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honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 6:54:05 AM

hissweetbella

Posts: 52
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline

This is my first D/s relationship, though i have been involved in S&M for nearly a decade. i have been owned now for nearly six months, and was his submissive for a year and a half before that. i thought i had covered all the bases, gotten to know him well, done all the "right" things in making the decision to be his property. It isn't a commitment i take lightly, and i love him dearly.

The problem is i am a very straightforward person.  i am finding out, little by little, that Sir is not. He says himself he is passive-aggressive and manipulative. i'm having a lot of trouble learning to deal with this. It is almost like i don't know him at times.  This was not something he showed when we met, and he says himself he is just now starting to let me see that side of him. It is not something i am dealing with well.

How does a slave maintain integrity in her place within the relationship but still be assertive in not permitting (i know, not a slave-like word) her Sir to manipulate her rather than directly dealing with an issue?

Please, don't be quick to say it is a case of incompatibility.  Even if that is the case, i have commited to being owned by him and don't believe it is honorable to leave just because there are some problems. i believe all efforts should be exhausted before even considering disolving the relationship.

i am looking forward to all your comments.

Post #: 1

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 7:04:03 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Is he committed to changing these behaviors? If so, find him a therapist.

Basically, it's his problem. He lied to you about it in the beginning. It isn't your problem to deal with. It's his. Detach from him owning the consequences. For example he asks you to choose which restaurant to go to. You pick a Mexican one. He doesn't say "Sorry, would you mind if we go someplace less spicy". Instead he goes and picks at the food and is snarky. It is not your problem, you shouldn't be apologizing and offering to get yours to go so he can get something else. It also isn't your problem to rush home and cook for him. It is your responsibility to say straight out "If you didn't want this, why didn't you say so?" and "I am seriously furious with you deliberately ruining my one evening out for the week. How dare you?"

You don't yell and scream, you don't downplay your reaction. You express your feelings openly and in the utmost terms so he cannot lie to himself. And then you allow him to fix the situation he caused. Because anything else is enabling him in his bad habits just as giving money to a heroin addict is enabling that bad habit.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to hissweetbella)

Post #: 2

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 7:05:10 AM

abcbsex

Posts: 478
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline

I think defeating the passive-aggressiveness is a personal battle that he'll benefit from winning. If he sees it as a problem, I'd say that you two can work it out in your agreement that he'll present problems to you as soon as they come up, instead of being passive-aggressive about it. Doms need to be up front with their subs about problems or the sub could end up feeling the repercussions for things they are confused about. that's not cool.

If he doesn't see it as a problem, tell him you do and in order to be his sub you need open communication and that you'll refuse to feel bad about something until he talks to you openly about it. That's one boundary that results in a happy relationship, bdsm or vanilla.

(in reply to hissweetbella)

Post #: 3

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 7:20:16 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
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Herein lies the problem with clingons. They won't move on till they become bitter towards all Doms and the lifestyle in general.

(in reply to abcbsex)

Post #: 4

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 7:22:38 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Herein lies the problem with clingons. They won't move on till they become bitter towards all Doms and the lifestyle in general.

Sad but true.

It also points out why we should not stay committed to those who are not equally committed to us and to making the relationship work.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 5

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 7:27:01 AM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

Tell him that it bothers you, and he will be looking for another girlfriend if he doesn't knock it off. And that you are getting tired of repeating yourself.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to hissweetbella)

Post #: 6

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 7:48:17 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

I come down on this regarding the dominant in the same manner as I do the submissive: you are not his therapist. You have told him he has a problem that is making the dynamic that much more difficult for you. He has admitted to having the problem himself. Fine, then as a dominant, it is his job to take steps to correct it. Certainly he must know that passive-aggressive behavior is viewed poorly by most people and is especially unattractive in a dominant...MY OPINION. If a dominant is about honesty and communication and transparency for his submissive, then how is this behavior from him O.K. in any manner?

I also agree with Dnomyar...at a certain point, it has to be clear to him that you will leave if things do not change. Staying with him while he is making an honest effort to change his behavior, either through counseling with all the exercises that go with it or through self-work (reading the appropriate source matter and putting the ideas into action) is one thing...staying with him when all he offers is the perspective that "this is me, deal with it" and having him rely on your own ethics and moral/relationship code to keep you there is not. Relationships are about both partners giving, whether they be a D/s dynamic or any dynamic and when only one is committed to correcting behaviors that impact the dynamic in a negative way, then sooner or later, the other partner is going to end up embittered but still there, embittered and gone whilst carrying all the baggage from this dynamic over into the next one and shading that dominant with this dominant's failure, or gone in time to save themselves and their outlook. Which do you choose to have?

(in reply to hissweetbella)

Post #: 7

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 8:01:14 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

My ex, "the creature," is the poster boy for passive aggressiveness. If I came across another I would be airborne I'd be running away so fast.

The thing is, some of the most foundational elements of a relationship--communication, openess, trust--are pretty impossible with a passive aggressive. They tend to be obstructionist and they often don't know why or even that they are doing it. They tend to lie, they over promise and under deliver, they contiuously befuddle the relationship with ambiguity. They sulk. They create drama to maintain emotional distance. They blame their other for everything, thus any significant change is also incredibly difficult; they don't have a problem, you do.

I understand you are commited to staying with this man, but I encourage you to learn as much as you can about passive aggressiveness and how you may cope with it.

Good wishes,

Tee

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to hissweetbella)

Post #: 8

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 8:06:06 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

Questions back to you, hissweetbella.

Could you honestly have consented to be his if he was not being honest and truthful with you about himself?

Could it be that you consent to be the property of his projected character and not of the man himself?

When he stops being that character hasn't he all ready destroyed your contract himself by not living up to the agreement?

So I don't think your situation is how to do you stay in that contract but do you and he want to renegotiate a new contract?

I'm not saying you are incapable I'm saying that you aren't currently owned by the person you thought you were when you consented and now you both need to decide what to do next.

(I'm using contract here not as an object or legal document but a symbol for your agreement to be his property and he your owner)

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 4/15/2008 8:07:00 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to hissweetbella)

Post #: 9

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 8:07:54 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

Mmmm befuddle, ambiguity, obstructionist. Snuggles up to subtee. Hi.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 10

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 8:14:20 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

See, that there's not passive...hi back

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 11

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 8:18:52 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

As the king of passive aggressive behavior I can agree with those who say it is unhealthy and that a person can change. I did.

Now that change wasn't quick, it wasn't easy, and I needed lots of help, but I DID do it and I did a lot of it inside a supportive relationship that was healed and successful.

What DesFIP said is good advice except the following.

quote:

It is your responsibility to say straight out "If you didn't want this, why didn't you say so?" and "I am seriously furious with you deliberately ruining my one evening out for the week. How dare you?"

If you had an issue that you were trying to fix, does the above seem like how you would like to be treated? Is it thhe sort of advice a love one would give? You need to make it safe for him to be vulnerable, us big bad doms don't want to be thought of as defective. She is right that you address it clearly but why not try doing it this way...

It is your responsibility to say straight out "I love you and would eat almost anywhere you asked but you let me choose, is there somewhere you would prefer we go?" and "This is my one evening out for the week, it is really important to me, lets work together to make it wonderful, now what can we do together that we both enjoy. I love you!"

It is important not to accuse using "You" statements. Rather than "you ruined it" say "I am sad". The first way makes someone defensive the second asks for their help or sympathy. Make it clear you want to listen but that he must ask or say what he wants with clarity. Perhaps when he is being passive (and hell, I think sometimes we want a break and ARE letting someone else choose) say "honey, I will eat anywhere, are you sure this is where you want to go?"

In short, you have to provide the safe place for him to learn how to ask for what he wants. I know for me, I could ask "gee honey, I am going to fuck your ass and mouth in some random order" but had trouble saying "no I don't want to go to the store with you" or "I need a hug".

Lastly, cut him SOME slack IF he is trying. In short, you want to shape his behavior, at first reward anything better than his existing behavior and slowly move him in the direction of being perfectly clear and open. So, when he DOES act with clarity, even if you don't like it, let him know, thank him, comment on it, let him know it makes you happy.

Too many people look at relationships as some sort of competition or combat. It should be you two against the world, watching each others back, helping each other out. So, on YOUR end, watch to make sure you make it safe for him when he does ask for things that he didn't previously. Don't take his behavior as an attack on YOU or the relationship, step over onto his side and HELP him be better side by side with him.

Oh, and interview a bunch of therapists, find one that he likes and feels comfortable with. Helped cure me. Still looking for one that can help me with my overwhelming modesty.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 12

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 8:25:26 AM

lanie38

Posts: 120
Joined: 9/14/2007
Status: offline

I find it hard to believe that in two years his passive aggressive behavior never came to light??!!
But that being said...if he deliberately hid part of his personality from you than, for me at least, the original agreement is null and void and the relationship is up for renegotiation...

_____________________________

Don't be so humble...you're not that great. ~ Golda Meir

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 13

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 8:25:45 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

i have been owned now for nearly six months, and was his submissive for a year and a half before that

Considering how many here don't have relationships at all and this relationships is over two years old, a rather wonderful accomplishment and deserves a bit of respect in my opinion.

(in reply to hissweetbella)

Post #: 14

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 8:38:31 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

Good on you for recognizing and changing that which you felt problematic. I beileve it does indeed show honor and integrity to do so.

Plus, you didn't even yell at me! In fact, it's been quite a while since you yelled at me...

hey...are we cool?

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 15

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 11:11:12 AM

hissweetbella

Posts: 52
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline

Wow... thanks for all the responses! It got really busy and i wasn't able to reply to any of them until now, but i will try and answer all the questions that have been asked.

First, yes, a few of the passive-aggressive traits did show up before, but they are small and i can handle those. Little things, like being perpetually late, not calling when he says he will, even the grumbling about not doing/getting what he really wanted when he left the decision up to me. Those things just don't bother me all that much in the grand scheme of things. Sure, they can be aggravating at the moment, but i love him and there are just so many more things we could do other than fuss and argue about them. At the time, i honestly thought that was all there was to it, and didn't really bother to slap the PA label to the behaviors because they weren't all that troubling. i didn't ask too many questions about his past relationships or interact with his friends and family until just recently, and now, i regret that. *Always, always, always, find out about the past!* He does shift the vast majority of blame for the failure of previous relationships onto his past partners, but when listening to him, i can see why they acted as they did. i would be willing to bet anything that it was because they were so frustrated that they didn't see any other way to be heard.

What has come to light in the past few months is far more upsetting. Sir has begun to manipulate (his word) things so that i am not always able to voice my concerns or thoughts. For example, if something is bothering me and i try to speak with him about it - very gently and quietly and NOT in an accusing way - right in the middle of a word or sentence he will grab me and kiss me, physically holding me in place if i try to pull away to finish my sentence and continue to repeat as often as i try to talk about the subject. It doesn't feel good to have physical intimacy used like that to shut me up. Or, he will turn it around on me, even to the point of accusing me of misrepresenting myself or playing games. It is enough to make me want to pull out my hair at times! i try to steer the conversation back on a path of direct communication, but he's much more practiced at this game than i am or ever want to be.

He knows from experience over the past two years that i don't bring up trivial things. i have proven i can and will let little things go. It doesn't seem to matter how i approach him, he always says he is willing and open to hearing me, but then, if it is something he doesn't like hearing, he will stop the conversation in some way, but NEVER by saying simply, "I don't want to talk about this."

Yes, it does feel like he did the bait and switch thing. He promised a lot, and still will talk about those promises, but i failed to get a definite time line from him before commiting to him and now i am afraid it was all just a carrot on a stick. i'm not sure how to stand my ground, refuse to play the game, call him on his behavior, and still maintain the level of respect i wish to show him. At the same time, i refuse to be complicit in the continuation of the worst parts of his behavior, for to do so will eventually destroy the relationship and i love him too much to allow myself to be a part of it's destruction.

Sir has talked about getting therapy occasionally. He has seen a counselor in the past, but says he had a very negative experience. On one hand, he does admit to being both PA and manipulative, but on the other, he has a tendency to use the "Dom card" to avoid the consequences, at least with me. i am looking for concrete ways to not let this happen and to support him and encourage him while retaining the dynamic of our relationship.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 16

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 12:15:54 PM

daddysliloneds

Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

someone who 'knowingly' lies and manipulates another to get what they want, in this case, your sir did that to you to suck you into a relationship, and is being a passive agressive little piss-ant to boot, gets called on it real fast, at the times it's happening, by someone such as myself, regardless of how 'unsubmissive-like' it seems...

if they don't like it, they can find their own way to the door before i bitch-slap them through it...

don't believe me? i'll give you my former play partners nick-name here and let you ask him how his behavior, such as your sirs behavior, got nipped in the butt real quick by me...

needless to say, the outcome was him backing off and apologizing and in the next breath, doing exactly the same shit all over again, and that went on for almost two years...

two years he never once changed his behavior no matter how much i wanted it to change, and for two years there were times i felt like i was the 'man of the house/the dominant'; thus the reason why he's a 'former'!

(in reply to hissweetbella)

Post #: 17

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 12:48:52 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Michael, you're right about not using the YOU thing. However if she doesn't state how she feels clearly enough that he hears it, all he will hear is support and that everything's fine.

As far as physically grabbing you to shut you up, pull back and yell red. And keep yelling it everytime he stops you from talking.

But basically, he isn't going to change. He refuses to get help because he picked a bad therapist before. One, the therapist probably wasn't bad but confronted him on this and two, if you had a bad dentist would you refuse to ever have your teeth cleaned and fixed again? It's a cop out.

I'd tell him that as he isn't the man he represented himself to be, you can no longer consent to be owned by him. That you are willing to try going back to a sub relationship as long as he goes back to acting honestly and above board. If he doesn't, then go back to being a girlfriend. It's an agreement between both of you, either you both have to live up to your word or neither should.

Unfortunately, as long as you take it, he has no reason to go through the long, arduous and painful process required to change. Your decision.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to daddysliloneds)

Post #: 18

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 1:35:42 PM

Kalista07

Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline

i have no opinion on this issue one way or another.....However, i will tell You that one of the best formulas for communicating i learned goes like this:

i feel _________(use feeling word)

When you ____________ (behavior)

Because ____________ (why do you feel that way)

Next time please __________ (request for change).

I'll give you a hint, when you are beginning to use this if you catch yourself saying things like "i feel like" or "i feel that" or even "i feel you" those are thoughts....not feelings..

good luck,
Kali

*edited to add* One of the best things about this line of communication is, in my experience, it eliminate the room for manipulation. It's straightforward and to the point. It also takes responsibility for your feelings...might be worth a try.

< Message edited by Kalista07 -- 4/15/2008 1:36:53 PM >

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 19

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated - 4/15/2008 1:50:57 PM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lanie38

I find it hard to believe that in two years his passive aggressive behavior never came to light??!!
But that being said...if he deliberately hid part of his personality from you than, for me at least, the original agreement is null and void and the relationship is up for renegotiation...

Yea that's my thinking. For whatever reason she has finally picked up its a "glaring issue" and I need to "change Him". And of course now that the honeymoon period is over. It's all his fault. I don't have advice for someone who after 2 years determines that his behaviour is "suddenly unacceptable"

BadOne

< Message edited by SailingBum -- 4/15/2008 2:15:53 PM >

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to lanie38)

Post #: 20

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