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RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/2/2008 8:38:50 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinbakudayo
Have overwhelming manpower that has a plan to respound to a problem before you go up in suspension.


This is a very good point. The Top running the scene has to be able to get you down quickly, safely, and in a controlled manner without your assistance- for example, if you should pass out.

i'm not sure what you mean by the cuffs "cupping" your wrists. Do you mean that they spread out where your hand pulls against them, to spread the pull over the wide part of your hand? If so, this is good... you don't actually want to suspend by the wrists, but by the hands. Since it sounds like you've gotten to play with them beforehand, make sure that they don't put a lot of pressure where the veins run close to the surface of your skin.

As far as shoulders... unless you have a shoulder injury in your past, or chronic problems with your shoulders (in which common sense should say not to do this scene), it really shouldn't be a problem. Your wrists are a lot more vulnerable.

With a caveat- you do not want your weight to be taken up with a jerk, because this can cause dislocation. You should be lifted, or have your weight lowered, gently.

Good luck, and have fun!


< Message edited by petdave -- 4/2/2008 8:39:27 PM >

(in reply to Kinbakudayo)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/2/2008 9:24:37 PM   
SNoB


Posts: 145
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline 		I do rope suspension, so cuffs aren't really my thing.  If you want to know if your arms can do it, go to a local park and hang from a jungle gym, hang for 20 minutes(with your hands together), if you can hang on that long without your shoulders hurting, try it.  Just remember Jay Wisemans thoughts on bondage "Good pain good, bad pain bad" if it hurts, your body is telling you something is wrong.

ALSO, I cant stress enough that you only do this with an experinced SAFE rigger, nothing wrong with being a safety nazi when it comes to suspension.

(in reply to Evility)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 10:26:25 AM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline 		I'd be worried most about nerve damage in the wrist area. Be careful with these types of suspensions (or with suspension in general)

(in reply to SNoB)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 10:52:48 AM   
DS4DUMMIES


Posts: 180
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I never hang someone from wrist for more than fifteen minutes-and only if they have no medical issues with the upper body. Padded cuffs are good if you have them. Longer should probably involve a harness, with some sort of crotch strapping to support the torso.


No...no...no...no crotch strapping for supporting weight. VERY dangerous...

"Harness-Induced Death

Wide ranges of situations require safety harnesses of various types. Workers requiring fall protection, workers entering many confined spaces, mountain climbers, deer hunters in elevated stands, and cave explorers all try to protect themselves through the use of safety harnesses, belts, and seats. What is little known however, is that these harnesses can also kill. Harnesses can become deadly whenever a worker is suspended for duration over five minutes in an upright posture, with the legs relaxed straight beneath the body. This can occur in many different situations in industry. A carpenter working alone is caught in mid-fall by his safety harness, only to die 15 minutes later from suspension trauma. An electrical worker is lowered into a shaft after testing for toxic gases. He is lowered on a cable and is positioned at the right level to repair a junction box. After five minutes he is unconscious--but his buddies tending the line don't realize it, and 15 minutes later a dead body is hauled out. The cause of this problem is called "suspension trauma." Fall protection researchers have recognized this phenomenon for decades. "

http://www.cdc.gov/eLCOSH/docs/d0500/d000568/d000568.html

I do not let my crew members use harnesses that involve the crotch as the major part of the suspension point, due to the phenomenon described in the link above.

Suspension of any sort for prolonged periods is iffy and should only be done with proper planning and equipment, and even then for short durations.

< Message edited by DS4DUMMIES -- 4/3/2008 10:57:37 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 11:55:36 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Wow, I never even knew that could be an issue. But they tended to struggle a bit and work the legs in the few scenes I did that with. I'll definitely avoid that sort of postioning after reading this.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 12:05:52 PM   
FRSguy


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		I wouldnt do it by wrists alone because of the amount force exerted on the tendons and the stretching of the joints there. If you modify your idea a little and place a rope under the arms and around the top of the chest using about four wraps with hands and arms held a distance apart and you could probably do it.  You would use the wrists as well however you wouldnt put any kind of real tention on them (as in they would be held up).  I would also use a not around the wrists that creates a loop for the sub to pull against. The ropes around the top of the chest would blend with a breast harness and would travel from the suspention point from the back. Add some tie points to the ankles to the floor so the legs are spread and some nipple clamps with the breast harness. Add a few clothspins to the outer labia attacked to the inner thiegh using thin cord and you got a girl waiting for a good time... (oh dont forget the hair)... It all depends on the sub though.  My girl is a lightweight so its easy to suspend her.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 12:09:03 PM   
TwistedLeather


Posts: 189
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline 		Speaking from experience... i have bad wrists. Loose tendons according to the doctors. They cause the bones to shift, and i get symptoms from tendonitis, pinched nerves, to whatever else you can imagine. Pain, tingling, loss of use, blah blah blah... and i've been suspended by my hands.

i have some pretty strong wrist splints that are supported all around by steel rods. i put them on and i can't move my wrists by any means except turing them. Cuffs were strapped around them, and crossed through my palm for my fingers to wrap around and grip, then chained to... a chain shoulder width apart. i hated being suspended simply because i don't like not being able to have my feet on the floor, but the braces not only protected my wrists, they also took the strain from the cuffs if my hands got tired and needed to rest for a few.

It didn't bother my shoulders any, but then again i suppose that would depend on how long you were left hanging. The next morning my hands felt like they'd been put through quite a work out and i didn't have any hand strength for it, but i wasn't harmed in the process.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 12:40:06 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Lynnxz, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I personally like to do some strength training on someone before I do arm suspensions.  I like the victim to strengthen their grip by either professional hand strengthening devices or squeezing tennis balls.  I also prefer using a length of hard leather, like you see with archers or midieval re-enactors, to which prevents the digging of rope and or edges of cuffs into the tender skin and on the various feeder veins and vessels.  If you're on a budget, you can use cardboard, which is found at the end of pads of paper.  Just curl around the wrist the solid portion at the palm area--This way pressure is evenly distributed.  I also prefer using an inverted Pelham bit with rubber bit, it gives a means to create a sturdy grip space and ability of the chain to be mounted in two areas--not just one.
 
I also like using panic snaps on all suspended bondage.  I have them in various areas within the bondage.  This way, no matter where I am in position--it connects to a series of panic snaps which can be back up measures to a total release.  For rope, I used knots where there is a piece of rope I can tug and it will release the knot.  I can have a series, where it can be a slow release and grabbing all these ropes--a total release.
 
I am also one who is not fond of leaving someone up for a long period.  Ten minutes for me is good time and knowing each person is different, it is something to which time is added on to grow into that 10 minutes.  Then there will be a change, a rest of limbs and body stress.  I will unwrap the bondage and re-wrap all over.  Yes, its easy to remain bound however, re-wrapping allows the underlying tissues to get their rest also.  If any area is sore to the touch--it means time for a new position of the pressure point and or wrapping. 
 
I do like to have gym mats under the victim also.  If you have none--a mattress off the bed works well.
 
I also like to have any sharp objects, regardless if toy, tool, furniture -- out of a 180 degree space of the victim with 6 feet distance from the body.  Should there be a drop or equipment failure and an awkward fall -- they will not get injured by furniture or something that was obstructing the bondage zone.
 
I also carry two knives and sharp scissors in rope scenes.  Panic snaps are on other types, to which I prefer chain. 
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 1:53:01 PM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES
Suspension of any sort for prolonged periods is iffy and should only be done with proper planning and equipment, and even then for short durations.


Actually, prolonged suspensions can be a very great experience, if both partners know whar they're doing and the time-up is build up gradually. Though I'd say hanging by the wrists only isn't a suitable position for this.

(in reply to DS4DUMMIES)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 1:57:45 PM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

I also like using panic snaps on all suspended bondage.  I have them in various areas within the bondage.  This way, no matter where I am in position--it connects to a series of panic snaps which can be back up measures to a total release.  For rope, I used knots where there is a piece of rope I can tug and it will release the knot.  I can have a series, where it can be a slow release and grabbing all these ropes--a total release.


I hope you use rated panic snaps for your suspensions? Personally, I don't trust them at all, but that's partly because I do a lot of suspensions at clubs and panic snaps aren't moron-proof (that is, they open a little too easily). It's not that difficult to tie in such a way that the bondage can be released fairly quickly, and for real emergencies there's always the knife or rescue hook.

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 4:01:27 PM   
SNoB


Posts: 145
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

I also like using panic snaps on all suspended bondage.  I have them in various areas within the bondage.  This way, no matter where I am in position--it connects to a series of panic snaps which can be back up measures to a total release.  For rope, I used knots where there is a piece of rope I can tug and it will release the knot.  I can have a series, where it can be a slow release and grabbing all these ropes--a total release.


I hope you use rated panic snaps for your suspensions? Personally, I don't trust them at all, but that's partly because I do a lot of suspensions at clubs and panic snaps aren't moron-proof (that is, they open a little too easily). It's not that difficult to tie in such a way that the bondage can be released fairly quickly, and for real emergencies there's always the knife or rescue hook.



I had the same exact thought.  When I read the thing about panic snaps and slip knotts I about crapped myself.  I feel sorry fort anyone who is dumb enough to let you suspend them.  Panic snaps arent load rated, they are of crappy construction, not ment for overhead lifting and for sure not safe for human suspension.  It should be obvious why slip knotts arent a good idea.  The BEST thing to get someone out of rope bondage when something goes wrong is EMT shears, its hard to accidently stab or cut the person in the bondage, even when they are strugling, and even a cheap set of shears will slice through rope without a challange.

(in reply to Guilty1974)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 4:11:54 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Suspension cuffs I hope. Anything else is not safe.

However if you're imitating porn pics, please remember that those models are like that for just the second or two it takes to snap the picture. Before and after, they are being supported by a couple of strong men to avoid damage to the wrists.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 4:18:27 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		I have a set of custonm suspension cuffs, with freaking huge panic clip things at the top. When I bought them, I clipped them to a bar, stuck my hands through it, and jerked around as hard as I could to test them out, even when I had some of my male friends try them out, the naps held, so I'm pretty pleased with them... and I got them in leather to match the rest of my stuff!  *loves Torvea"
I have no doubts about the gear being used, we are using a massive winch that is normally used for tossing steel beams around, so tthats no problem either. My concern was just about my shoulders, but my friend and I have just welded a short suspension bar, that should have my hands directly over my shoulders, instead of together over my head. ^_^

I'm hella excited about this... thanks for all the advise everyone! Twistedleather, that's a great idea about the wrist splints, I may try that out actually :D

< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 4/3/2008 4:23:51 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 4:53:14 PM   
SNoB


Posts: 145
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

I have a set of custonm suspension cuffs, with freaking huge panic clip things at the top. When I bought them, I clipped them to a bar, stuck my hands through it, and jerked around as hard as I could to test them out, even when I had some of my male friends try them out, the naps held, so I'm pretty pleased with them... and I got them in leather to match the rest of my stuff!  *loves Torvea"
I have no doubts about the gear being used, we are using a massive winch that is normally used for tossing steel beams around, so tthats no problem either. My concern was just about my shoulders, but my friend and I have just welded a short suspension bar, that should have my hands directly over my shoulders, instead of together over my head. ^_^

I'm hella excited about this... thanks for all the advise everyone! Twistedleather, that's a great idea about the wrist splints, I may try that out actually :D


Like I was saying, it seemed like you are confident on your cuffs, so just hang from some monkey bars for a while to make sure your shoulders can take it.

Also, dont bet on the winch, they have failed during scenes before, jammed, even the power at clubs has gone out, make sure there is some sort of backup, like a tall ladder, scaffolding, something.

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 4:56:34 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		It's not at a club, it's at a Saw Mill.  ^_^

(in reply to SNoB)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 5:34:06 PM   
SNoB


Posts: 145
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

It's not at a club, it's at a Saw Mill.  ^_^



All the more reason to have a saftey nazi on your team.

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 6:35:26 PM   
sadomasokisti


Posts: 221
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Iceland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SNoB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

I also like using panic snaps on all suspended bondage.  I have them in various areas within the bondage.  This way, no matter where I am in position--it connects to a series of panic snaps which can be back up measures to a total release.  For rope, I used knots where there is a piece of rope I can tug and it will release the knot.  I can have a series, where it can be a slow release and grabbing all these ropes--a total release.


I hope you use rated panic snaps for your suspensions? Personally, I don't trust them at all, but that's partly because I do a lot of suspensions at clubs and panic snaps aren't moron-proof (that is, they open a little too easily). It's not that difficult to tie in such a way that the bondage can be released fairly quickly, and for real emergencies there's always the knife or rescue hook.



I had the same exact thought.  When I read the thing about panic snaps and slip knotts I about crapped myself.  I feel sorry fort anyone who is dumb enough to let you suspend them.  Panic snaps arent load rated, they are of crappy construction, not ment for overhead lifting and for sure not safe for human suspension.  It should be obvious why slip knotts arent a good idea.  The BEST thing to get someone out of rope bondage when something goes wrong is EMT shears, its hard to accidently stab or cut the person in the bondage, even when they are strugling, and even a cheap set of shears will slice through rope without a challange.



I don't like panic snaps because if your sub looses consciousness while suspended, the panic snaps will only enable you to create a heap of limp body on the floor.... hopefully without breaking any bones.

Same goes for cutting the rope.

In my suspension play I try to use a knot (kind of quick release hitch) in which I can release by just pulling the end of the rope and then lower the victim safely to the floor.  I secure the quick release loop of the hitch with the loose end of the same rope.


_____________________________


Pain is good. Extreme pain is extremely good

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 6:39:57 PM   
SNoB


Posts: 145
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline 		Well, my plan has always been, lower them with my hoist, then cut once they are on the floor.  Its never had to happen, and I hope it never will.

(in reply to sadomasokisti)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 10:59:06 PM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sadomasokisti
In my suspension play I try to use a knot (kind of quick release hitch) in which I can release by just pulling the end of the rope and then lower the victim safely to the floor.  I secure the quick release loop of the hitch with the loose end of the same rope.


That's a reasonably safe way to use a quick release hitch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SNoB

Well, my plan has always been, lower them with my hoist, then cut once they are on the floor.  Its never had to happen, and I hope it never will.


But using a hoist (either up or down) creates highly unpredictable forces on a suspended body. So that method too has it's own risks. Besides, most japanese style riggers don't use hoists anyway.

(in reply to sadomasokisti)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Suspension by Wrists - 4/3/2008 11:43:10 PM   
Skully7000


Posts: 377
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline 		one of the history type channels just did a whole show on the science and history of crucifixtions.. and it was really quite interesting... one of the problems with being suspended with your arms over head is that you can not fully exhale all of the stale air...and you actually risk suffocating(Carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs) the position naturally stretchs out your muscles that are needed to flex in order to push the air in and out of your lungs. with those muscles over stretched you simply can't take a deep enough breath.

also mechanical stress and physics states that while your hands are shoulder width apart or closer then each arm will carry half of the total body weight. as you bring the arms further out past shoulder width each arm carries a great percentage of the overall body weight.

IE: for a jesus christ style crucifixion of a 150lb person. the hands are 90degrees to the body(also assuming only the hands/wrist are attached) then EACH ARM will be experiencing 150 lbs of pressure. not 75 lbs each arm... this is because when the arms are spread like that they are not just pulling against gravity but they are also pulling against each other.  

Cheers
Skully

(in reply to Guilty1974)
Profile   Post #: 40
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