4/2008 2:39:41 PM   
Amaros


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Think high school LA - ya know, social stratification - and you can throw in sexism, racism, ageism, etc., etc. Officially, as a culture, we're sort of trying  to get past all that, or at least not let it get out of hand, but you you'll never get rid of it entirely - some places/people are just better about it than others essentially.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 5:04:53 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

So, it's occured to me why I often have such trouble in most social situations, yet come across as incredibly competent, intelligent and compassionate in others.


Bit of advice with best of intentions: don't settle for a one-factor explanation here...

quote:

I see most social situations as an inherent violation of consent, in both directions. I'm constantly bombarded by strange little manipulations and social dominance games that are clearly designed to give one person the upper hand over others, or designed to establish dominance or humiliate a target, and never once do I see these interactions negotiated or even honestly copped to.


That would be an accurate summary of neurotypical social interaction.

Get a day off. Go to the zoo. Make sure it's a day when there are few people there, so as to get less interference with the observation. Then spend the day watching monkeys interacting. If you realize that words can be symbolic hugs, punches, or even feces to be flung, you may find an entirely new perspective waiting for you. One that greatly simplifies and enhances social interaction, so long as you bear in mind that most people don't want to know what you learned during your day at the zoo.

A certain pro-cure autistic termed this the response-predictor model of communication.

He had a simplistic take on it, and I'm not too fond of the pro-cure camp, but the basic idea is sound.

Consider that we are born much like the little chicklets that will squeak for food and try to kick the others out of the nest. Squeaking (or, rather, crying and screaming) tends to give poor results in the long term, and we're wired to pick up language. So, while we're still at a stage where self-interest governs all and empathic awareness of others is fully absent, we acquire language and the habit of wielding it as a tool to get a response. It's basic biology, but frequently denied for the can of worms inherent in the realization.

Later, empathic awareness grows, social contact is desired, and so forth.

But the habit is already there. Manipulation is already our native language. A few, rare individuals don't pick that up. Most of them acquire it later in life or get pretty wierd'ish over time, perhaps even neurotic. It is not optional in social interaction, and if you bear in mind that what people say their values are and what values they will act on, you will quickly arrive at the conclusion that jungle law mandates that you manipulate people as they want. There are some cultural norms as to where the line is drawn between a good connotation ("communication") and a bad connotation ("manipulation"), mostly based on intent, skill and outcome.

Also, bear in mind that consent is a facilitator, little more; society is not based on consent.

Humans are animals of the species Homo Sapiens, no more, no less.

To expect differently is to be disappointed.

To acknowledge is to appreciate.

quote:

Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't?


We do? 

First off, it's an established subcultural convention that you pretty much have to adhere to in most crowds if you want to avoid alienation and rejection. Second, some of us include it in our personal ethical standards. Third, our practices step outside the bounds of what is moral in our societies, and using consent (in itself an arguably important moral enabler that mainstream society will get around to at some point, one hopes) allows these practices to be pursued without the resulting cognitive dissonance.

Really, consent is a pretty vague term, and more a matter of covering your ass than anything else.

At worst, it can become a substitute for intentions and awareness. At best, it formalizes relations between two people that aren't very familiar with each other, allowing them to jump into a level of interaction that they otherwise would spend more time getting to. If a woman has climbed into your bed and is dangling her underwear in front of your nose with a coy smile, it's a reasonable assumption that (a) fucking her brains out is going to be appropriate at some point in the near future, and (b) asking for her consent to do so is infinitely more likely to turn her off like a lightswitch than simply grabbing her ass and sweeping her off into a scene out of some Black Lace novel.

quote:

Why can't we all just look each other in the eye, and deal with each other as sovereign individuals - and only play the dominance games when both parties acknowledge it?


Because it is not in our natures to do so, however many coats of paint we cover ourselves in.

quote:

I can understand that sometimes those games have to be played even when one party or the other refuses to consent, but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?


Facing uncomfortable truths that run contrary to our professed values will cause dissonance. This is why embracing human nature requires rejecting cultural norms. Anecdotally, it seems to be widely recognized in the Gorean lifestyles that the process of becoming is less a matter of embracing something new than it is a matter of rejecting the moth-eaten windowdressing that covers it, i.e. unbuilding.

As a fellow transhumanist, surely the importance of discarding assumption is not lost on you.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
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