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RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/15/2008 11:50:50 PM   
nyc22m


Posts: 18
Joined: 12/12/2007
Status: offline 		personally, this is a situation i have been in personally...being falsely accused that is and even though no legal action was taken its still a experience that took its toll on my life for alittle while. that being said when rape does take place and i do belive that it happens more frequently then we actually know, its a horribul tragedy that should be punished via castration. But guys have to becarefull there are some crazy girls out there who for whatever the motivation maybe can and will make those accusations....actually i think being extra carefull is good acvice for anyone male or female

(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 12:15:10 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I see your 2 posts and I will raise you 1. First, I sympathize with your situation.

I can do personal. I deal, consistantly, with what is called runners.  At some point they will more than likely encounter sexual assault.  When you are on the streets you are quite vulnerable.  They do not stand a chance in a jury trial. Not one iota.  When you get to a certain age, that will still count against you.

This has led me to believe in what I call, and is not a real term, the serial killer mentality.  I made that up because there are some similarities and its just friggin' evil.  These are transient, hardly noticed if you don't miss them all together.  By all of "societies" norms they aren't even on the radar. What will happen if it goes to trial?  No recourse.

(in reply to nyc22m)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 12:31:52 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		I am a rape victim. Did I report the rape to the authorities? No.  I did better.. I reported it to the bikers I knew that cared about me. 
I know that if I were to be raped again I WOULD go to the cops.Why? Because (a) I no longer hang out with the same group of people that I did back then, and (b)I am much more of a *ahem* 'law-abiding citizen' than I was then.

that rape changed me. in some ways it was a positive change.  I am no longer an easy target. I am stronger, emotionally, than I was (I survived the rape, I can survive anything that someone else throws at me).
It also had negative effects, as expected.

Would I cry wolf?? oh HELL no... I'm not inclined towards false accusations.  Have there been times since the rape when TECHNICALLY I could have called rape? yeah.. but in those cases I accept MY responsibility for the situations (and no, I am NOT saying it was all my fault.. but some of the fault lay in my court).

The job of the defense attorney is to make me look as bad as possible.  THis means, that should I ever have to go into a courtroom and testify against an assailant, alllllllllllllllllllllllllll my history is going to be dragged out, highlighted and paraded for the jury to hear.
This includes the fact that I have a history of drug use/arrests, go to bars alone, wear skirts or shorts, flirt, drink, etc.

Now, I am at peace with my past. The courtroom thing doesnt worry me.  But I can see where it would be a trauma equal to or greater than the actual rape, to some.


ok, dunno if that was at all useful...


as for the OP:

The guy was getting off the bus when he was ..."approached" by the officers.  They would not have prior knowledge of his criminal history at that time.  They detained him based on ..what? the way he WALKED?? his pigmentation??  WTF???

Serious abuse of power, IMO

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Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 12:36:33 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		How would you feel if you lost?

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 12:38:03 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I'm sorry. You were being honest and I was all riled up. Don't answer that.

(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 12:45:33 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		Beth.. fair enough question. 

I'd feel betrayed by the system I was raised to believe in.  ANGRY beyond words. Vengeful.
I know that the legal system doesnt always work as it is supposed to... so I think somewhere in there would be a sense of "what else did ya expect, idiot?"  LOL

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 12:47:07 AM   
nyc22m


Posts: 18
Joined: 12/12/2007
Status: offline 		this is a sensitive topic, rightfully so... being raped i would imagine would not only be scaring but change ones veiws on the world. for that matter being convicted of rape falsely would be life destroying also....and it isent a walk in the park being accused either....this whole topic is a shineing example of how nobody can be trusted

(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 4:07:32 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Be a little more understanding and apathetic. (sic)


No can do.

We are discussing a policy issue. How should we handle these kinds of situations? With such great emotion and sympathy for the victim that it overrides the rights of the accused to a point of absurdity?

Not gonna happen.

Like you or any other man, I have dated a number of women that have been raped. I understand that women have it tough sometimes. I really do. All we can do is try to raise the next generation of young men to be more respectful, That's the real solution. No means no, even in the middle of the act. That's what I teach.

I even tell my slave that no means no to me. It has never happened, but if she suddenly starts crying out no, I will immediately stop what we are doing and find out what's going on with her. I am not willing to make the word "no" one of those things that actually means "please, don't stop!" But our relationship is such that we have many special rules that don't apply to us that do apply to society at large. It's in the nature of our particular kink, yes?

FWIW, I do find the youtube video a little odd. If I had been shot down by the local prosecutor I would hardly head straight over to youtube and make the matter known to an international audience of millions. Did you read some of the comments being posted there? Maybe that would give you a better sense of what this is really about.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 4:16:04 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
I am a rape victim. Did I report the rape to the authorities? No.  I did better.. I reported it to the bikers I knew that cared about me.


As we are discussing a matter of policy, I officially oppose this kind of solution.



As a human being, I think it may be the only real solution. While the justice system may not be able to tell if a woman is telling the truth in cases where the evidence is lacking, I have a feeling that those around her will have a better sense of it.

I won't go into details, but let's just say I have some personal experience with this category of solution. And I would do it again.

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 5:15:33 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		FR~

I just feel sick after reading this thread. I would have thought (hoped) that we would have come farther than this by now.....

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 6:18:15 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Bethnai

Here is the problem, they won't come forward for it. 

Because you will NOT find justice if you don't fit the virginal criteria.

 
That, then, is their problem. And that statement is false. I have read many news articles where a guy was put away for years, despite the girl's sordid past.
 
Here's another point...what you're talking about - the woman's past being dredged up, etc - is not common place. In fact, in many court cases, the defense is prevented from bringing her past into it UNLESS the prosecution uses a tactic that "opens the door" as they say in court lingo.
 
In my opinion, this is the way it needs to be because the woman is essentially ruining a man's life. She's ruining it if he's guilty, she's ruining it if he's innocent. She better be DAMNED sure that it was rape. In order to make certain of that, sure, the court case can sometimes get a little unpleasant for her. But it should be that difficult. It shouldn't be so easy as to say "he raped me" with the man's defense being only his word and nothing else.
 
How else would you defend yourself in a case where you know you did nothing wrong. What's your big tactic in that instance? "I did not, I swear!" That ain't gonna cut it. A man needs to be able to face his accuser and have his people question her. It's the only way, short of cameras on every corner and in every bedroom, that we can be sure justice is done.

(in reply to Bethnai)
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RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 6:54:21 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:  MissMagnolia
I am yet to meet a woman who has claimed rape, so that she doesn't feel bad about having a one night stand. What a ridiculous statement.

 
So, since you haven't heard about it, it doesn't happen? THAT is the ridiculous statement. I have read more than one FORUM message on a site like this, no less, where the guy details a wonderful "play date" and then wakes to detectives the next morning and goes into bankrupcty defending himself against the charges because the girl felt bad about herself for letting him do that to her.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  MissMagnolia
I'd also like to know how, as you put it, women can do things to protect themselves from rape. Like what? Carry a gun? Stay at home after sundown? Not go to clubs? Not wear anything provocative? Don't wear heels, they're too sexy? Not wear make up, she's just asking for it?

 
How do guys protect themselves from being killed, mugged, car jacked, etc? This is a violent, nasty world we live in and it's only getting worse. We are no longer in a society where it is "safe" to go to sleep at night with your front door unlocked. I'm sure women would love to be able to walk down the street in a bad neighborhood at 2 am without fear of being raped. Well that just ain't gonna happen. You KNOW bad people are out there, you KNOW they mean you harm....you HAVE to take steps to protect yourself.
 
I don't like that fact any more than the next guy or girl. I routinely lament about how srewed up this world is and how it needs to shake us off like fleas and start over. The world sucks. The answer to that sucking is not to tempt the fates by deliberately putting yourself in harm's way.
 
I'm an average white guy. You think I would get sympathy if I walked through the ghetto part of town and got robbed and shot by gang bangers? No. People's first question would be "what the hell was that white boy doing in that neighborhood after dark?" Cops looking for drug buyers will pull over a car full of white kids coming out of a bad neighborhood because they KNOW they are out of place. You see it on cops all the time. The cop says to the guy "what are you doing in this neighborhood, you don't belong here, this is a high drug area and you have no business here."
 
And having said that, I will say this. I'm of average build and could probably pass for a slightly larger than average girl should I feel inclined to try (ok, a really ugly, larger than average girl). Do I "try" and then walk down the street in a bad neighborhood? No. Because I know if I did, and had a semi-passable appearance, I wouldn't make it out of that neighborhood alive. That is just how society is becoming these days. It doesn't make it right when a woman is raped, it's just how it is. No amount of crying over not being able to walk outside at night is going to change that. I don't know ANYONE who wants to walk a bad neighborhood at night, not even my best friend who's 6' tall and 200 lbs and works in construction.
 
Would my friend be "asking" to get robbed and shot in a bad neighborhood if he got lost one night? No. Would it happen? Probably. So you know what my friends and I do? We stay the hell out of bad neighborhoods after dark. It's just the way it is. If you know a lion will eat you, you stay the hell out of the jungle, you don't try and tame the lion. That's what the 'bad people' are in my opinion. They are animals. Society and various other factors have degenerated to this. There are animals out there posing as people who WILL do harm to anyone they can. You can stay away from them or you can cry about them being the way they are. Which do you think will keep you safer?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  MissMagnolia
The sad fact is that the majority of women are, as Bethnai said, physically smaller and weaker than a man and therefore more likely to become a rape victim. I do fully understand that men are sometimes accused of this horrific crime when they have not done anything wrong, but I really think that it would be a mistake to believe that the majority of rape victims are lying.

 
I never said the "majority." Again, I said the ones in the types of incidents I outlined early probably are lying. I think a lying woman does just as much harm to real rape victims because they are partly responsible for the courts being the way they are. The liars are the reason why the honest women have to dredge up their pasts in court, because the courts don't want to put innocent men in jail.

(in reply to MissMagnolia)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 7:17:14 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I am a rape victim. Did I report the rape to the authorities? No. I did better.. I reported it to the bikers I knew that cared about me.
I know that if I were to be raped again I WOULD go to the cops.Why? Because (a) I no longer hang out with the same group of people that I did back then, and (b)I am much more of a *ahem* 'law-abiding citizen' than I was then.

that rape changed me. in some ways it was a positive change. I am no longer an easy target. I am stronger, emotionally, than I was (I survived the rape, I can survive anything that someone else throws at me).
It also had negative effects, as expected.

Would I cry wolf?? oh HELL no... I'm not inclined towards false accusations. Have there been times since the rape when TECHNICALLY I could have called rape? yeah.. but in those cases I accept MY responsibility for the situations (and no, I am NOT saying it was all my fault.. but some of the fault lay in my court).

The job of the defense attorney is to make me look as bad as possible. THis means, that should I ever have to go into a courtroom and testify against an assailant, alllllllllllllllllllllllllll my history is going to be dragged out, highlighted and paraded for the jury to hear.
This includes the fact that I have a history of drug use/arrests, go to bars alone, wear skirts or shorts, flirt, drink, etc.



Very well said.

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 7:35:01 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Quick comment: it's tempting to imagine the big bad rapist roaming the streets at night, forcing victims that are strangers to him, but a great majority of rapists are known to their victims - the estimates oscillate between 75% and 80%. Many rapes occur within a domestic setting...




_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 7:38:50 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

And another, another thing.

On this bullshit notion of the horrors of how women are treated for reporting a rape......ok. In some backward ass countries, fine. In some backwater places in this country, ok. However, once this type of assault has happened to a woman, she has what....a very uncomfortable chat with a detective, followed by (in the event of a trial) a very unpleasant courtroom experience. After that.....she's CODDLED by society.  She has shelters she can go to, hotlines she can call. Whole foundations and groups of people who understand that she can go to talk to in order to get through it.

I'll pause here to say I am not downplaying one bit the trauma of a rape. I am illustrating what happens afterward in comparrison with my next thought:

Name me ONE group, ONE shelter....ANYTHING a man can turn to in the miraculous event he's found not guilty of false allegations. Where does he go to stand up and raise his hand and say "Hi, I'm Bill, and I was falsely accused of rape."

The fact is, once he's got that 'brand' he is demonized in society. Even if he beats the charge there are those who say "he was found "not guilty" he was NOT found "innocent."

That NEVER goes away.



Oh yeah, she`s/he`s just having such a good time.All that attention and ego stroking,makes you almost want to get raped.Fun fun.

There`s something amiss with that train of thought.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What do we tell women?Don`t resist,don`t scratch or fight back.Right?

So then,when they come forward(if at all) and there`s no signs of force,wah-lah! No crime.

I`ve heard and believe that 1 out of 4 women are assaulted in their life times.

How many men can say they were falsely accused,or even accused at all?

I don`t know any.And though I`m sure it happens,I rarely hear about a case of false accusation.

I think connecting the two situations, is missing the point.

Sexual assault doesn`t have anything to do with making a false charge.

Of course the rapist is going to say it was consensual.That goes without saying.

And we know what happened when it`s"he said,she said". He wins,she has to suck it up and deal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just discounting a person`s story b/c it`s unprovable in court,doesn`t make the experience go away or like it didn`t happen.

Anyone who wants to look,will see a life interrupted,grades falling,lost friends and depression.those thing`s don`t happen for nothing,they happen because something violent and sadly profound has occurred.

No one want`s this to happen.But it does.

I`m certainly not going to tell people to shut up.To just suffer in silence,b/c our flawed system is weighted towards the rapist and against victims.



(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 10:23:27 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Owner59
Oh yeah, she`s/he`s just having such a good time.All that attention and ego stroking,makes you almost want to get raped.Fun fun.

There`s something amiss with that train of thought.

 
I believe you need to re-read my posts. At NO time did I say anything about it being a good time. I did say, that after the extremely unpleasant courtroom experience, society by and large coddles the victims where no support structure exists for those falsely accused.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Owner59
What do we tell women?Don`t resist,don`t scratch or fight back.Right?

 
I don't know why you would tell them that, unless you want their time in court to be even worse. I see more stories about women who escaped such attacks by fighting moreso than I do those who survived just by going along with it. The old ways of the "survival by appeasement" is no longer valid all the time.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Owner59
How many men can say they were falsely accused,or even accused at all?

 
I've heard numerous accounts and cases. Duke Lacrosse players ring a bell? I've also read personal accounts on message boards as well.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Owner59
Sexual assault doesn`t have anything to do with making a false charge.

 
I think it's two sides of the same coin. You have to have a balance between not believing the woman, and believing her so readily to the point where you require no evidence whatsoever to ruin an innocent man's life.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Owner59
And we know what happened when it`s"he said,she said". He wins,she has to suck it up and deal.

 
Whether she has to 'suck it up and deal' or not, the man's life is still ruined. Regardless of if he's prosecuted or found guilty or not, he's still a rapist in society's eyes.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Owner59
Just discounting a person`s story b/c it`s unprovable in court,doesn`t make the experience go away or like it didn`t happen.

 
I don't believe anyone here is talking about discounting a person's story when it's unprovable. I was specifically addressing those nutty chicks who falsely accuse the guy for no reason other than their own mental issues.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Owner59
Anyone who wants to look,will see a life interrupted,grades falling,lost friends and depression.those thing`s don`t happen for nothing,they happen because something violent and sadly profound has occurred.

No one want`s this to happen.But it does.

 
And if you want to look, in the cases of false accusations, you will see a life completely destroyed. Years spent as an innocent man in prison, marriages ended, jobs lost, suicides. The fallout is no different except that a girl who lies never goes to prison for her lies, only the man does.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Owner59
I`m certainly not going to tell people to shut up.To just suffer in silence,b/c our flawed system is weighted towards the rapist and against victims.

 
I don't believe anyone told anyone else to just 'shut up.' I also don't think the system is weighted against victims. I do think the punishment for those found guilty is a bit light, but other than that....the law heavily favors victims. Ok, so they do have to live through a harrowing trial dredging up details they'd rather no one know. Sure beats years spent in prison as someone's bitch because a woman wanted to get even with you and falsely accuse you of something you didn't do.
 
Also, any system where a man can be put on trial for rape because it took him 5 seconds to 'pull out' after she 'changed her mind' can NOT be weighted against the victim.
 
If anything, it sounds to me like those who falsely accuse have watered down the system for the real victims. As I said before, I'm just waiting for the day when you just look at a woman and find yourself on your way to prison for rape. 
 
I once had sex with a girl who told me she loved me as we were coming down from our 'moment.' It didn't register in my mind what she said for at least 60 seconds. I guess it's a good thing she didn't tell me to stop, or I'd be in prison right now.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 11:41:18 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
What do we tell women?Don`t resist,don`t scratch or fight back.Right?


Is this true?

I thought people were told to fight back unequivocally - to cry out for help or fire! Kick the assailant in the groin! Hell, they should piss or shit themselves too - let the asshole rapist fuck that mess if they like.

Comments from those running rape prevention programs or hotlines? I won't claim expertise here, instead I will call upon those that have expertise.

What do we tell women to do to avoid being raped? What should they do immediately following a rape?

That would be good to know.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 11:47:24 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Owner59:

Dude, I am going to have to call bullshit on your last post, even before any experts have replied I have found these two links:

How to Avoid Becoming a Rape Victim
http://www.ehow.com/how_8556_avoid-becoming-rape.html

AVOIDING RAPE
http://www.womenandguns.com/wfn/preventrape.html

The suggestion is that you are very much in the wrong. And it bears telling because women should fucking fight back, or run, or both - whatever works. That behave passively shit reeks.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 11:48:49 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:



One possibility is to talk her way out of the situation. Some women have turned a rapist off by saying they were menstruating, pregnant, or had a venereal disease. Others have surprised their attackers with some repulsive physical act such as vomiting, urinating, defecating, belching or fainting.

Behaving in a friendly, solicitous manner and gaining a potential rapist’s confidence has been used successfully by some women. Complimenting him and appearing to go along with his advances will sometimes cause the rapist to relax and perhaps give the woman an opportunity to escape. However, for some rapists, such behavior may be encouraging.

Verbal self defense may be effective with many potential rapists. To succeed in talking one’s way out of a sexual assault, a woman must have confidence in herself and her ability to gain control of a situation. Often though, a woman does not have the opportunity to use her verbal skills or she finds that words have not worked in dissuading the rapist.

Physical self defense is an option with which some women may never feel comfortable. Electing to submit to a rapist, rather than risk injury or even death is a legitimate choice. Females have been taught from birth not to fight or even rough house, and therefore, find physical resistance impossible.

If a woman chooses to defend herself by force, she must be certain that she can hurt a man badly enough to stop him—merely inflicting pain is not sufficient. The nose, eyes, and throat are particularly vulnerable and susceptible to  pain, whereas striking a man on the arm or head is virtually useless.



http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1981/3/81.03.06.x.html#d

It all depends on circumstances...

_____________________________



(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Breaking my heart....seriously - 5/16/2008 12:02:26 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		   Yup,and since 8 out of ten attacks come from a date,a friend,a family member,friends of friends and friends of family and other associates,there isn`t always an out or a way to screen the people in your life.

In those cases(most cases),there`s no sweet talk`n or talking of any sort.

Women are particularly disadvantaged because of size,strength and the fact that they`re targets.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And yes Sugar,women are advised to not resist an attacker w/ a weapon.

Someone w/ a gun or knife will most likely use them.

A 200 lb. man won`t need a weapon,other than his hands and weight to overpower a 100 - 125 lb. female.

What do you if you`ve been drugged or had to much to drink?

In the best case ,a victim can scratch up or bite an attacker and have a better case in court.A lot of good that`ll do them,after the fact or after getting stabbed .

Women,people in general,don`t operate or think straight under attack.

The mind goes into a kind of shock mode where clear thinking is rare.Unless a response is trained and trained in, over and over,most times people will react with fear,surprise and throat choking paralysis.

By the time a victim has time to think,it`s to late.

Again,this isn`t the movies,with a monstrous retch hunting down females in public.

Most of these attacks come from people already in their lives and happen in private.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/16/2008 12:37:34 PM >

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 60
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