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RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 7:01:41 AM   
chiaThePet


Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

The path Couple A travelled to get to Activity Z will have been very different to the path travelled by Couple B. Couple A may have found or created skills/experiences/equipment that mean Activity X is a wonderful enriching experience, Couple B might be terrified of it.


Aw crap, algebra.

I'm ditchin, who's with me?

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 7:01:55 AM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		Geeze, Michael.
 
I thought it was our job to scare newbies.   Not in that sence of course, but in the beginning, I thought the same thing and still do because it is hard to determine what is consensual and what is not consensual. 
 

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 7:06:54 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

I think Michael makes a good point ... often people simulate what they see on the outside without even a thought to what groundwrok went into getting there .. and this is most common from newbies

but it extends further ... people with experience take a look at surface behaviour - think how it would go for them - and then judge the original behaviour based on their context rather than the original context. The path Couple A travelled to get to Activity Z will have been very different to the path travelled by Couple B. Couple A may have found or created skills/experiences/equipment that mean Activity X is a wonderful enriching experience, Couple B might be terrified of it.

Unless you interact first hand with a couple, it is almost impossible to understand or empathise with the dynamic at work, and as such often "getting" what is going on just wont happen. When I try first hand to explain my relationship with DV .. it never works people just dont get it, because they were not party to all the steps it took to get us to here, all the decisions we made and agreements we came to. Therefore imitaing our behavour once we are here is more likely than not .. just going to end in mayhem.


Thanks for the much more elegant explanation!

(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 8:04:42 AM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline 		So what? If someone tries one approach and if it is obviously not appropriate hopefully they learn from it and move on. That's how we learn sometimes - through trial and error. I would hate to be a newbie coming up today. One submissive's perfect dominant is the next one's overbearing jackass. First impressions are very important throughout life. I'd hate to be a newbie dominant trying to decide which fork in the road is the right one to choose today.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 8:24:43 AM   
NeedingMore220


Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

The path Couple A travelled to get to Activity Z will have been very different to the path travelled by Couple B. Couple A may have found or created skills/experiences/equipment that mean Activity X is a wonderful enriching experience, Couple B might be terrified of it.


Aw crap, algebra.

I'm ditchin, who's with me?

chia* (the pet)


Oooh, me, me!  I'll meetcha behind the gym in ten minutes....

(in reply to chiaThePet)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 8:36:20 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Do we really confuse newbies, or is there a world of folks out there with no social skills to speak of?    I have friends that I go wayyy back with who can come up to me at a party and pretty much fondle, whack, or whatever, and it's no big deal.  In what parallel universe would a total stranger think that it was okay to come up to me and smack me on the ass?

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 8:59:00 AM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Do we really confuse newbies, or is there a world of folks out there with no social skills to speak of?    I have friends that I go wayyy back with who can come up to me at a party and pretty much fondle, whack, or whatever, and it's no big deal.  In what parallel universe would a total stranger think that it was okay to come up to me and smack me on the ass?


Hie thee to Texas, for their culture is something altogether different...

Different societies and cultures have different outlooks.  From these small pools we swim outwards, bringing our conditioning with us.  On an individual level, any two people can relate if the desire is there for both parties.

That said, I'll make the mental note not to smack your ass, LadyHibiscus.



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 9:04:35 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Oh Lumus, you can do anything LRF will let you do! 

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RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 9:06:35 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Oh Lumus, you can do anything LRF will let you do! 




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(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 9:30:15 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		I don't know Michael.  As a genuine, bona-fide newbie myself, I wasn't particularly confused by what I was seeing.  Or, more accurately, I didn't make the mistake your suggesting of interpreting without context.  Rather, I'm still trying to figure out the context.  I find myself asking a lot of questions like, "What sorts of subgroups am I seeing?", "What are they seeking?", "What are their goals?", "How long are their plan horizons?" etc.  Once I understand these things much better, I'll be better able to understand their thoughts and actions as it relates to them and their goals and also as they relate to me and my goals.  Those are the questions that are stumping me.  The simpler problem of "wow, this is some wierd shit these people do!!!"  Really, that's pretty obvious neh?  If you're a truly vanilla newcomer (like me... down-home, boring, whitebread vanilla through and through), how'd you get here?  Clearly you knew you were getting into some [from your perspective] seriously wierd shit.  And, kinowing that it's some wierd stuff, it's pretty obvious that you don't understand.  Yes, you're revolted/shocked/whatever, but you knew that going in.

~whitebread dom

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 9:40:00 AM   
Floggings4You


Posts: 240
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline 		I once read a comment by an artist who had been criticized--often brutally--by an art teacher who told this artist that "he'd never make it", "you don't have what it takes to be an artist", etc.  After becoming a fairly successful artist, this guy ran into his former teacher at an exhibit, and confronted his teacher, saying that the teacher had been wrong about him, that he had what it takes to be an artist, after all.
 
The teacher replied that he had told all of his students that they'd never make it. 
 
The students who refused to listen, those who persevered in spite of being told such things, were the true artists.
 
W/we are not going to be able to confuse, or scare off, the serious newbies.  If W/we scare the rest of them, how is that a bad thing?

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 11:51:43 AM   
Daddystouch


Posts: 162
Joined: 10/20/2006
From: South East England
Status: offline 		I think BDSM can be a little confusing, but for me I've never been confused in the sense that I think I can just order people about who label themselves as submissive. No more than I can just fuck a girl because she says she's straight. A person may be submissive, but submissive to whom? 

Maybe you can't scare people out of being dominant/submissive/whatever, but you can scare them out of showing it or getting into the scene I guess...


< Message edited by Daddystouch -- 6/21/2008 11:53:40 AM >

(in reply to Floggings4You)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 12:15:05 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I have friends that I go wayyy back with who can come up to me at a party and pretty much fondle, whack, or whatever, and it's no big deal.  In what parallel universe would a total stranger think that it was okay to come up to me and smack me on the ass?


This is a perfect example...newbies see this behavior (not ALL but some) and think because lots of people walk up and grab your ass that they can too.  Then all hell breaks loose because someone is "violated"..and the drama ensues.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 12:37:43 PM   
NumberSix


Posts: 1378
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

The path Couple A travelled to get to Activity Z will have been very different to the path travelled by Couple B. Couple A may have found or created skills/experiences/equipment that mean Activity X is a wonderful enriching experience, Couple B might be terrified of it.


Aw crap, algebra.

I'm ditchin, who's with me?

chia* (the pet)


It's a word problem, chia......just break it down......

6

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

(in reply to chiaThePet)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 2:29:20 PM   
oblige


Posts: 38
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe it is cuz I like blowhards, but you have never confused me Micheal. <g>

I just read this whole conversation here. I do not see it as the responsibility of experienced folks to overly worry about newbie confusion.  Someone in this thread said newbies should shut up and pay attention--that's very good advice. In any sub-culture it takes time to learn the assorted styles, and there also needs to be an awareness that  unknown/unseen contexts abound in human interactions. 

In face time community, for me, watching assorted D/s couples "be themselves" with thier varied personal styles at munches and events has helped me sort -out what type of Dominant person  I may be attracted to. Some are very bold and flamboyant, some are quietly scary, and many laugh a lot as they do thier best to shock the wided eyed newbies, as they did with me a year or so ago.

Basic social skills and common sense (and tons of studying and visting with more expereinced people) ought to help any totally new to bdsm people navigate either online or in person. It seems to be working for me so far. ~oblige

_____________________________

"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far they can go." (TS Elliot)

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 2:49:21 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		What I am interested in isn't coddling anyone but trying to understand why SOME people have such difficulty  "getting it" when they enter the scene.   Sure, everyone here gets it perfectly but if you read the forums, someone sure seems to be fucking something up.

If I am ever dumb enough to run a group again, or have to do any teaching, the better I understand the things that confuse people, the better I can help them integrate, which is why I am interested.

(in reply to oblige)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 2:59:10 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		As an illustration .. I am in  chat with a really good friend, who is getting into BDSM very gently. She had always had fantasies about it .. but never realised it had real world potential until meeting me.

With her I have to be contantly vigilant that she doesn't believe what happens between me and DV is the "norm" of Ds relationships, and the play she sees me having at clubs and at home is "normal" either.

The dynamics that she is seeing now are helping her develop a scaffolding to hange her own understanding from. Its giving her a context but its not her context. You couldn't cut me out and slip her into my place because she hasn't done the work to get here, she hasn't had the experiences or training or anything that I have had. It would not be healthy for her to start out into BDSM thinking she had no right to her own opinion .. or a safe word .. and that being forced to throw up was romantic. If she gets there on her own one day .. then that is fantastic (and another one for the P list) but she needs to trval the path rather than just jump to the destination.


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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 3:06:15 PM   
NeedingMore220


Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
What I am interested in isn't coddling anyone but trying to understand why SOME people have such difficulty  "getting it" when they enter the scene.   Sure, everyone here gets it perfectly but if you read the forums, someone sure seems to be fucking something up.

If I am ever dumb enough to run a group again, or have to do any teaching, the better I understand the things that confuse people, the better I can help them integrate, which is why I am interested.



Perhaps some of those who aren't 'getting it' when they enter the scene are just social clods and would be clod-like and inept in any circumstance.  You know these people exist.  It's painful to watch sometimes.  I'm thinking of a few people I know IRL who would bluster and be a blowhard upon entering the scene.  They're the type that think they know everything (when they only know about 5%).  Or the ones that have to overcompensate because of their own insecurities or overblown self esteem.

The example someone gave earlier - sitting across from a submissive in a cafe thinking 'It works for Michael' and slapping her - made me laugh out loud.  Sadly, though, this is the equivalent of 'on your knees bitch' emails that we get in our mailboxes (well, almost!). 

I don't think this is something that can be taught or mentored.  I don't think most of these types of people are confused - I think they're socially inept and probably wouldn't listen if a more experienced person tried to show them the way. 

There are the ones that may possibly be so nervous about entering this new world that they behave incorrectly.  They may be overeager in an attempt to fit in.  This is probably the person who can be mentored and guided away from mistaken ideas. 

But honestly, it's not that hard people.  lol  The usual advice stands - read, think, absorb, take your time and communicate with others. 

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 3:15:56 PM   
WhisperSupremacy


Posts: 74
Joined: 4/7/2008
Status: offline 		Just an opinion:

Newbies that have absolutely NO experience and just surfed onto this site for shits and giggles - no fucking clue!!!

Newbies that have entered a bdsm relationship and/or have minor experience prior to finding this website - know the general lifeestyle within there own confidments, but are very clueless to how others use bdsm within their lives.  Not every bdsm relationship is the same, so of coarse some people on here will be scratching their heads with question marks over it.

I myself am still listed as vanilla on this message board, NOT because I have no clue, but because I'm not very social at all,...inside or outside the bdsm lifetstyle.  My switch partner has been involved in the lifestyle for several years experience, and she hates chat rooms and message boards.  I have a couple years experience as well and I'm not fond of boards/chat either, but for the hell of it, I decided to give it a try for once....

(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: How we confuse newbies - 6/21/2008 4:08:01 PM   
chiaThePet


Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

The path Couple A travelled to get to Activity Z will have been very different to the path travelled by Couple B. Couple A may have found or created skills/experiences/equipment that mean Activity X is a wonderful enriching experience, Couple B might be terrified of it.


Aw crap, algebra.

I'm ditchin, who's with me?

chia* (the pet)


It's a word problem, chia......just break it down......

6


6 of 1, half a dozen of the otter.

He who has ears, let him hear, (at least read my lips)

or destiny shall curse them eternally as dumb asses.

The path well traveled, may in fact lead to a fork in the road,

or to a lesser degree, a spoon, but here more than likely, a knife.

Simply said, "Do as I say, not as I do", cause couple A is armed. 

chia* <blackboard jungle>  the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to NumberSix)
Profile   Post #: 40
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