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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 5:24:04 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

On the other hand, Goreans do not recognize either Domina's or Switches, whereas in a mainstream BDSM you can be either, and in Vanilla relationships or less formalized PE relationships, dominance may be more fluid, situational rather than formally defined.


Bit of a generalization there. Goreans do not explicitly recognize football, either. Still, I'm pretty sure a good number of them enjoy watching their favorite team. It just isn't something that is intrinsic to the outlook. Similarly, a FC isn't a slave in the outlook of the Gorean lifestyle, but there's nothing wrong with one having a BDSM-relationship with the other party.

I've noted that some are more into 50's lifestyle or neo-luddism than actual Gorean lifestyle.

That does not mean that all of us are walking around with blinders on.

Consider, for instance, that Naja is generally well thought of and respected in the Gor section of the boards here. She is also a female dominant, and has stated on the board that male dominants register as peers rather than potential mates with her. Even Bull has sung her praises, nonetheless.

What Goreans generally have an issue with in that context is the animal side of it all: as humans, we instinctively evaluate whether the other party is able to cash any checks their mouth might be writing. And with all due respect, it is far more common to find a man whose checks don't bounce.

With Naja, I have no doubt her account is in order.

The same holds true for several others, and it doesn't matter to me whether that is a matter of what checks they write or what their account balance is. I have, however, encountered some who exceed their balance on a regular basis, and find it difficult to regard those with the same respect that I regard e.g. Naja. That is not a gender thing, either, as I have the same issue with a maledom that does the same thing.

Others' mileages may and will vary, but that is the gist of it.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 5:45:51 AM   
Wisenlilminx


Posts: 56
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		you fink too much.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 6:50:36 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		I haven't a clue what "fink" means, apart from the bird.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 9:53:05 AM   
MmeGigs


Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't?  Why does being honest about what you're doing require more moral care than lying about it and covering it up with social convention? Why can't we all just look each other in the eye, and deal with each other as sovereign individuals - and only play the dominance games when both parties acknowledge it? I can understand that sometimes those games have to be played even when one party or the other refuses to consent, but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?


You're assuming that we're all that careful with consent, and that we apply this to our social interactions.  That's a heck of a big assume.  In my experience, kinky folks are as likely to be manipulative and engage in non-con social dominance games as anyone else.  Even folks who aren't usually like this can be like this from time to time.  We all know the person who is usually forthright and reasonable who through some strange confluence of events, circumstances and company spends an evening being an absolute dick.  Maybe we've even been that person.  I know I have.  I assume it's the god of humility giving me a dope-slap.

I think that a lot of people who have come across to me as manipulative are really just trying to avoid social awkwardness and didn't think of their hints and beating-around-the-bush as manipulative, or intend them to be.  They don't want to put me in the position of having to say no because they don't like to say no.  They want to feel me out and decide whether or not to ask.  I think they'd prefer that I get the hint and offer.  To them this feels less invasive.  To me, it feels more invasive.  I'd prefer that they just ask and let me accept or decline without all the dancing around, but they don't do that because from the receiving end they would process that as being put on the spot, maybe even as rudeness or aggression.  I've left them no graceful out.

There are folks who use the social dominance stuff to their advantage, but I don't think that there are many who are really trying to take advantage of others, if that makes sense.  I think that most of these folks feel that this is what we all do and that to do otherwise would put them at a disadvantage.  Some of them are scared or feel inadequate, and you can tell that they're overcompensating.  The bluster is a way of building a wall and protecting themselves.  There are also folks who use blunt and straightforward communication as a social dominance tool.  They call it "brutal honesty", but it's usually more about being brutal than it is about being honest. 

It's a basic truth that we can't change other people, we can only change the way we react to them.  I'm ultimately responsible for my own boundaries where these things are concerned.  If someone's trying to manipulate me or is playing social dominance games, it's really about what's going on with them and has little to do with me.  I don't really need them to acknowledge it - I can acknowledge it and let them know that I'm not okay with it.  If I establish my boundaries with that person in a way that doesn't insult or embarrass them, they often come to deal with me straightforwardly.  Not always. 

If I can't reason with them, or the social connection I have with them is so casual that there's really not any point in making an issue of it, I can choose to ignore them or at least ignore the behavior.  I have a much better chance of making an ass of myself if I engage them about it.  If my interaction with the person is purely social, I can just politely avoid dealing with them.  I don't have to socialize with them at large events, can choose not to go to small parties where they'll be around, certainly don't have to spend any one-on-one time with them.  If it's work or a club or some other situation I need to look around and see if it's just one person or if it's the organization's culture, and if it's the latter I should probably move on.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 10:19:39 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
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Status: offline 		I think this is a case of kinky people trying to see authority dynamics in everything.  Someone's not trying to be "the dom" just because they are insecure and want you to go get them some pliers at the hardware store.  I think if people stopped trying to MAKE everything into a Ds or top/bottom issue, they'd be a lot more relaxed and enjoy what there is to enjoy.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 10:42:23 AM   
SirDominic


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quote:

I see most social situations as an inherent violation of consent, in both directions.


Interesting comment. Are most social situations an inherent violation of consent? Or are they, in actuality, a form of unspoken agreement and consent. I think we often forget, at our peril, that biologically, we are a social species. One which has had some 3 millions years or so of conditioning. Layered over that is a veneer of "modern behavior" which we have developed in the last couple thousand years.

We like to pretend that the latter controls the former, but the reality is that it is the former, our millions of years of social dominance and submission that is a part of our biology that really is in control. We see it every day, someone is hamstrung on how to proceed because they are trapped between modern social conditioning and their biological needs.

One infamous example is explained in the book "Smart Women, Foolish Choices". Why women who have intelligence, have their life together and are very competent, always pick the worst person when it comes to a partner. Conditioning versus biology.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 12:23:49 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think this is a case of kinky people trying to see authority dynamics in everything.


More like trying to frame existing authority dynamics in kinky terms.

The dynamic itself is pretty well documented, and can also be observed in our relatives, the great apes.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 3:38:22 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		Well, the problem I have is, 'kinky' terms are the only ones that give me any control over the process of observation and experimentation, so they're the only ones I feel even remotely familiar with. Most 'vanilla' social dominance games alternately terrify and horrify me. Whenever I try to merge the lessons I've learned from exploring and experimenting with both enviornments, the conclusions I seem to draw are that consent is a pure illusion no matter what you're doing, and that dominance games work best when you don't even give the other party a chance to realize what's going on, let alone consent to it. This seems perfect if you only care about power for powers' sake, or if your goals don't involve utilizing anyone's higher brain functions and self-determination simultaneously. 

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 4:04:48 PM   
MrSpectacular


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Status: offline 		To the OP - it seems to me that your views on social dominance , games etc versus your BDSM views are interesting - but they  resolve around your inner feeling about it - it does not in any way make it real or true - nor I believe can you judge others who may or may not be playing social dominance games. It just seems remarkably arrogant for you to suggest other people may be playing games - you may think they are playing games - that does not make it real.
Could it be the crux of your argument is that you are more comfortable in a bdsm world than a vanilla world - well welcome to the club.
One other comment - you have no control over anyone but yourself - even if you are the lord and master - again you may think you have . So to suggest that by adopting certain kinky terms you have some semblance of control doesn't  ring true.

Again - just my opinions.


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 6:01:16 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		The idea that "I have no control over anyone but myself" has always struck me as somewhat absurd. Of course I don't have complete control over anyone, even myself - and of course I have some amount of control over everyone I interact with. For example, would you have decided to reply to this thread if I had never posted it?

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/5/2008 9:17:03 PM   
WhatUrSeeking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

and only play the dominance games when both parties acknowledge it? I can understand that sometimes those games have to be played even when one party or the other refuses to consent, but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?


In many social situations in life we do jocky for position. In most non-work settings I think it is just instinctual. Who is the Alpha etc. Start bossing everyone around though and you will find few friends. From what I know good leaders are not complete dicks to their followers. All these discussion's about power dynamics makes me think I should study leadership in more depth.

At work is where it is most present. Money, status within the organization, feeling of accomplishment, and whatever else you assign to career progression are on the line. At least with work most people seem to be aware that politics are involved, and that some people play dirty. We could all send each other a memo saying that we will use social interactions as well as our actual work to advance in our careers, so that we establish the rules of the game. People are not going to stop since it works. Of course you are already not at a disadvantage since you are aware. Still it seems to me that if it is petty games the people are playing then they are likely to backfire. Some strategies are effective others are not. It seems that in work it is your professional reputation that moves you forward, not petty games. The question is your reputation with whom, and how is your reputation enhanced or tarnished? Good work is critical, but it seems social interaction is going to come in to play big time as well.

If we all openly acknowledge that we should not litter in our on community does that mean there won't be trash in the street? Would most people even acknowledge that we should not use social interactions to establish and maintain dominance?

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/8/2008 7:04:19 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Whenever I try to merge the lessons I've learned from exploring and experimenting with both enviornments, the conclusions I seem to draw are that consent is a pure illusion no matter what you're doing, and that dominance games work best when you don't even give the other party a chance to realize what's going on, let alone consent to it.


I see no problem with this. It's how we (humans) work.

quote:

This seems perfect if you only care about power for powers' sake, or if your goals don't involve utilizing anyone's higher brain functions and self-determination simultaneously.


If someone registers as a peer, I will relate to them as such. Apart from that, I try to keep good intentions in mind, fully aware that intentions are entirely subjective. But the simple fact is that when a man averts his eyes from mine, or a woman yields and turns pliant, the biological mandate is in effect: we are complementary, and it would really be ludicrous of me to deny the role nature has reserved for me.

The real difference is whether you're going to do well by those that bend to your will, or simply use them, even use them up. I don't see an objective problem with either, but I'd probably interfere with the latter, and approve of the former. Personally, I really don't have a problem with skimming cream off the top, but it's not in me to be a tyrant.

Except, of course, in relation to those who seek just that.

Ask yourself what you would do if you became a god. Then ponder that, in times past, a god was a man who fully accepted his place as such. Of course, nowadays, people have other ways to respond than dropping to their knees to worship, and the cultural influence opposes such responses, replacing innate authority with assigned / conferred authority. Pop and media icons are exceptions, although worship doesn't involve kneeling.

Anyway, if you were to buy this explanation, or if you became whatever your notion of a god is, would you accept that role? Would you allow others to worship you? Would you allow them to serve at your feet? Could you take for granted the authority to direct their lives as you saw fit, in accordance with your own overall plan for them? What, in that case, would your plan be?

Personally, I'd like to think I'd have some moderation (why have a harem of millions when Jolie will do nicely, for instance?), and I'd like to think I'd be a more beneficial one than many that have been revered and worshipped throughout the ages, but there's really no question as to accepting the role: I'd do it, and not for the power itself. When I answered those questions for myself, a lot of things became clear.

I hope you can learn more of yourself in asking them, as well.

Health,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: No, I don't have any aspirations to ascend to godhood, at least not for another 4 years.
P.P.S.: That doesn't mean that I won't take on "nuns" who got wet from pondering the above bits.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/9/2008 8:00:44 PM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline 		Hello Aswad!
So when you form your own church, are there going to be nuns? Are there going to be gods? Do you get to be a god or just a reverend or some such? LOL


He he
Y

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/9/2008 10:40:49 PM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent


I see bdsm interaction as normal.  I see a lot of the protocols as nonconsensual demands made by people who are either over protective (infringing on my freedom) or over bearing (infringing on my freedom.). 

You are correct that the activity is there.  In both cases bdsm and normal, I vote for common sense, common courtesy and a little compassion.  I like your thought, but people have choices.  If someone lets themself be dominated, demeaned, etc., they have chosen to participate in that interaction.   Or lost control.  There are predators that have no scruples, people with inferiority complexes, the mentally ill and just plain bastards.  There are victims who invite what they believe they deserve, there are the weak, the damaged etc.  We are still not humane humans.  It would be nice if everyone got along, but we are not that evolved yet.

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/9/2008 11:08:43 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hey, Ygraine.

I wasn't planning on being the deity of my own church, no.

But if people want to make a religion out of me, I guess I can't really fault their taste, eh?

And, yes, either way, nuns are good... someone needs to, ahem, serve the community's needs, right? 

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/10/2008 4:41:08 AM   
Anoush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I see most social situations as an inherent violation of consent, in both directions.


Yes, and?  If we had to get consent for our every social interaction, we wouldn't get much done.  We have been living in groups for long enough that it should come as no surprise that we behave like bands of monkeys, herds of horses, what have you.  It's innate.

quote:

Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't?


'Cause we're tying people up and hitting them.  Without clear consent, that could be mistrued as an antisocial action.

quote:

but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?


Since it's the normal state of affairs, why should we see it as something we need to admit to?

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/10/2008 5:17:52 AM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Well, the problem I have is, 'kinky' terms are the only ones that give me any control over the process of observation and experimentation, so they're the only ones I feel even remotely familiar with.
So you are trying to "give a term" for everything in your life???  How exhausting that must be......
Most 'vanilla' social dominance games alternately terrify and horrify me.
What social dominance games? Like a man with self confidence walks into the board room and everyone else gets quite and paitently waits to hear what he has to say? they may not be dominance just self confidence....many men like this are submissives....the same can be said for a women ....in fact this slave has even seen childern do it....its the kind of thing that speaks of a dominance when its just the average "joe" (no offense to the people named joe out there) who is getting the job done.....
Whenever I try to merge the lessons I've learned from exploring and experimenting with both enviornments, the conclusions I seem to draw are that consent is a pure illusion no matter what you're doing, and that dominance games work best when you don't even give the other party a chance to realize what's going on, let alone consent to it.
What type of exploring and experimenting? Can you post the results and the tests? people watching is one of the best past times....since this slave lives on the beach...
Dominance is an illusion...consent is not....
In a relatioinship (and that word is used lightly and in all its forms) even mild consent is given. slave has given Master consent to do as he wishes...so if he wants to sneak in the window and scare his slave or attack her he can...she trusts him not to "harm" her....but if someone else where to do that Dominant or not...if the 100lb shepard didnt get him...slave would finish him off with a broad sword or shot him...slave is to protect Masters property and that incudes herself....because with out ANY type of consent its rape or abuse...and that is not legal here in the States...and its "ify" on the moral code ....depends on your moral code and thats a WHOLE other ball of wax....
 
This seems perfect if you only care about power for powers' sake, or if your goals don't involve utilizing anyone's higher brain functions and self-determination simultaneously. 

All of slaves higher brain functions are used by her Master and self determination as well.....**** LOL
Maybe you should get out more...or less....
pettingdragons
Master Dragons slave

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/11/2008 3:12:59 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anoush

'Cause we're tying people up and hitting them.  Without clear consent, that could be mistrued as an antisocial action.


Misconstrued?

It basically is, by majority definition.

After all, this isn't football or boxing, it's relationships.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Anoush)
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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/11/2008 6:20:37 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

So, it's occured to me why I often have such trouble in most social situations, yet come across as incredibly competent, intelligent and compassionate in others.

I see most social situations as an inherent violation of consent, in both directions. I'm constantly bombarded by strange little manipulations and social dominance games that are clearly designed to give one person the upper hand over others, or designed to establish dominance or humiliate a target, and never once do I see these interactions negotiated or even honestly copped to.

Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't? Why does being honest about what you're doing require more moral care than lying about it and covering it up with social convention? Why can't we all just look each other in the eye, and deal with each other as sovereign individuals - and only play the dominance games when both parties acknowledge it? I can understand that sometimes those games have to be played even when one party or the other refuses to consent, but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?



I think you answered your own question above.

Being honest and open about involves a greater level of risk -- you could be rejected -- as well as a greater level of personal responsibility -- you can't claim the other was too stupid, too weak, or god told you to be the leader.

The benefits in my very strong opinion far outweigh these risks.

If I am open and enter into Ds dynamic consensually, then we both take responsibility for maintaining, I've just lessen my workload in the relationship.

However manipulating someone, attempt to control someone without their consent means you must be constantly on guard for any sign of deviation. Even the most abused and beaten down person has the will to survive and if given a chance they may bolt on you or attempt to turn the table or contact the authority. In order to maintain the illusion of control I have to increase the violence or threats or promises of reward without fail.. maintaining my "power" then requires a great deal of my time thus enslaving me as much if not more than the person I'm lording over.

Damn that sounds so tiring and stressful.. why would anyone want to add that to their lives?

Within the mundane world though you can attempt to create consent. For example, when I teach, I'm the professor and I have authority from the school and my department. However I tell my students that first day - the syllabus is our contract, you don't like it, you can't live up to it, switch to another class. It is rare that there is absolutely no other options.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Seeing normal social interaction as BDSM sans consent - 7/11/2008 3:59:58 PM   
Battleflag


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2008
Status: offline 		Why do we have to be so careful with consent, when the rest of the world doesn't?

Because it's not that they don't have to, it's that most aren't able to.

Why does being honest about what you're doing require more moral care than lying about it and covering it up with social convention?

Because I think there's more truth and honesty inherent in BDSM and the minute trust and consideration is disregarded it turns BDSM into a grope in the back of a Camaro.  ( not that there's anything wrong with the back of a Camaro...   : )      )

Why can't we all just look each other in the eye, and deal with each other as sovereign individuals - and only play the dominance games when both parties acknowledge it?

It's called free will.  No one has to do anything.  Also, many are invited by another to do just what you propose but are too blind or do see the social context but choose to disregard it anyway.  (i.e.  politeness)

I can understand that sometimes those games have to be played even when one party or the other refuses to consent, but can't we at the very least admit that that's what we're doing?

See my previous.  That you can see the truth as it's shaped for your own world should be enough.  Thinking beyond that will get you a rubber room if you push it too far.

*goes back to his imaginary friends*

< Message edited by Battleflag -- 7/11/2008 4:27:25 PM >

_____________________________

"Anyone who hasn’t experienced the ecstasy of betrayal knows nothing about ecstasy at all." ~ Jean Genet

"Even Christ could only get 11 of 12 right." ~ Unknown

"After all these years I'm still haze grey and underway..." ~ Me.


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