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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 6:49:25 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		isolation, may i step in before this gets ugly?
 
i think if you are new to the forums you might not know that when communicating here you loose a lot of nuances that we take for granted in the world of face to face communication.
 
things like body language, facial expression and voice tonality are all lost, also gone are the pleasantries of introduction and saying good by.
 
so it is generally a good idea to assume that folks are simply stating facts and not invested in one upping anyone  else although often times their communication style might look like they are.
 
always assume folk mean the best and if you stay around here long enough you will see that most of us do mean the best.
 
just a little tip for hanging out here, because sometimes it is rough esp when someone else is also jumping to conclusions.

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 7:04:34 AM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		Welcome to the forums Isolation.

I must admit I also prefer the word dominant probably because that is what I hear the most.  I don't really like the word - dominator, as the.dark said it sounds very Arnie-ish. 

"I'll be back.....to beat your ass!" 


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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 7:09:51 AM   
Isolation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Dominator indicates falseness.  When used as a noun it is expressing a elevated position, which just isn't there considering all peoples are equally unequal.  To me it screams 'pretense'.  And Arnie.



Actually there is nothing in the definition of the word that suggests pretense. As has been pointed out, the word isn't even in circulation to have earned itself a reputation.
 
I find it somewhat amusing that the masculine version of "dominatrix" is somehow 'wrong' but "dominatrix" is ok. I'm baffled that this should be made an issue. If the genders be equal, then certainly the use of the appropriate word by either gender should not generate a ruckus.
 
As for "Arnie", that would be the Terminator. Not even a homonym for Dominator.
 
At best they rhyme.
 
quote:


Welcome to the forums btw.

 
Thank you.

(in reply to RCdc)
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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 7:17:55 AM   
Isolation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

isolation, may i step in before this gets ugly?
 


Thank you, Tigress.

In my little corner of the world we tend to look upon someone who issues bald-faced accusations based on unchecked assumptions as a person who has issues.

I don't so the ensuing drama can be amusing but rarely productive.

The word is a perfectly legitimate word in the english vocabulary. I hardly think mentioning this fact and its applicability to bdsm is a serious offense against the sensibilities of the readers of this forum.

But I realize for some the one twue way requires the use of the word "dominant" and no other.

Live and let live.

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 7:27:16 AM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation

I find it somewhat amusing that the masculine version of "dominatrix" is somehow 'wrong' but "dominatrix" is ok. I'm baffled that this should be made an issue. If the genders be equal, then certainly the use of the appropriate word by either gender should not generate a ruckus.
 
As for "Arnie", that would be the Terminator. Not even a homonym for Dominator.
 
At best they rhyme.



OK, now I'm amused. 

You post that the word that is common vernacular, 'dominant', is incorrect and it would properly be 'dominator'.  Are you aware that 'dominator' is rarely, if ever, used (I've never seen it on the forums here in almost a year of reading), and that most on here would consider themselves 'dominant' versus 'dominator'?  If so, you come onto a board with one of your first posts and tell some that a word they use and the one that CM uses is, actually, incorrect.  And you're baffled that it's an issue. 

Okey-dokey, then.  It's a cute thing to point out in terms of language usage, and if you choose to label yourself as 'dominator' feel free, of course.  It might have remained cute if you hadn't debated the issue ...

It's rather like walking into someone's house, admiring the rug then running them down for their choice of paint. 

So, yes, I'm amused. 

< Message edited by NeedingMore220 -- 6/27/2008 7:30:29 AM >

(in reply to Isolation)
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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 7:28:18 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation

Actually there is nothing in the definition of the word that suggests pretense. As has been pointed out, the word isn't even in circulation to have earned itself a reputation.


Just so you know - I am a resident word whore.  They are my fetish.  And yes, in the entire fetish sense.
It has been in circulation, just not in BDSM circles persay.  Dominators throughout history are those that command and place into position dominance by force.  Caesar would be a good example.  Here was a commander, who had submissive compliants, but whom also had those under him who were under his leadership not by consent, but by force.  It is superiority.  Dominators (dictionary defined) are rulers and exercise control regardless of consent.  So in the context of BDSM, it would not be applicable.
 
quote:

I find it somewhat amusing that the masculine version of "dominatrix" is somehow 'wrong' but "dominatrix" is ok. I'm baffled that this should be made an issue. If the genders be equal, then certainly the use of the appropriate word by either gender should not generate a ruckus.
 
I don't have issues with the word dominatrix the word has specific meaning and is pretty classy IMO - I do have issue with is being classed as the femine version of 'dominator' - because it is not.  'Dominator' has no specific gender so either males or females could be classed as dominators.

quote:

As for "Arnie", that would be the Terminator. Not even a homonym for Dominator.
 
At best they rhyme.

 
That was the point.
I do hope you don't feel that I am arguing with you (I cannot and do not speak for others, only myself) but words are my 'thing' and I love a good old discussion on the history and perspectives of words and how they are strung together.
 
I will also add that I do not consider myself as 'a submissive' nor any dominant person as 'a dominant' (just for the purpose of your information) because they do not work well for me wordwise.  However it is always important to note that correct grammar and dictionary references are not always applicable in BDSM circles.


the.dark.
(.editsbecausemynailsaretoolong.)

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 6/27/2008 7:46:17 AM >

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 7:35:36 AM   
Isolation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

Okey-dokey, then.  It's a cute thing to point out in terms of language usage, and if you choose to label yourself as 'dominator' feel free, of course.  It might have continued to be cute if you hadn't continued to debate the issue ...

So, yes, I'm amused. 



Actually, I don't call myself either.

I am just a man, and that is how I think of myself.

But I also happen to write, and grammar happens to be one of the skills a writer needs.

So I can't help noticing how people use words.

Where I saw this as a rather unimportant intellectual diversion, others are viewing this from a more visceral pov.

So anyone who wants to build a federal case around this is welcome to do so.

For me, it would be the proverbial mountain out of a mole-hill.

(in reply to NeedingMore220)
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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 7:44:05 AM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation

For me, it would be the proverbial mountain out of a mole-hill.


I understand your perspective, because I'm a writer also, as well as an editor.  I fully understand the annoyance of coming across something that is grammatically incorrect - a road sign, for instance.  It makes me want to grind my teeth. 

As a backup to what crouchingtigress pointed out - it's so very difficult on boards to show inflection and the emotions behind words.  What you may mean as a  tongue-in-cheek or casual observance may come across a different way.

Anywho ... welcome to the boards!

(in reply to Isolation)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 7:55:07 AM   
Isolation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Just so you know - I am the resident word whore.  They are my fetish.  And yes, in the entire fetish sense.

 
Excellent.

quote:

It has been in circulation, just not in BDSM circles persay.  Dominators throughout history are those that command and place into position dominance by force.  Caesar would be a good example.  Here was a commander, who had submissive compliants, but whom also had those under him who were under his leadership not by consent, but by force.  It is superiority.  Dominators (dictionary defined) are rulers and exercise control regardless of consent.  So in the context of BDSM, it would not be applicable.

 
This is no less true for bdsm terms such as "master" and "slave".
 
My dictionary does not list "dominator", but includes a footnote for "dominatrix" which explains that "dominatrix" is the feminine form of "dominator".
 
If "dominatrix" has a legitimate use within bdsm (and I am not challenging that fact) then I fail to see the argument against the use of "dominator".
 
For me it is like claiming we can use the words "her/she" but not "him/he".
 
We are denying the legitimacy of a word based solely on the fact the word appears in masculine form and not the more familiar feminine form. 
 
I don't know how one can produce an argument to justify that kind of selectivity.

quote:


I don't have issues with the word dominatrix the word has specific meaning and is pretty classy IMO - I do have issue with is being classed as the femine version of 'dominator' - because it is not.  'Dominator' has no specific gender so either males or females could be classed as dominators.

 
See my note above. My dictionary clearly makes the point that "dominatrix" is the feminine form of "dominator". Both are derived from dominarri ("to be lord over") and dominus ("lord"). "Lord" itself is exclusively masculine. Ergo, "dominator" is also exclusively masculine, requiring the word "dominatrix" to express the concept of a female "dominator".
 

quote:
I do hope you don't feel that I am arguing with you (I cannot and do not speak for others, only myself) but words are my 'thing' and I love a good old discussion on the history and perspectives of words and how they are strung together.


I enjoy those kinds of discussion as well. General definition, local dialect, and personal connotation all play a part in how each of us understands the meaning of a word.
 
quote:
However it is always important to note that correct grammar and dictionary references are not always applicable in BDSM circles.


Try telling that to those who hate to see the word "dominate" used as a noun

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 8:04:38 AM   
Isolation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220
As a backup to what crouchingtigress pointed out - it's so very difficult on boards to show inflection and the emotions behind words.  What you may mean as a  tongue-in-cheek or casual observance may come across a different way.

Anywho ... welcome to the boards!


Thank you.

Perhaps some of the confusion came from my use of the word "proper", which in grammar has a specific meaning that has nothing to do with the question of morality.

And perhaps there are those who hated grammar in school ( I know I did, so boring  ).

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 8:06:13 AM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation
And perhaps there are those who hated grammar in school ( I know I did, so boring  ).


LOL!  So true.  When my kids complain about studying language arts (English) in school, I remind them that they don't have to diagram sentences like I had to.  It's like a death sentence! 

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 8:26:49 AM   
Isolation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

LOL!  So true.  When my kids complain about studying language arts (English) in school, I remind them that they don't have to diagram sentences like I had to.  It's like a death sentence! 



I think the dislike of studying our own language comes from the assumption that if we speak it we must know all there is to know about it, so studying it is a waste of time.

I've found among some there is a certain kind of 'snobbery' about being ignorant when it comes to english.

And while I can switch from one vocabulary to another to meet the needs of the audience, I find I miss the nuances of an expanded vocabulary when I must communicate at limited levels of sophistication.

Perhaps this has something to do with the linkage between language and class. Our shared heritage that stems from the English class society where the upper classes could be identified by their erudition whereas the lower classes developed their own local dialects which set them apart from the upper classes.

Some talk of those who speak well as "putting on airs", especially if the individual in question is from a working class. This has led to anti-intellectual movements over time. The most recent example I can think of is creationism.

I think it would be unfortunate to condemn anyone for doing what they do well. If an athelete could run the four-minute mile we would not say he/she is "putting on airs", so why should intellectual pursuits be treated differently?

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 8:58:56 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation 
This is no less true for bdsm terms such as "master" and "slave".
 
My dictionary does not list "dominator", but includes a footnote for "dominatrix" which explains that "dominatrix" is the feminine form of "dominator".
 
If "dominatrix" has a legitimate use within bdsm (and I am not challenging that fact) then I fail to see the argument against the use of "dominator".
 
For me it is like claiming we can use the words "her/she" but not "him/he".
 
We are denying the legitimacy of a word based solely on the fact the word appears in masculine form and not the more familiar feminine form. 
 
I don't know how one can produce an argument to justify that kind of selectivity.

quote:


I don't have issues with the word dominatrix the word has specific meaning and is pretty classy IMO - I do have issue with is being classed as the femine version of 'dominator' - because it is not.  'Dominator' has no specific gender so either males or females could be classed as dominators.

 
See my note above. My dictionary clearly makes the point that "dominatrix" is the feminine form of "dominator". Both are derived from dominarri ("to be lord over") and dominus ("lord"). "Lord" itself is exclusively masculine. Ergo, "dominator" is also exclusively masculine, requiring the word "dominatrix" to express the concept of a female "dominator".
 

 
The word dominatrix itself referes to the dominating female in a sm partnership, so those in a realtionship that did not practice sm it wouldn't be valuable - ergo if dominator was the masculine class it would only be applicable to sm relationships also.
I was taught that although sometimes words may not have applications in a dictionary there may be a derivative listed - that doesn't mean that dominator is actually a masculine class, but that dominatrix can be female class as a derivative.  It just simply means that there is no direct conterpart defined.  In some words(which is rare), there is no opposite.  Dominatrix is from latin with specific meaning as a noun and does not come from the word dominant.  Dominant is from latin verbs 'to dominate'.  Dominator is a derivative of 'dominate'.

quote:

Try telling that to those who hate to see the word "dominate" used as a noun

I tend to view much of that as spelling errors.  I usually see that word used in profiles or posts by people who have difficulty in spelling correctly and usually have multiple typing errors.  I know for myself(having dyslexia), the word 'dominate' has a strong visual presence and I have had to teach myself not to use it as it is grammatically incorrect, but unless you know that yourself or have been told and do have issues with spelling, and as it is not a word corrected by spelling programmes, it is probably more of an unconscious error than a person trying to be 'dominate'.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 9:18:05 AM   
Isolation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The word dominatrix itself referes to the dominating female in a sm partnership, so those in a realtionship that did not practice sm it wouldn't be valuable - ergo if dominator was the masculine class it would only be applicable to sm relationships also.
I was taught that although sometimes words may not have applications in a dictionary there may be a derivative listed - that doesn't mean that dominator is actually a masculine class, but that dominatrix can be female class as a derivative.  It just simply means that there is no direct conterpart defined.  In some words(which is rare), there is no opposite.  Dominatrix is from latin with specific meaning as a noun and does not come from the word dominant.  Dominant is from latin verbs 'to dominate'.  Dominator is a derivative of 'dominate'.


 
Perhaps a few citations will help:
 
quote:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/domination domination 
c.1386, from O.Fr. domination, from L. dominationem (nom. dominatio), from dominari "to rule, have dominion over," from dominus "lord, master," lit. "master of the house," from domus "home" (see domestic) + -nus, suffix denoting ownership or relation. First record of dominance is 1819; dominatrix is attested since 1561, though not in quite the usual modern sense ("Rome ... dominatrix of nations" [1561]).



Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper


quote:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominatrix

Main Entry: do·mi·na·trix
Pronunciation: \ˌdä-mi-ˈnā-triks\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural do·mi·na·trices 
Etymology: Latin, feminine of dominator
Date: 1971
: a woman who physically or psychologically dominates her partner in a sadomasochistic encounter; broadly : a dominating woman 
 
quote:

http://www.allwords.com/word-dominatrix.html dominatrix
noun (dominat, rices)
  1. A dominating woman; a female dominator.<ref name="COED-pron&defs">The Concise Oxford English Dictionary Eleventh Edition</ref>
  2. A dominant female in sadomasochistic practices.<ref name="COED-pron&defs">The Concise Oxford English Dictionary Eleventh Edition</ref>


quote:

http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/dominator

dominator:
Or: dom / dominant , the person who assumes a dominant or directorial role in sadomasochistic scenario.
Synonyms: active-partner ; corporalist ; left-hip-pocket ; maledom ; master ; sender; taskmaster ; top .


See Also: dominant, domina, male dominant, maledom, female dom,




(in reply to RCdc)
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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 9:51:15 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Thanks for the citations - I tend to study from books so it is always difficult to cite online
I do not know if you have ever studied latin?  When referencing 'Lord' or 'Master' from the latin - 'dominus' is specific to worship - 'Lord and Master' meaning 'God' - not a masculine class, but the deity.  'dominari' is specific to ' dominate' and isn't gender specific.
 
I do completely understand that words evolve, but it is vital to grasp that both the words dominant and dominate - as well as the word dominator are not gender specific.
Dominatrix has specific gender meaning.  Rome is classed as being female - hence cited as the dominatrix of nations.
 
I don't follow sex dictionary conversions as I find them misleading - I tend to cite Oxford as the last say so - I tend to be very literal in interpreting words so a dominator would be one whom considered themselves god.  Which it cool when it comes down to being in an individual relationship - to me, Darcy is a God.  But for a person to claim to all that they are a dominator would be a bit to general for me - akin to 'Master'.  You (generic) have to be that to me to be able to state it - and if you are not - then we(in a generic sense) would not be aquaintances or frends.  Like I said before, I tend to balk at people who say 'I am a dominant' anyway... to me, these people who make such a claim are simply people who have the ability to dominate a minority.

dominate
 — DERIVATIVES domination noun dominator noun.
 — ORIGIN Latin dominari ‘rule, govern’, from dominus ‘lord, master’.

the.dark.

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 11:09:02 AM   
Isolation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Thanks for the citations - I tend to study from books so it is always difficult to cite online

 
Indeed. The citations and other online sources seem to be in general agreement regarding the meanings of these words.
 
I've yet to find sources that support your interpretations.
 
Aside from adding yet more dictionary definitions which you either reject or read quite differently than I there is little else I can contribute here.
 
Thank you for the discussion.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 11:41:00 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation
I've yet to find sources that support your interpretations.

 
Then I must be missing something, because all (save the sex lexis which is an urban dictionary) support what I wrote?  I also quoted the Oxford definition (which is generally classed as thee reference) to assist - and it is easy enough to look up.

quote:

 Thank you for the discussion.


You are welcome
 
the.dark.


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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/27/2008 10:25:20 PM   
wwwkevinww


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation

Reading through the profiles I have seen references to women seeking a "dominate" or a "dominant".

"Dominate" is a verb. "Dominant" is an adjective.

The masculine form of the noun is "Dominator".

The feminine form is "Dominatrix".

Thus the proper usage is to seek a "Dominator" and/or "Dominatrix".

Not that this has any earth-shaking consequences, but I thought some might find this useful.

Peace.


You know, the English language is a living thing, it doesn't stay the same.  People are now to the point that The Dom, short for the dominant one, is now considered a Noun.  Instead of constantly saying the dominant one, its easier to just say Dom or dominant......Often acronyms themselves become words.....like Awol.....Away with-out Leave....

If people use a non-sensical word enough, it actually becomes a word....and they literally put it in the dictionary because it is widely accepted.....

If they haven't put Dominant as a noun already, they are just behind the times....::pulls out his Domly dictionary for BDSMers::

Yep, here, Dominant = noun
yep, here BDSMers =  people who are involved in bondage & discipline, sadism and/or masochism.

I wouldn't worry so much about the syntax as the people who don't act with responsibility when it comes to BDSM.   Sadism and/or masochism is a slippery slope, and people need to keep their appetites in check.....

Most can be taught to enjoy pain, even to the point of wanting more pain than is healthy......

One of the more interesting aspects of control and BDSM is the ability to order someone to cum and they do it, literally cumming on command.  Supposedly, according to Screw the Roses Give Me The Thorns, this only comes if someone was put in subspace.....so they have literally given complete control over....and are thus enabled their master to control them completely.....

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/28/2008 12:46:34 AM   
KLRDan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation

Reading through the profiles I have seen references to women seeking a "dominate" or a "dominant".

"Dominate" is a verb. "Dominant" is an adjective.

The masculine form of the noun is "Dominator".

The feminine form is "Dominatrix".

Thus the proper usage is to seek a "Dominator" and/or "Dominatrix".

Not that this has any earth-shaking consequences, but I thought some might find this useful.

Peace.


As the dictionary goes, you are correct. But language is fluid, and a dictionary doesn't define words as much as it takes a snapshot of a language at a given moment in history. A photo of a river doesn't define the river. Sure, you won't find dominant listed as a noun in the dictionary, but that's because mainstream society generally has no need for a word that means "a dominant person of either gender". The BDSM community does have this need, and the word "dominant" itself was the obvious candidate. If the same need arose in mainstream society, they would very probably "misuse" the word dominant in the same way we have, by treating it as a noun. If that happened, the dictionary would soon reflect the misuse, and it would no longer be a misuse. 
All of us in the community who've abused the word in this particular way would be absolved. :)

I do agree with your criticism of "dominate". There's no legitimate reason to use that word as a noun.

Technically I am a "dominator", but being called one would make me feel like a competitor in a monster truck rally.

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RE: Dominator/Dominatrix - 6/28/2008 12:59:00 AM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline 		When people say "I am looking for a dominate woman" or "dominate man", I tend to think they are typing the word as they have heard it said, not realizing that what they heard was actually "dominant".  "nant" is often mispronounced or misheard as "nate" - not just with this word, but elsewhere.  But to tell me "dominator" is a gender specific word is to deny it's actual neuter status.  For some reason in the world of kink many people have felt a strong need to reinforce societal paradigms by insisting such terms as dominator and dom are male specific - because, well, how could they possibly apply to the weaker female gender?  Therefore, we must give those silly females who think they are dominant a stupid feminized term lest someone might confuse one of them for someone who is actually dominant.  Right?  Give me a break.  No one I play with or talk to has ever used such an awkward term as dominator, and I have never heard dominatrix used to refer to anyone but a pro.  If you are going to lecture us all on the correct usage of terms, you might want to know the correct usage first.

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